Predestination VS Free Will

[rwb]

Jesus did not come to crush people. The devil's seed is not the same as him creating people. All souls are God's. You have yet to add that into the equation....so you are taking a wrong and polarized view...as MOST people will do...rather than finding the correct balance.

No, He didn't! We condemned ourselves when we listened to the serpent and doubted God. God creates the devil destroys! Yes, God says all souls are mine! But He also says the soul that sinneth shall die! In this we don't accept God's grace without also accepting His justice.

Actually Saul was made "a new man"...or "another man". Being born again like Saul was is a calling into a sample of grace, and most will fail the grace of God. God sorts people out by choosing only a few among the many He has called into His presence. Entering the kingdom realm requires a full surrender and costs us everything. Buy the truth and sell it not.

The passage is not speaking of King Saul being made a new man. There is no indication that I am aware of that King Saul ever became a new man. There are only short periods of time where King Saul appeared to repent, and when he did, he again received outwardly blessing from God. But inwardly it appears King Saul was never born again. In the days in which King Saul lived that would have been through believing what the Law and Prophets foretell of the Messiah who would come.

But I do agree that the Apostle Paul who began life as Saul became a new man with a new heart again possessing eternal life through the Holy Spirit when on the road to Emmaus, being blinded he understood he had been persecuting the Messiah, Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Behold]

Put ON the New Man....put ON Christ. Put on His perfection and holiness.

But you forgot to tell them how, again.

Now, this one is going to lead you to Google or to AI to get the answer.....to then come and paste it.
But, you also have your commentaries, so do a little research, and then come and try to explain to these member how they are to "put on the new man".
Should be a riot, to read how you will explain it, @Episkopos ..........but let me guess, you'll tell them to engage a "higher walk in zion" but you wont explain it.

Right?

So, Lets see what you come up with next, and remember you have Google and AI and your commentaries. @Episkopos

See you there...

 

[Episkopos]

No, He didn't! We condemned ourselves when we listened to the serpent and doubted God. God creates the devil destroys! Yes, God says all souls are mine! But He also says the soul that sinneth shall die! In this we don't accept God's grace without also accepting His justice.



The passage is not speaking of King Saul being made a new man. There is no indication that I am aware of that King Saul ever became a new man. There are only short periods of time where King Saul appeared to repent, and when he did, he again received outwardly blessing from God. But inwardly it appears King Saul was never born again. In the days in which King Saul lived that would have been through believing what the Law and Prophets foretell of the Messiah who would come.

But I do agree that the Apostle Paul who began life as Saul became a new man with a new heart again possessing eternal life through the Holy Spirit when on the road to Emmaus, being blinded he understood he had been persecuting the Messiah, Christ Jesus our Lord.

Concerning king Saul...

1 Sam 10:6 And the Spirit of the Lord will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.

9 And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.

 

[Behold]

Of course. There is no "serpent seed" people whereby the devil created a different race. We are all human...all souls are God's. He says...ALL SOULS are mine. You might need a few years or so to wrap your head around that.

Unbelievers are "of your father the Devil".

CHRISTians are of ""Your Heavenly Father"""

It'll take you a "few years" to wrap your head about that, if ever....@Episkopos.

Such confusion. Having accepted a god of your own creation...how different from the God who created you.

What you wrote is confused.....that's true.
Same as usual.

Put your thinking cap on for a moment. Why would Paul tell people who are already regenerated to "put on" the New Man?

A.) Paul is literally talking to the Born again, when He told them to "Put on the New man".

He's not talking to Unbelievers. He's talking to the Church that He planted, in Ephesus......He's talking to His own converts., and to all the born again.

 

[Behold]

Concerning king Saul...

9 And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.

And later King Saul willfully defied and disobeyed God, and went insane, , and ended up being Shot by an Arrow that was imparted to Him by his enemies. Saul's Crown was given to David.
Saul had to fall on his own Sword to keep from being "abused" by his enemies....and they were coming to do it.
Saul's son Jonathan was slain also.

David on the other hand......sinned against God, lost a newborn baby, and was allowed by God to keep the woman He desperately loved in spite of it all.

 

[rwb]

Concerning king Saul...

1 Sam 10:6 And the Spirit of the Lord will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.

9 And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.

This was to show Saul was among the prophets to serve a particular purpose. The Spirit of the Lord came and left King Saul first before he was anointed King, and also during his reign as King. This does not show the heart of King Saul was always for good, for he shows himself to have an evil, murderous heart.

 

[Episkopos]

This was to show Saul was among the prophets to serve a particular purpose. The Spirit of the Lord came and left King Saul first before he was anointed King, and also during his reign as King. This does not show the heart of King Saul was always for good, for he shows himself to have an evil, murderous heart.

I think you are missing the point here. Saul lacked good character...righteousness. And yet he received a new heart and became a new man by anointing by the Spirit. I don't know what it will take to wake up all these people who claim to be untouchable based on a claim of being born again. Saul is recorded as being transformed...and many in the church falsely claim even that level of regeneration.

It is no wonder that so many will be rejected on judgment day...

 

[Behold]

Saul is recorded as being transformed..

Christianity is based on The Cross of Christ that began the NT Church.

No Cross = No Church
No Cross = No Salvation
No Cross = No Grace of God

God's Salvation is delivered to a believer, by "Faith".... as "the Gift of Righteousness", that is the "imputed righteousness of God".

Like this......"Abraham BELIEVED God, and (His faith) was counted by God as Righteousness"...
This is "imputed righteousness" that comes from God, and is not based on works or the Law.

Jesus said "you must be born again" and Saul was not born again.

 

[Lizbeth]

Of course. There is no "serpent seed" people whereby the devil created a different race. We are all human...all souls are God's. He says...ALL SOULS are mine. You might need a few years or so to wrap your head around that.

Not really. Everyone was created by God in His image, but my point is that everyone all fell from that image.....short of the glory. Don't you agree with that? All souls are God's only in the ultimate sense (including the devil). But we were all once children of the devil....of our former father the devil. And all who know not Christ still are. That means being of the devil's spirit, receiving and living by the wrong spirit, the spirit of the world and devil. That is from receiving his seed/word, a lie, and acting on it.....according to the pattern of Eve in the Garden....deceived into eating fruit from the wrong Tree. Not a separate race physically, but spiritually tares that were "planted" by the devil in the field of this world....meaning of his seed.

Hence we needed to be born again of God's Spirit. By receiving and acting on His word of truth. And the bible says if any have not the Spirit of Christ and God they are none of His.

Such confusion. Having accepted a god of your own creation...how different from the God who created you.

The idea of a new man coming from a new heart is good....but not to be confused with putting on The New Man...

Put your thinking cap on for a moment. Why would Paul tell people who are already regenerated to "put on" the New Man?

Are you going to pull off another Jew/Gentile split? Or invent a new diversion?

I'm not confused. According to scripture, putting on the new man means to walk in our new man which as true believers we have already received, and no longer walk in our old man. Put off the former conversation of our old man which is corrupt according to its deceitful lusts (Eph.4) and put on/walk in the new conversation which is in heaven (Phil. 3:20) and of our new man. It's a matter of growing and learning to walk in what we have received, and I agree that is by God's grace, by His Spirit.

 

[Lizbeth]

Yes and agreed. However, the only spiritual battle of the saint is external to himself. Those who struggle with sin are still MIXED. The cross of Christ un-mixes people into a pure and holy walk by the keeping power of God, by crucifying the outer man sin nature that comes from the devil's rebellion...and inherited as a carnal covering among those who are unbroken.

Being born again is not understood in our time. People see it as an end rather than a first step in a very hard judgment on people who have received a sample or talent..and who are EXPECTED to bear fruit with it. Most will fail due to a lack of knowledge of God's ways...they will be fooled by various winds of doctrines.

Why is only the one who received one talent rejected? Why are those who have received more than one talent accepted and rewarded? These one-timers (initial salvation only) never learn to progress beyond an initial grace...thinking that it is something to cherish and preserve without producing anything eternal. ....without seeking God for the FULL measure of grace and BUYING into kingdom life.

Agree with this up to a point......except that even a babe in Christ produces something eternal according to their own level. Out of the mouths of babes He has at the very least ordained praise. But we do need to grow. And that involves being broken and dying to our old man......through chastisements, trials and tribs that we may partake of His holiness. God prunes our fruitful branches to make them more fruitful.

 

[Episkopos]

Not really. Everyone was created by God in His image, but my point is that everyone all fell from that image.....short of the glory. Don't you agree with that? All souls are God's only in the ultimate sense (including the devil). But we were all once children of the devil....of our former father the devil. And all who know not Christ still are.

That is as false as can be. This is your extremist black and white simplistic way to self-justify and take away righteousness from the righteous...to claim it exclusively for yourself.

When Jesus called the Pharisees children of the devil He was being specific to RELIGIOUS people who claim to be RIGHTEOUS because of their actions or beliefs.

Now, who does that at present? Who twists the truth in order to include themselves?

Only the twisters of truth are of the devil.

That means being of the devil's spirit, receiving and living by the wrong spirit, the spirit of the world and devil. That is from receiving his seed/word, a lie, and acting on it.....according to the pattern of Eve in the Garden....deceived into eating fruit from the wrong Tree. Not a separate race physically, but spiritually tares that were "planted" by the devil in the field of this world....meaning of his seed.

Conversion to the devil and his ways is very subtil...and those who think in extremes are easy prey. We are to be wise (subtle) as serpents. But this generation of believers are as wise as sheep...and as harmful as wolves.

Hence we needed to be born again of God's Spirit. By receiving and acting on His word of truth. And the bible says if any have not the Spirit of Christ and God they are none of His.

Don't confuse ownership with acceptance. God's people constantly rebel. Only a remnant of Israel were accepted....just like now...only a remnant of those who are called are chosen. Mankind has not changed.

What is always lacking is depth and love of the truth. Most love themselves far too much.

I'm not confused. According to scripture, putting on the new man means to walk in our new man which as true believers we have already received, and no longer walk in our old man.

This is propaganda based on naming and claiming by a human interpretation...that has only the power to deceive.

You are thinking along religious lines, not spiritual. You are "spiritualizing" which is the carnal version (or soulish version) of truth that applies ONLY to the elect. Most people are NOT qualified to parse the bible. The ego must be put aside to interpret what is written in the bible.

Put off the former conversation of our old man which is corrupt according to its deceitful lusts (Eph.4) and put on/walk in the new conversation which is in heaven (Phil. 3:20) and of our new man. It's a matter of growing and learning to walk in what we have received, and I agree that is by God's grace, by His Spirit.

Not "our" new man..but THE New Man who is Christ.

You can't just take things from the bible willy nilly and claim them for yourself. Children pretend things...but grown-ups who pretend are called hypocrites.

What about the One New Man that makes the Jews and Gentiles One? How can you exploit that for yourself?

 

[Episkopos]

Agree with this up to a point......except that even a babe in Christ produces something eternal according to their own level. Out of the mouths of babes He has at the very least ordained praise. But we do need to grow. And that involves being broken and dying to our old man......through chastisements, trials and tribs that we may partake of His holiness. God prunes our fruitful branches to make them more fruitful.

So you are defending the man who received the first talent of initial grace and did nothing with it...???

If you were wise you would ask...why is there none who received MORE than one talent rejected????

Maybe more talents are given to those who use the first one properly. Do you think?

 

[Episkopos]

The law of righteousness given by God states that we become what we FINISH with...not what we start with. People who justify themselves based on a new birth don't understand righteousness and need to learn such IF they wish to progress and not just bury their talent of INITIAL grace.

The full measure of grace must be BOUGHT. The cost is ALL you have and are. If that is done then we can proceed to the second talent. But unless one returns to God for MORE grace than just a sample, by trying to be perfected in the flesh, God will see the initial talent as being unused...wasted....His purpose not fulfilled in the one on whom He showed mercy.

Many are called few are chosen.

Since so few know the fear of the Lord my words will fall on deaf ears just as my posts cannot be read and understood by the blind.

 

[Behold]

That is as false as can be. This is your extremist black and white simplistic way to self-justify and take away righteousness from the righteous

Only God gives righteousness.

Its '"The Gift of Righteousness"....

Like this......>"Abraham believed God and (his faith) was counted by God as RIGHTEOUSNESS"..

This is = "imputed righteousness" that comes from God not based on works or Law Keeping.

"Its the Righteousness of Faith"..... and every Christian is become "THE Rightesouenss OF GOD...... in Christ".......Paul teaches.

If you die without this ""imputed righteousness", you'll go to Hell.

When Jesus called the Pharisees children of the devil He was being specific t

Everyone has a Spiritual Father.

Unbelievers = The Devil

The Born again = Our Heavenly Father

Now, who does that at present? Who twists the truth in order to include themselves?

You are the most "truth twisting" Gospel denying Cross Rejecting person ive ever met on a Forum in 2 decades. @Episkopos, other then one other one named "Gideon".
He also pretended to have continual "visitations" and he also could not explain Why Jesus keeps a born again Christian saved, if his life depended on it.......same a you.
Exactly the same as you.
You know absolutely nothing about The Cross, nothing about Salvation, and you quote out of context verses from the OT, to try to define your bizarre and Grace denying Theology.
Even your own personal Salvaiton Testimony, has no JESUS in it, no CROSS in it, no forgiveness of Sin, and no Faith in Christ in it.

Im still waiting for you to revise it, and re-post it, having added in all that.........that is missing from your original salvation Testimony.

Soon? @Episkopos

How can a self anoitned pretender like you not revise it so that it tries to fool a theological kiddie here on the forum?

Only the twisters of truth are of the devil.

You have just defined yourself, as you are the very one who stated that Paul's Gospel is "Delustion"... and who but minsiter of the devil would teach that on a Pubic forum that has "Christian" in the Title ?

Conversion to the devil and his ways is very subtil..

And that very conversion happened to you.
Your false gospel proves you are a "convert" to the darkness where the "doctrines of devil'" are created.

..only a remnant of those who are called are chosen.

Every person, Jew or Gentile who believes in Jesus.......having given their faith in Christ to God is : "Chosen in Christ".

The ego must be put aside to interpret what is written in the bible.

Post a verse from the Bible that says "The Ego has to be set aside to interpret the bible".

Geez..

Your theology is hilarious, yet, completling anti-Cross. @Episkopos

 

[Behold]

Maybe more talents are given to those who use the first one properly. Do you think?

You dont need to be talking about "talents" that you dont have.. you need to be explaining why you can't explain how you "walk in Zion".

You cant even list example of you doing it.........
.
So, Try that Mr "Talents".

And here is a hint......"heavenly visitations, and prayer" is not going to work for you as an answer.

So, fake something else. @Episkopos

 

[Behold]

The law of righteousness given by God states

Salvation is not by Law, its by God's GRACE.

God's Righteousness is "imputed" by God.........as "The GIFT of Righteousness".

The full measure of grace must be BOUGHT.

God's Grace is not earned or bought by self effort.... as you falsely teach ....so, your Legalism Theology has failed you again @Episkopos .

Here is the answer..

Christians are "bought with a Price"....they are "BLOOD BOUGHT".

How?

By the BLOOD SACRIFICE OF JESUS on THE CROSS that is the BLOOD ATONEMENT.

That is where a sinner is "bought with a Price"... and that PRICE is Jesus's SACRIFICE.

The cost is ALL you have and are.

God's Grace is not earned or bought by self effort........so, your Legalism Theology has failed you again @Episkopos .

So, Here is the answer..

Christians are "bought with a Price"....they are "BLOOD BOUGHT", and that "PRICE"..
How?

A.) By the BLOOD SACRIFICE OF JESUS on THE CROSS.... that is the Blood Atonemenet

That is where a sinner is "bought with a Price". and that PRICE is Jesus's SACRIFICE.

Many are called few are chosen.

"""Many are called""...= The Cross of Christ is always Calling sinners to come and be forgiven.

= Jesus said : "If i be lifted up (on THE CROSS) i will DRAW (CALL) all people to me".

How are they "chosen"? They are chosen "IN CHRIST">....... so that means they are placed "in Christ" by the new birth that recreates them as a "new CREATION" in Christ".
This is what it means to be "CHOSEN".

 

[Lizbeth]

That is as false as can be. This is your extremist black and white simplistic way to self-justify and take away righteousness from the righteous...to claim it exclusively for yourself.

When Jesus called the Pharisees children of the devil He was being specific to RELIGIOUS people who claim to be RIGHTEOUS because of their actions or beliefs.

Now, who does that at present? Who twists the truth in order to include themselves?

Only the twisters of truth are of the devil.


Conversion to the devil and his ways is very subtil...and those who think in extremes are easy prey. We are to be wise (subtle) as serpents. But this generation of believers are as wise as sheep...and as harmful as wolves.


Don't confuse ownership with acceptance. God's people constantly rebel. Only a remnant of Israel were accepted....just like now...only a remnant of those who are called are chosen. Mankind has not changed.

What is always lacking is depth and love of the truth. Most love themselves far too much.


This is propaganda based on naming and claiming by a human interpretation...that has only the power to deceive.

You are thinking along religious lines, not spiritual. You are "spiritualizing" which is the carnal version (or soulish version) of truth that applies ONLY to the elect. Most people are NOT qualified to parse the bible. The ego must be put aside to interpret what is written in the bible.

Not "our" new man..but THE New Man who is Christ.

You can't just take things from the bible willy nilly and claim them for yourself. Children pretend things...but grown-ups who pretend are called hypocrites.

What about the One New Man that makes the Jews and Gentiles One? How can you exploit that for yourself?

It strikes me as so ironic that you are the one being black and white about this topic. You are making this a matter of God rejecting all who don't attain to a walk in the "higher walk" 24/7/365. He doesn't judge the way we judge.

 

[Episkopos]

It strikes me as so ironic that you are the one being black and white about this topic.

What is black and white is holiness and the higher walk. What people do is lower the standard to "feel" like they are the chosen. The Pharisees did exactly the same thing.

You are making this a matter of God rejecting all who don't attain to a walk in the "higher walk" 24/7/365.

Why do you make judgment black and white? God only rejects those who enter into delusion...who pretend to be something they are not. God goes easy on the humble and God-fearing. He goes hard on those who claim to be rich and saved.

Listen to Jesus.

He doesn't judge the way we judge.

This is what I'm trying to relate to you....but you won't listen...always slipping out of the grasp of the truth...for self-preservation... ergo...ego.

God is looking for faith, not beliefs. He is looking for actual righteousness...not an assumption and claiming of righteousness for oneself based on an ego-centric reading of the bible.

For so many the bible has become a tree of the knowledge of good and evil. IS the bible wrong to read? No, it is wrong to interpret it without the same experience as we read in Acts. Jesus Christ HIMSELF IS the tree of life...not a message about Him.

As long as people don't claim to be something they are not...God goes easy on them. Because you say you see...your sin (iniquity) remains.

Let those who name of Christ depart from iniquity.

 

[Behold]

What is black and white is holiness and the higher walk.

You can't actually define your "higher walk", ... All you can do is repeat the phrase... and sometimes you'll insert a the word "Zion", in a phrase, thats just as meaningless.

You can't actually produce examples of your "higher walk". All you can do is post some OT verse that has the world "righteousness" in it, and then you say......>"see there".

We've noticed this..

God only rejects those who enter into delusion..

You stated that God's imputed righteousness, that is "the Gift of Righteousness" that is Paul's Gospel.........is "Delusion".
So, you entered into "delusion" many years ago which is why you define Paul's Gospel as "delusion", on this Forum, currently.

God is looking for faith, not beliefs. He is looking for actual righteousness..

God is not looking for Righteousness, He's looking For FAITH.

= "without FAITH its impossible to please God"..

God is looking for Sinners to forgive and give them His Righteousness, as "The Gift of Righteousness".

A.) "Jesus came into the world to SAVE SINNERS".

God is looking for BELIEVERS so that He can give them Salvation that is HIS = "" Gift of Righteousness".

Like this... ."Abraham believed God and it (his faith) was counted by God as RIGHTEOUSNESS... and it shall be imputed unto us also who BELIEVE".

= God's "Grace Through Faith"...... "imputed righteousness'....... "Justification by Faith"....

The born again are become "..'""" THE = Righteousness OF GOD IN Christ""""". Paul teaches.

Let those who name of Christ depart from iniquity.

There is no greater "iniquity" then to deny Paul's Gospel.
You'll find this out.

 

[One 2 question]

"And as many as were predestinated unto life believed."
Acts 13:48



"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son... And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."
R 8:29–30 (ESV)

So is this the only purpose God chose certain humans and predestined them, to be conformed to the image of his Son''? Or is there more to it?