Premillennialism contradicts scripture (1 Corinthians 15:50-54) by having mortal flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God when Jesus returns.

[Spiritual Israelite]

You do not acknowledge that because you do not acknowledge that He is omnipresent and all powerful, as God is.

That's right. Jesus is the Word become flesh.

Why do you say you believe He is God when you don't believe He has the attributes of God such as being omnipresent and all powerful? You do not believe He is God as God is defined in the Bible. Do you believe He is fully God and fully man at the same time? It does not seem that you do.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I couldn't access the Christianity board yesterday, so I am catching up today. I explained this for you in an earlier post, but perhaps it bears repeating here. God purposely sent Jesus to the Earth to live as a human being, but unlike other human beings, Jesus was the perfect image of God. John refers to Jesus as "the Word became flesh" and "the exegesis of God." He records the words of Jesus when he tells Philip, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father."

Earlier, I pointed out that Jesus is the ultimate revelation of God, making the divine understandable through human experience. The Gospel of John often emphasizes that seeing Jesus is seeing the Father, highlighting his role as the perfect expression of God's nature. His life, teachings, compassion, and sacrifice serve as a tangible demonstration of God's character.

God's purpose is that we should understand him through his human son, Jesus Christ. His humanity is the critical and essential aspect of his role as "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." Therefore, we understand Jesus' sovereignty through the lens of his humanity. He taught us that he was going away to a "far country" to receive a kingdom.

For this to be true, and we both believe it is, then we must temporarily suspend the notion that Jesus has a divine nature.

You don't believe He has a divine nature at all. You have said so. Why are you acting as if you are only temporarily suspending that notion when you don't believe in that notion at all?

I refuse to suspend the truth, which is that Jesus has a divine nature and is fully God and man at the same time.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You mean because you don't condone or accept heresy? That's not it... <smile>


I'm certainly not "offended" by anything, but I am, as I said, often astounded by the manner in which some (supposed) Christians speak to others, whether or not they are Christians.

Aside from that, to what you say here about the way Jesus talked to the Pharisees and scribes in Matthew 23, we know that Jesus is God, and we know that God is love, right? And we also know that Jesus never sinned, right? So what does that tell you about what He said and how He said it, whether it was to the Pharisees or anyone else? And so then how does that compare to how... some posters here... speak to other posters here? <smile>

At any rate, to all this... you're not Jesus. <smile> None of us is, of course.

I'm not saying that I am, of course, but we are to follow His example. Paul said to follow His example because He followed Christ's example (1 Corinthians 4:15-16).

Jesus rebuked heresy, and so did Paul (read Galatians 3, for example) and so can we.

<smile> All I'm saying is, hey, do what you want, but I say you guys really should quit being so... self-righteous... holier than thou, really <smile> .

LOL. That is very ironic coming from you. You are the one being holier than thou by acting as if you are the chosen one who has to tell everyone else how to behave. Should we be more like you and sugarcaot heresy? I don't think so. But, go ahead and keep deceiving yourself into thinking you are a holy person who can tell everyone else how they should be more like you. if you insist.

..and, well, condescending, condemning, and mean-spirited, even in the face of heresy. That's what I mean by lacking in humility and grace.

If you want to think that rebuke is mean-spirited then take it up with Paul because he said things like "rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith" (Titus 1:12) and "rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee." (Titus 2:15).

It's about bearing good fruit, the fruit of the Spirit ~ love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control ~ and keeping in step with the Spirit (Galatians 5), which of course is ~ would be, anyway ~ the outward evidence of, you know, being an actual believer in and follower of Jesus. <smile>

Yes, it's about being more like PinSeeker, the one who thinks everyone else acts holier than thou while not realizing he is the one acting holier than thou.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Paul is talking about the heavenly kingdom. The church, the body of Christ, will be changed to have a new body and will be in heaven.

In Matthew the kingdom of heaven is the prophetic Davidic kingdom on earth given to the little flock, the believing remnant of Israel. The believers will enter in mortal bodies along with the Gentile nations that blessed Israel in the tribulation. The old testament saints and the believers who were killed in the tribulation will be raised to enter the kingdom on earth.

I'm sorry, but I can't follow what you're saying here. What are the scriptures that you use to support what you're saying here? Show what you believe and why using scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

John said that Jesus is the Word become flesh. As such, he is limited to his human existence. Otherwise, his human experience is meaningless. Jesus is not Clark Kent, able to leap tall buildings on a single bound at a moment's notice. That is Superman disguised as Clark Kent. Jesus is not God in a man suit. He is the Word become flesh, and we are to understand God through the lens of his humanity.

You don't get it at all. While He was on the earth He humbled Himself as a human as Paul wrote about here..

Philippians 2:6 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross! 9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

What you are talking about was only true up until His death and resurrection. He humbled himself "as a man" so that He could accomplish what He came to do. He could have easily used His equality with God to His own advantage and avoided all of that if He wanted, but He did not do that. After His resurrection, He returned to His former position of power "to the highest place" with "the name that is above every name" that He had before He came to the earth with the Father in heaven. That's what you are missing.

Shortly before His death and resurrection, Jesus said this...

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Remember, John 1:1 says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.". Jesus has always been God and was with God (the Father and Holy Spirit) in the beginning. After His resurrection and ascension He had returned to His former position of power in heaven that He had with the Father in heaven. So, to think of Him as only a man is wrong and is not who He sis. He is fully God and fully man at the same time. He IS "God in a man suit". You are wrong and scripture proves you wrong over and over again.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I understand your strategy. You and WPM prefer to engage in a discussion about each other rather than addressing the actual arguments. You choose to shift the debate away from the issue at hand and focus on discrediting your opponents.

LOL. Says the guy who does not answer most of our questions or address most of our arguments.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What did I say about taking single verses out of context?

This is how you answer his 16 questions. How can we take you seriously when you won't even answer one of them? I can understand not wanting to take the time to answer all 16 of them. But, how about answering at least 3 or 4 of them instead of none of them?

 

[CadyandZoe]

He is spiritually ruling on earth right now in the hearts of His people.

I understood this the first time you said it. And I pointed out the flaw in your argument. Since Jesus is currently ruling on earth in the hearts of his people, he is not ruling over all creation.

This is confirming how in His divinity there is no limit to Christ’s presence.

I disagree. Jesus is limited by his humanity, which is why he needed to go away to a far country to receive a kingdom. It doesn't matter how many times you repeat a false idea, it never becomes true.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No! You ducked around the obvious.

How so?

He is (rather) reigning with them over His enemies today as sovereign king.

If that were true, we would see it. Since we don't see any evidence that Christ is in charge, then we can't say that he is ruling over his enemies today.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Do you believe that Jesus, the Word, was God and created all things, as John says in John 1?

The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. As a human being, Jesus is the exegesis of God. We understand Jesus through the lens of his humanity.

He didn't receive a kingdom only to not be able to rule over it for at least 2,000 years.

Why not? Sounds like you are making that up.

He will reward His followers according to what they have done for His kingdom and church the past almost 2,000 years under His rule.

He will reward his followers when he returns.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I understood this the first time you said it. And I pointed out the flaw in your argument. Since Jesus is currently ruling on earth in the hearts of his people, he is not ruling over all creation.

I disagree. Jesus is limited by his humanity, which is why he needed to go away to a far country to receive a kingdom. It doesn't matter how many times you repeat a false idea, it never becomes true.

Why do you claim that you believe Jesus is God when you clearly do NOT believe that? Is God, who created the heavens and the earth, limited by His humanity? No, of course not. If you say that Jesus is God then that means Jesus has God's attributes of being all powerful, omnipresent and so on. He cannot be God without having all of the attributes of God. But, you do NOT believe that Jesus has all of the attributes of God, so you should stop lying by claiming that you believe Jesus is God.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Why do you say you believe He is God when you don't believe He has the attributes of God such as being omnipresent and all powerful?

Because unlike you, I don't believe in the Platonic view that two or more people can share the same substance. John said that the Word became flesh and Dwelt among us. And he, Jesus, is the exegesis of God.

You do not believe He is God as God is defined in the Bible.

Yes, I believe that he is God as God is defined in the Bible. I don't believe he is God as defined by the Council of Nicaea.

Do you believe He is fully God and fully man at the same time? It does not seem that you do.

No. That is nonsensical and meaningless. Jesus is a human man who has representational identity with God the Father. By nature, he is a man. By identity, he is God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. As a human being, Jesus is the exegesis of God. We understand Jesus through the lens of his humanity.

The Word didn't stop being God when He became flesh. He became the God man. He is fully God and fully man at the same time. Christians understand Jesus though the lens of His deity and His humanity.

Why not? Sounds like you are making that up.

LOL. Why not? Why would that be the case? It's insane and ridiculous for Him to be given a kingdom and to be given authority only to be told He can't use it for thousands of years. Scripture says all things were put under His feet (Hebrews 2:8, Ephesians 2:19-22), so He rules over all things whether you acknowledge it or not.

He will reward his followers when he returns.

Yeah, we all believe that. But, what do you think they will be rewarded for? It will be for their faithfulness of contributing towards building His kingdom. He is the King of His followers now and we are in His kingdom (Col 1:12-13) and worship and obey Him now.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Because unlike you, I don't believe in the Platonic view that two or more people can share the same substance. John said that the Word became flesh and Dwelt among us. And he, Jesus, is the exegesis of God.

Don't say that Jesus is God when you don't actually believe that.

Do you believe He created the heavens and the earth, as scripture says God did?

Do you believe that He is all powerful and omnipresent, as scripture says God is?

Yes, I believe that he is God as God is defined in the Bible. I don't believe he is God as defined by the Council of Nicaea.

Stop bringing up some council as if I care about that at all. The Bible defines God as being the creator of all things, as knowing the thoughts of all people at all times, as being all powerful and as being omnipresent. Do you believe that all of those things that describe God describe Jesus? If not, then you do NOT believe He is God as defined in the Bible.

No. That is nonsensical and meaningless. Jesus is a human man who has representational identity with God the Father. By nature, he is a man. By identity, he is God.

You do not accept what scripture says about Jesus. That is very clear. You pretend as if you do, but you clearly do not.

You say by nature Jesus is only a man. Paul would have a serious problem with you saying that.

Philippians 2:5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

Paul said that Jesus was "in very nature God". You contradict that by saying "by nature, he is a man". He took "the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness" but that doesn't mean He gave up being God. That's obviously ridiculous. As if He was God (the Word was God) but then decided not to be God any more and that He would just be a man only? No, that's ludicrous. He is fully God and fully man at the same time, but you deny that.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You don't believe He has a divine nature at all.

It depends on your definition of "divine." Jesus and God share the same character, preferences, values, virtues, and attributes such as faithfulness and patience.

Why are you acting as if you are only temporarily suspending that notion when you don't believe in that notion at all?

It is wise to frame my conversation using language and ideas that resonate with your beliefs and perspectives. By doing so, I aim to create a shared understanding and foster a more meaningful dialogue between us.

I refuse to suspend the truth, which is that Jesus has a divine nature and is fully God and man at the same time.

I acknowledge your unwillingness to suspend the truth. The Council of Nicaea was not the truth, in my opinion. These men were attempting to make sense of the New Testament in light of their Greek Philosophical assumptions, which often proved unsuccessful down through history.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You don't get it at all. While He was on the earth He humbled Himself as a human as Paul wrote about here..

He never stopped being human.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It depends on your definition of "divine." Jesus and God share the same character, preferences, values, virtues, and attributes such as faithfulness and patience.

It is wise to frame my conversation using language and ideas that resonate with your beliefs and perspectives. By doing so, I aim to create a shared understanding and foster a more meaningful dialogue between us.

I acknowledge your unwillingness to suspend the truth. The Council of Nicaea was not the truth, in my opinion. These men were attempting to make sense of the New Testament in light of their Greek Philosophical assumptions, which often proved unsuccessful down through history.

You keep bringing up The Council of Nicaea and the Nicene Creed as if I care at all about that. I do not. I don't follow after the teachings of men, I follower after what is taught in scripture that was inspired by God. I study it for myself. I don't even know most of what is in the Nicene Creed and I don't care.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He never stopped being human.

I didn't say otherwise, but He also never stopped being God.

 

[CadyandZoe]

LOL. This is more noise. You are wanting me to deny plain repeated Scripture, which you are always ducking around and explaining away.

That is not true at all. The problem is that you can't or won't understand the distinction between being granted a kingdom and enforcing that kingdom. You presented passages proving that Jesus has been granted authority. But you have not presented evidence that he is enforcing his rule over all creation and among his enemies.

I don't think so! No chance! This thread is a testimony to the fact that you are fighting with Scripture.

I am fighting your interpretation of scripture and your willingness to accept imaginary evidence as proof.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You keep bringing up The Council of Nicaea and the Nicene Creed as if I care at all about that. I do not. I don't follow after the teachings of men, I follower after what is taught in scripture that was inspired by God. I study it for myself. I don't even know most of what is in the Nicene Creed and I don't care.

There isn't a single person who has studied it for themselves who believes that three people can exist as one "ousia." Whether you know it or not, you were heavily influenced by the Creeds, which were developed in the third century under the auspices of a Roman king's desire for theological unity. Before you condemn someone as a Heretic, get a grip on the issue. If you want to take sides with Athanasius over Arius, first understand the issue at stake. I guarantee that you will decide, as I did, that they were both wrong because they both started with the underpinnings of Greek Philosophy. These men were dueling with dualism.