bling said:
[SIZE=medium]You start off building on a false premise, so it is easy to see why you would draw the wrong conclusion: You said: “Adam as we know was created a perfect being”. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]The Bible says: Adam was “very good” which may mean as good as can be made, but was Adam “perfect” like Christ is perfect? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]You can take how the Bible uses the word “perfect” where in other places it means: complete, whole, one, together, mature, etc., but not “perfect” like Christ is perfect (God cannot just clone another Christ). Christ is not a created being, but man is. So are there some things God just cannot make from the outset? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Can man become “perfect”, in that man becomes like Christ and if so in what way? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]“Free will” is either necessary or not needed dependent on the objectives:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Why did God make man in the first place?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]What is man’s objective?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]What is God’s objective as it relates to man?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]We can say: “to bring Glory to God”, but a rock brings glory to God by being a rock, so what does that mean?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Can a person not bring glory to God?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]What brings God glory and what does not bring God glory? [/SIZE]
Bling
You said I started on a false premise because I said Adam was created perfect. You have a right to your own opinion specially for one who has no understanding of Scripture.
You are correct to say the Bible said, Adam was “very good.” Did you also know the Bible declared:
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Mark 10:18
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:
that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have
given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: John 17:21-22
Jesus in these verses is equating the believers as one with the Father and Himself. Since God is good, and from your own lips admitted Adam was “very good,” and since God is perfect, so then is Adam also perfect, and in this sense, was he created in the image of God, was good and perfect.
Someplace else in the Bible, we are told that when we see Jesus we shall be like Him. I don't know how all these will play out, but I do know that we should not accuse others of building false premises when they, themselves do not have any knowledge of Scripture. Found the scripture text.
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know
that, when he shall appear,
we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
I John 3:2
Angelina said:
Here also "In Christ", was my reply to your post from "Can You Prove This?....
Hello Angelina
THERE IT IS, THE WHOLE GOSPEL SUMMED UP IN EPHESIANS CHAPTER ONE!
Ephesians Chapter One
is the central theme or teaching of the Bible, but you lost me in the two questions you asked. Obviously, the answer to the first question are those of National/physical Israel, although technically, the early patriarchs were Gentiles, like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses...etc., until God changed the name of Jacob to Israel. The group being referred to in question two are to the Ephesians and specifically to the Gentiles, to which I am included also.
My concerns are not about Ephesians One rather, it is your belief that God's elect/chosen are the people of Israel and the free will believers and you cite Romans Chapter Eleven, as proof texts? Nowhere in Romans Eleven or in Scripture does God speak of free will believers. Where do you read that? We can't arbitrarily just say things without the backing of Scripture.
Many Scholars and Bible teachers have somehow missed the gist of Romans 11:7; 25-26.
Scripture says God was married to physical Israel but time and time again Israel provoked and sinned against God by worshiping other gods, by marrying gentile women (not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers) and many other hosts of fornication, until one day He divorced them.
And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery
I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce;... Jeremiah 3:8.
This divorce took place at the time Jesus hung on the cross when He demonstrated how He paid for the sins of those He elected to salvation before the foundation of the world, when the veil of the temple was rent in two from top to bottom Mark 15:38.
Since that time, National Israel was not favored by God any longer as His people, except for a remnant chosen by grace which is also true for every nations of the world.
Please, read Romans Eleven very carefully, not as others that read it casually like its an ordinary book.
Note how God brought home the point of the condition of physical Israel in verses 7 and 25 as being blind, but a remnant chosen by grace and the rest were blinded.
Verse 25 gives a warning we all should adhere and not be
ignorant of this mystery, unless we are boasting in our own conceits that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, and so all Israel shall be saved...verse 26.
BTW, did you know Scripture speaks of two Israels? Yes, in fact verses 25 and 26 proves it! One is the Physical Israel, which consists of all of the Jews, and the other is the Spiritual Israel, which consists of all believers whom God elected to salvation, both Jews and Gentiles, and sometimes also called the Bride of Christ!
Going back to verses 25 and 26, the meaning here is: until the last of the Gentiles that is to be saved had become saved (fulness of the Gentiles come in), the condition of physical Israel remain as “blindness in part” (see,verses 5-10; specially verse 8).
Verse 26, “And so all Israel (Spiritual Israel) shall be saved! Not Physical Israel as their condition of blindness will remain until the end of the world.
After today, I don't believe you would want to have explained, verse by verse of Romans Chapter Eleven, for your spiritual eyes will see the truth. If not, more prayer to the Holy Spirit is needed.
Wormwood said:
In Christ, I have selected some of your quotes and numbered them to respond to them in order. There is a great deal in your statements that I disagree with strongly.
1. The "elect" are chosen by God's foreknowledge. They are not predetermined by God's arbitrary will, but are the elect who are predestined for glory based on God's foreknowledge of their response to His grace in Jesus. Although I know you will disagree with me here, the term "elect" does not necessitate arbitrary selection by God. There are other ways to view this that you are either unaware of or are failing to mention.
2. Most proponents of free will do not discount total depravity. Total depravity is not proof that free will does not exist. Grace elicits free will, it does not destroy it.
3. Actually this is no where close to the "best illustration in the Bible of free will." This looks like a straw man argument to me. In fact, I have never even heard of Lazarus' resurrection being referred to as proof for free will. Where did you get this? The resurrection of the dead in the ministry of Jesus has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not people have the freedom to respond to God's gift of life in Jesus.
4. No one I have ever read has claimed it did teach free will. Again, this is a false representation of free will proponents. Arminians believe in total depravity. They believe people are dead in their sins. However, they do not believe that God's Spirit and grace act in ways that are irresistible. Clearly the Spirit is resisted in Scripture and people act in ways contrary to the will of God which indicates free will. Of course, this is impossible for those who believe that all acts are sovereign decrees.
5. This is another terrible error in my opinion. The bible NEVER refers to repentance, faith, prayer for cleansing or baptism as a "work." Works in the NT are acts of law people do to establish their own righteousness in addition to or in contrast to the righteousness of Christ. Baptism, repentance, confessing Christ, etc. are God's select acts of faith he calls believers to when they want to embrace the righteousness of Christ. Show me one Biblical text where baptism, repentance, or praying for cleansing are viewed as works contrary to Christ's righteousness. They are means of embracing Christ's righteousness, not means of opposing his righteousness!
6. Where did you get this? Testament is not transliterated as parable. A testament is a will, covenant or agreement established between God and man or a disposition of goods as a result of death. A parable means to "cast alongside." Para -alongside (where we get parallel), and balo- I throw. Parables are stories that are cast alongside a teaching to bring further understanding. One is not a transliteration of the other.
Hi Wormwood
I'm sure there are a great deal of my statements that you strongly disagree with. Such is the nature of man. Here then are my answers based on your comments that you have laid out previously in numerical order.
If God looked down on the corridor of life (if there is such a thing), He would see dirty rotten people sold to sin. Allow me to demonstrate with an example . Here is a kingdom and for some reason all the people rebelled against the king and all were thrown in the dungeon. The king heard their cry for mercy and being he loved and had mercy for his subjects, he went down to the dungeon and began picking this one and that one...that one and this one...etc., and those he selected he set free and the rest were beheaded. How did the king see his subjects? Did the king had the right to choose who lives and who dies?? Did the king foreknow that those he set free would not rebel again or did he choose them arbitrarily because he loved and had mercy on them? When God sets someone free he becomes free indeed.
2. Total depravity
is proof that free will does not exist. Total depravity is well taught in Scripture while free will is man's figment of his imagination and
is not taught anywhere in Scripture. Consider these scripture texts: Jeremiah 17: 9; Ephesians 2: 1-5; Romans 3: 9-12; and many others like it.
3. I did not say the illustration I gave of the raising of Lazarus was referred to as proof for free will rather, I said, “The best illustration the Bible has offered
concerning (not
for) free will.” This is a travesty and a classic example of how people read, specially when they read Scripture...very, very casually. The Bible is full of types and figures, and portraits as we also read about the healing Jesus performed on the blind, the lame, and the sick ...etc. These healings were portraits of man in their spiritually dead condition as spiritually dead as also illustrated in the raising of Lazarus.
4. The problem is with those who take their authority and conclusions from man's work, like, Calvin
Arminius, and Wesley which BTW, even their best works are still tainted by sin, rather, than the Bible.
The Bible alone and in its entirety which is the written word of God is the ultimate authority. Every letter, every word, and every sentence in the original manuscripts were dictated by God to men and they were written in a book, which became the Bible.
5. Maybe I am wrong, but I have yet to see you offer any biblical texts to support your beliefs. You are making me wonder if you really ever read the Bible, as evidenced by not knowing faith is works. Since you asked for just one biblical reference, Well, here it is:
Remembering without ceasing
your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of
hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father I Thessalonians 1:3.
6. I apologize for this one. What I meant to write was the word “translate” in the sense, that the Old
and New Testaments are filled with historical events that contains figures and types and were
parabolic in nature. Hence, an earthly story with a spiritual meaning. It is really difficult at times for me to convey and put my thoughts into words on paper as you probably can tell. I read and understand much better than I write. I am not excusing myself for lack of education.
The problems I see with this type of debate are those who take their authority and conclusions on the works of man rather than on Scripture. The Bible is the only source book of truth.
I've read in one of your posts addressed to HiddenManna that you do not believe in double predestination where God arbitrarily chooses people to be saved and condemned. God does not condemn or tempt anyone to fall under His wrath James I: 13-15. If Jesus had not intervened in our
lives and paid for our sins we will surely die unsaved.
Unless we understand we are spiritually dead and incapable to choose for God, WE ARE SUBJECT TO GO TO HELL..
For as in Adam all (each and every individual) die, even so in Christ shall all (each and every
individual elected/chosen to be saved) be made alive I Corinthians 15:22.
If the second word “all” also have the same meaning as the first, then there should be no one in hell, but the Bible have specifically declared that hell will heavily be populated.
We should all be like the publican of Luke 18: 13:
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but
smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
