Premillennialism contradicts scripture (1 Corinthians 15:50-54) by having mortal flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God when Jesus returns.

[WPM]

I do acknowledge that Jesus is God. I don't affirm your belief that Jesus must be divine by nature to be God.

Explain what you mean?

 

[WPM]

If he was enforcing his authority over all creation, we would see it. We don't see it so I think you need to rethink your interpretation of a few verses.

You truly do not get it. In your opinion, divine kingship, authority, power, rulership, and reigning, suggests complete dictatorial control by the monarch over His subjects, without any space for free-choice or rebellion. Is that how Scripture describes God's reign from the beginning? Of course not. This is an invented definition of your own imagination to support your false teaching.

Do you truly think that Jesus is going to be a dictator or a tyrant as He reigns. What do you describe is a cultish kingdom, a robotic kingdom or a kingdom of clones. It is an environment of forced submission. There is no space for human volition or human choice. The Christ you imagine, the kingdom you foresee, is more like Rome under Nero, Cambodia under Pol Pot or Uganda under Idi Amin. Thankfully, this is the opposite to which Scripture depicts. Jesus doesn't rule that way.

This Premil kingdom is so distasteful, troubling and contrary to the character of Christ.

 

[WPM]

Saying something doesn't make it true. Have you read the news? Is Jesus defeating his enemies at the moment? No.

1. Do you believe "The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all” (Psalm 103:19)?
2. Do you believe “the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men” (Daniel 4:17, 25 and 32)?
3. Do you believe that God “worketh all things after the counsel of his own will” (Ephesians 1:11)?
4. Do believe that none “can hinder him" (Job 11:10)?
5. Do you believe “none can stay his (God's) hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?” (Daniel 4:35)?
6. Do you believe that "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil” (Proverbs 16:4)?
7. Talking about the wicked, do you believe "God has put it into their hearts (the wicked) to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.”Revelation 17:17).
8. Do you believe that "the wrath of man shall praise" God and that "the remainder of wrath" He will "restrain” (Psalms 76:10)?
9. Do you believe that "Even for this same purpose" has God "raised" Pharaoh up that He might shew forth His "power" and that His "name might be declared throughout all the earth” (Romans 9:17)?
10. Do you believe that Christ will have “mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth” (Romans 9:18)?
11. Do you believe “He putteth down one and setteth up another” (Psalm 75:7).
12. Do you believe that "the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps" (Jeremiah 10:23)."
13. Do you believe that "The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will” (Proverbs 21:1)?
14. Do you believe that " it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure" (Phil 2:13)?
15. Do you believe that God "frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish” (Isaiah 44:24-25)?
16. Do you believe that "God resisteth the proud" (James 4:6)?
    
    

 

[PinSeeker]

I do acknowledge that Jesus is God. I don't affirm your belief that Jesus must be divine by nature to be God.

Well now that's just weird. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What did I ignore? Why is it so difficult to understand that since Jesus was going away, he sent his apostles another Paracletos? Your view that Jesus is omnipresent is undermined by the Upper Room discourse. If Jesus was omnipresent as you suggest, he wouldn't need to comfort his disciples concerning his absence. He wouldn't warn them about obeying him in his absence. He wouldn't warn them to treat their fellow servants well in his absence. And he certainly wouldn't need to send ANOTHER Paracletos to help them with their mission, IN HIS ABSENCE.

LOL. A better question is what didn't you ignore?

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

You ignored that Jesus said "I will come to you" after saying He would not leave them comfortless and after saying the Father would send them another Comforter, who is "The Spirit of truth" who also is also called "The Spirit of God" and "The Spirit of Christ".

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

You also ignore that Jesus said He and the Father would make their abode with those who love Him and keep His words. When the Holy Spirit is present in someone, so are the Father and the Son because, again, the Holy Spirit is also called "The Spirit of God" and "The Spirit of Christ".

The sentence you quoted, taken out of context, is part of a passage where Jesus warns his disciples about his impending departure. He is going away, and he knows how stressful this will be for them.

The chapter begins

John 14:1-3 Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.​

In this passage, our Lord speaks about dwelling places that are found in His Father's house. Jesus is going to His Father’s house to prepare these dwelling places for His disciples. He comforts them by promising to return and receive them. His intention is to bring them to the dwelling places He has prepared, so that they may be there with Him as well.

This addresses your incorrect belief that Jesus is omnipresent.

He is God! Don't tell me He is not omnipresent! You have no idea who He is! I will not stand for your blasphemy!

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.... 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus was not a Platonist, so when he says that he and the Father are one, he is referring to the idea that he and the Father teach the same things and share the same attitudes and commitments. They are one in purpose, aims, goals, thinking, desires, and commitments. He isn't saying that he and the Father are of the same nature.

You have no idea of what you're talking about. None whatsoever. He is one with the Father because He and the Father and the Holy Spirit are one God.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I do acknowledge that Jesus is God. I don't affirm your belief that Jesus must be divine by nature to be God.

You do not acknowledge that because you do not acknowledge that He is omnipresent and all powerful, as God is. And you do not acknowledge that He currently reigns over all things, as God does.

What does that even mean when you say "Jesus must be divine by nature to be God"?

Define God. Who do you think God is?

Do you believe God, and therefore Jesus, created all things?

Do you believe God, and therefore Jesus, has always existed?

Do you believe God, and therefore Jesus, is all powerful?

Do you believe God, and therefore Jesus, is omnipresent?

 

[WPM]

LOL. A better question is what didn't you ignore?

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

You ignored that Jesus said "I will come to you" after saying He would not leave them comfortless and after saying the Father would send them another Comforter, who is "The Spirit of truth" who also is also called "The Spirit of God" and "The Spirit of Christ".

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

You also ignore that Jesus said He and the Father would make their abode with those who love Him and keep His words. When the Holy Spirit is present in someone, so are the Father and the Son because, again, the Holy Spirit is also called "The Spirit of God" and "The Spirit of Christ".


He is God! Don't tell me He is not omnipresent! You have no idea who He is! I will not stand for your blasphemy!

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.... 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Bro, he ignores absolutely every Scripture text that forbids his doctrine. That is his modus operandi. That is his pattern. As he continually does: i presented clear explicit Scripture and he ducked around it. He prefers his heresy to the truth of God.

Premillennialism contradicts scripture (1 Corinthians 15:50-54) by having mortal flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God when Jesus returns.

Sitting at the right hand of the Father. What do you think that means? Do you think that means He is literally just sitting down in heaven? Do you think He is doing anything significant right now or mainly just waiting for His chance to use the authority He was given almost 2,000 years ago?

www.christianityboard.com

Let us establish an absolute fact: Jesus (being divine) fills all things.

Jesus reassured His followers in Matthew 28:20: “lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”

He also said in Matthew 18:20, “For where two or three are gathered together in my Name, there Am I in the midst of them.”

Of course we are dealing with mysteries but I believe Christ is both man and God. As a man He is limited to a physical body, but as God I believe His influence, presence and power are limitless. When it says (and it does explicitly and repeatedly) that Christ is in us I take that to be a spiritual reality. Let’s be honest we are dealing with God.

Of course Christ was speaking here in a spiritual sense.

He was referring to His Omnipresent nature as God. He was not talking about the actual location of His glorified physical body.

Jesus predicted in John 14:20 “In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.”

Jesus explained in John 14:23, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.”

Paul said in 2 Corinthians 13:5, “Jesus Christ is in you.” By embracing Him in salvation, sinners enter into union with God and become one with Him.

Galatians 3:27 says, “For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”

In Colossians 1:27 Paul sums up this great truth by telling believers, it is “Christ in you, the hope of glory.”

Romans 8:10 says, "But if Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness"

Galatians 2:20 says: "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me"

Ephesians 3:17 says: “that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith.”

You do believe there is only one Christ? You do believe this is talking about the same Jesus that walked the streets of Jerusalem?

Those who deny Christ’s omnipresence contend that these passages simply mean that Jesus is present “by His Spirit.” In other words: Jesus is not really in us, in our midst, or filling all things – as it says. The Holy Spirit is doing that in His Name. They equate this to the job of an ambassador. The only problem is: those verses do not say that Jesus is present “by His Spirit!” They just say Jesus is present!

 

[CadyandZoe]

You deny the deity of Christ. You deny His current kingship. You deny He is reigning over all, including His enemies. You do!

Regarding the deity of Christ, I reject the definition outlined in the Nicene Creed, which is a synthesis of New Testament teachings and Platonic philosophy. I have no reason to obey the teachings of Plato or the Neoplatonists.

I do not deny his kingship. I accept what Jesus said, that he was going away to a far country to receive a kingdom, and that he would enforce his rule when he returned. I believe what David said, that his Lord would rule among his enemies.

And yes, I deny that he is currently reigning over all because that point is self-evident. Look around and see for yourself.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Heb 1:13 KJV But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Heb 2:5 KJV For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak....
"WHEREOF WE SPEAK..."
The writer is referring to what he said In Heb 1:13.
"THE WORLD TO COME,"
It is NOT the present world that is to be in subjection to the one sitting at his right hand, but it is the "world to come".

Heb 2:7-8 KJV 7 Thou madest him [MAN] a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. [HIS FEET!]

SO, how can it be both,
1. All things in subjection under his feet
AND
2. Not yet all things put under him. (???)
How can both be true?
It is because the authority given to the one sitting at God's right hand [ALL AUTHORITY] is for authority over the world to come. He has all authority for the world to come. Only the pre-mill understands this.
Be Blessed
The PuP

Absolutely false. Jesus wasn't given all authority in heaven and earth only to have to wait to exercise it for at least 2,000 years. He works through the hearts of His followers and that has resulted in major changes in the world over the past almost 2,000 years and has resulted in "a great multitude that no one can number" being saved during that time (Revelation 7:9).

Also, as God and as King of the universe, nothing happens without Christ's permission. That is part of His authority. The false Premil idea that Christ can only be seen as exercising authority if He is acting like a dictator and controlling everything makes no sense. That would mean that God has never had all authority since never has He controlled everything that happens in the world. Your understanding of Jesus/God's sovereignty is completely flawed.

 

[CadyandZoe]

When did i say He was not?

You said that he is ruling spiritually in the hearts of his followers. You admit that his rule is limited to that subgroup of people, which is not all of creation.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Did you see her strange posts?

I haven't read them all, but what does it matter? We address each other's ideas and leave motive out of it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Bro, he ignores absolutely every Scripture text that forbids his doctrine. That is his modus operandi. That is his pattern. As he continually does: i presented clear explicit Scripture and he ducked around it. He prefers his heresy to the truth of God.

Any objective person can clearly see that is the case. He is just blatant about it. As if no one can recognize what he's doing. He can't fool us.

Premillennialism contradicts scripture (1 Corinthians 15:50-54) by having mortal flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God when Jesus returns.

Sitting at the right hand of the Father. What do you think that means? Do you think that means He is literally just sitting down in heaven? Do you think He is doing anything significant right now or mainly just waiting for His chance to use the authority He was given almost 2,000 years ago?

www.christianityboard.com

Let us establish an absolute fact: Jesus (being divine) fills all things.

Jesus reassured His followers in Matthew 28:20: “lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”

He also said in Matthew 18:20, “For where two or three are gathered together in my Name, there Am I in the midst of them.”

Of course we are dealing with mysteries but I believe Christ is both man and God. As a man He is limited to a physical body, but as God I believe His influence, presence and power are limitless. When it says (and it does explicitly and repeatedly) that Christ is in us I take that to be a spiritual reality. Let’s be honest we are dealing with God.

Of course Christ was speaking here in a spiritual sense.

He was referring to His Omnipresent nature as God. He was not talking about the actual location of His glorified physical body.

Jesus predicted in John 14:20 “In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.”

Jesus explained in John 14:23, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.”

Paul said in 2 Corinthians 13:5, “Jesus Christ is in you.” By embracing Him in salvation, sinners enter into union with God and become one with Him.

Galatians 3:27 says, “For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”

In Colossians 1:27 Paul sums up this great truth by telling believers, it is “Christ in you, the hope of glory.”

Romans 8:10 says, "But if Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness"

Galatians 2:20 says: "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me"

Ephesians 3:17 says: “that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith.”

You do believe there is only one Christ? You do believe this is talking about the same Jesus that walked the streets of Jerusalem?

Those who deny Christ’s omnipresence contend that these passages simply mean that Jesus is present “by His Spirit.” In other words: Jesus is not really in us, in our midst, or filling all things – as it says. The Holy Spirit is doing that in His Name. They equate this to the job of an ambassador. The only problem is: those verses do not say that Jesus is present “by His Spirit!” They just say Jesus is present!

The scriptural evidence is overwhelming. The only way someone can deny these scriptures is if they just don't want to believe them.

 

[WPM]

Well now that's just weird. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

Yea right! Just tiptoe round heresy!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yea right! Just tiptoe round heresy!

According to him we're supposedly lacking in humility and grace because we don't sugarcoat heresy. Unbelievable. I guess he must be offended by the way Jesus talked to the Pharisees and scribes in Matthew 23?

 

[WPM]

You said that he is ruling spiritually in the hearts of his followers. You admit that his rule is limited to that subgroup of people, which is not all of creation.

Yes. That is only half the story. Why do you exclude the rest? You have to. This is what you do with Scripture also. You doubtless do it with history.

Whilst Christ physical sits enthroned “at the right hand of the Father” in the heavenly domain in His humanity He is not limited to one geographical place. Spiritually, as God, He enjoys all the same omnipresence qualities as the Father and the Spirit. Ephesians 4:10 tells us: “He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens (speaking undeniably about Jesus), that he might fill all things.”

This is confirming how in His divinity there is no limit to Christ’s presence

 

[WPM]

Regarding the deity of Christ, I reject the definition outlined in the Nicene Creed, which is a synthesis of New Testament teachings and Platonic philosophy. I have no reason to obey the teachings of Plato or the Neoplatonists.

I do not deny his kingship. I accept what Jesus said, that he was going away to a far country to receive a kingdom, and that he would enforce his rule when he returned. I believe what David said, that his Lord would rule among his enemies.

And yes, I deny that he is currently reigning over all because that point is self-evident. Look around and see for yourself.

1. Do you believe "The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all” (Psalm 103:19)?
2. Do you believe “the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men” (Daniel 4:17, 25 and 32)?
3. Do you believe that God “worketh all things after the counsel of his own will” (Ephesians 1:11)?
4. Do you believe “it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure” (Philippians 2:13).
5. Do believe that none “can hinder him" (Job 11:10)?
6. Do you believe “none can stay his (God's) hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?” (Daniel 4:35)?
7. Do you believe that "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil” (Proverbs 16:4)?
8. Talking about the wicked, do you believe "God has put it into their hearts (the wicked) to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.”Revelation 17:17).
9. Do you believe that "the wrath of man shall praise" God and that "the remainder of wrath" He will "restrain” (Psalms 76:10)?
10. Do you believe that "Even for this same purpose" has God "raised" Pharaoh up that He might shew forth His "power" and that His "name might be declared throughout all the earth” (Romans 9:17)?
11. Do you believe that Christ will have “mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth” (Romans 9:18)?
12. Do you believe “He putteth down one and setteth up another” (Psalm 75:7).
13. Do you believe that "the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps" (Jeremiah 10:23)."
14. Do you believe that "The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will” (Proverbs 21:1)?
15. Do you believe that God "frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish” (Isaiah 44:24-25)?
16. Do you believe that "God resisteth the proud" (James 4:6)?

 

[WPM]

If he was enforcing his authority over all creation, we would see it. We don't see it so I think you need to rethink your interpretation of a few verses.

1. Do you believe that Christ “is the head of all principality and power” (Colossians 2:10)?
2. When are “angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him,” (1 Peter 3:22 says) now or in the age to come?
3. When was/does Christ become ruler over the kings of the earth, now only or also in the future (Revelation 1:5)?
4. When does Christ reign? After His enemies are subdued or until His enemies are subdued (1 Corinthians 15:25-28)?
5. 1 Corinthians 15:25-28 and Ephesians 1:20-23 tells us that Christ “hath put (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet” and Hebrews 1:8 tells us that “thou hast put all things in subjection’ (aorist active indicative) under his feet.” How could anyone therefore deny He is sovereignly reigning now over His enemies now? How could anyone then relate this fulfilment to an alleged future age after the second coming?
6. When did/does Christ become the ruler of God’s creation (Revelation 3:14)?
7. Do you believe that Jesus has already spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it (the cross)" (Colossians 2:115)?
8. Do you believe that Christ currently “openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth" (Revelation 3:7)?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Explain what you mean?

My intent is to avoid defending my position on this subject here at the risk of having this thread shut down. Perhaps it is best to explain my meaning and then move on.

The doctrine of the Trinity, which is widely accepted in mainstream Christianity, teaches that God exists as three persons—Father, Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit—who are distinct yet of the same divine essence.

I see no biblical evidence to support the idea that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are of the same essence in the way that the Nicene Creed defines "essence."

When the developers of the Nicene Creed used the term "essence" (Greek: ousia), they meant something quite different from how the word is commonly used today. In modern language, "essence" often refers to the fundamental nature or defining characteristics of something—like the essence of a good story or the essence of vanilla in baking.

However, in the context of the Nicene Creed, ousia was a philosophical term used to describe the divine substance or being of God. The Creed was formulated in 325 AD at the First Council of Nicaea to address the controversy surrounding Arianism, which claimed that Jesus was created and not of the same divine nature as God the Father. To counter this, the Creed declared that Jesus was "of one essence with the Father" (homoousios tō Patri), meaning that Jesus and the Father share the same divine nature—fully God, not a lesser or created being.

The concept of essence in the Nicene Creed is similar to how the doctrine of the Real Presence in the Eucharist is understood. In Catholic theology, the Real Presence refers to the belief that Jesus is truly present—body, blood, soul, and divinity—in the Eucharist, even though the outward appearance of bread and wine remains unchanged.

I don't accept the philosophical concept that there is an essence of a thing, "what it truly is," beyond what our senses perceive, as in the case of the Real Presence. I don't believe that the bread and wine maintain their physical appearance, yet their true reality—their essence—has been transformed into the presence of Christ. The Bible doesn't teach this philosophy or anything like it.

Jesus is God, not because he is made of the same stuff as the Father, but because he shares "representational sameness" as the Father. I can explain further but we don't share a common point of reference, which makes it difficult and we are not allowed to promote any other view of the deity of Christ in this forum.

So, I hope you can accept that this is the only post I will make on the subject. I intend to drop the subject and move on.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You truly do not get it.

I get what you are saying. But I don't agree with you.

In your opinion, divine kingship, authority, power, rulership, and reigning suggest complete dictatorial control by the monarch over His subjects, without any space for free choice or rebellion.

It isn't a matter of degree. It's a matter of fact. There is NO EVIDENCE that Jesus is currently in charge.

Is that how Scripture describes God's reign from the beginning?

The Bible makes a distinction between the Father and the Son.

Do you truly think that Jesus is going to be a dictator or a tyrant as He reigns.

He will rule the nations with a rod of iron.

What do you describe is a cultish kingdom, a robotic kingdom or a kingdom of clones.

I didn't describe anything. Are you so eager to be "right" that you are willing to make stuff up?