PREPARING FOR THE COMING TRIBULATION

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Alanforchrist

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Foreigner said:
I have said it before and I will say it again:

There are great and mighty men and women of God who have spent decades trying to determine whether there would be a pre, mid, or post tribulation.

Their motives have never been to support one specific belief, but rather to learn the truth.

Yet these powerful and deeply reverent lovers of Christ all read the same scriptures and many come to completely different conclusions.

Why is that? Is God simply confounding them for a purpose? Is he allowing the devil to influence one group or the other?

I can find multiple scriptures that seem to confirm a Pre-Tribulation Rapture......but I can also find multiple scriptures that seem to confirm the idea that Christ will not return until the very end.

The scripture is taken in context and not "massaged" to try to support a specific agenda.

I would put forth that none of us here are really in a position to confirm once and for all either the Pre or Post tribulation event.

Expect Him to return soon, but don't expect Him to follow your exact timetable.

Keep paying into your 401K, planning for your retirement, setting aside money for your kid's college education, planning on actually paying off your 30 year mortgage, etc.

....but also continue to look to the sky.

If the pre-Tribulation Rapture is true, I can guarantee you will not find yourself lamenting how you choose to spend your money before it occured.




.
There is only one Biblical truth about the end times, Those who believe the Church goes through the tribulation are getting the Elect Jews, The backsliders and the people that come to God during the tribulation, mixed up with the Church.

The second comming of Jesus are in two parts, The first is His Spiritual comming for His Church..The pre-trib rapture.
The second comming is His physical comming with His pre-trib raptured Church to reign.

If you check the Bible, There is no rapture when Jesus Phyisicaly comes, There is no resurrected saints emedietely at His physical comming....So there has to be a pre-trib rapture..FACT.
 

Brothertom

All for Jesus no matter the cost.
May 1, 2012
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"I can find multiple scriptures that seem to confirm a Pre-Tribulation Rapture......but I can also find multiple scriptures that seem to confirm the idea that Christ will not return until the very end.
"The scripture is taken in context and not "massaged" to try to support a specific agenda.
I would put forth that none of us here are really in a position to confirm once and for all either the Pre or Post tribulation event."

Oh Yeah: A "Pan-Tribber"..."IT WILL ALL PAN OUT IN THE END."..Study the Scripture; It is clear, & man up.


Jesus said;
“But immediately AFTER the TRIBULATION of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
And THEN the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man COMING on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

HE WILL SEND forth His angels with a great trumpet and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.".............JESUS............& many, many more. You want to be deluded? You will wake up, & I hope, that as I, we endure the hour of temptation coming, "that will try those who dwell upon the Earth", no matter how much you believe. ot psyche yourself that it will not come. It will.....& it will not be wrath....but a Trial.

I'm done; Massage yourselves & dream on, & twist the simple Scriptures all you want; My hope is that ALL of us endure to the End & meet Jesus with mercy.
 

Alanforchrist

Member
Dec 25, 2007
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Brothertom said:
"I can find multiple scriptures that seem to confirm a Pre-Tribulation Rapture......but I can also find multiple scriptures that seem to confirm the idea that Christ will not return until the very end.
"The scripture is taken in context and not "massaged" to try to support a specific agenda.
I would put forth that none of us here are really in a position to confirm once and for all either the Pre or Post tribulation event."

Oh Yeah: A "Pan-Tribber"..."IT WILL ALL PAN OUT IN THE END."..Study the Scripture; It is clear, & man up.


Jesus said;
“But immediately AFTER the TRIBULATION of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
And THEN the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man COMING on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

HE WILL SEND forth His angels with a great trumpet and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.".............JESUS............& many, many more. You want to be deluded? You will wake up, & I hope, that as I, we endure the hour of temptation coming, "that will try those who dwell upon the Earth", no matter how much you believe. ot psyche yourself that it will not come. It will.....& it will not be wrath....but a Trial.

I'm done; Massage yourselves & dream on, & twist the simple Scriptures all you want; My hope is that ALL of us endure to the End & meet Jesus with mercy.
You can't find any scriptures that says the Church goes through the tribulation period, Because there isn't any.
There are scriptures that say the Jews, Backslider and the people who come to Christ after the Church is raptured, Go through the tribulation.
And that is where you go wrong, People will go through the trib, But not the watching and ready people of God.
Christ's physical comming is right at the very end, But His Spiritual comming for His Church is before the tribulation.

"and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man COMING on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory."
Please note, The tribes of the earth, NOT THE CHURCH.
The clouds are relation to people, So Jesus is comming in the clouds, [His pre-trib raptured people].
So how can the Church be going through the tribulation and coming from heaven with Jesus at the same time??.

When Jesus physically comes back to reign, His saints come with Him, And there is no rapture or resurrection at the physical comming of Jesus, Also, No one goes to heaven when Jesus physically comes again, Yet Jesus said He is coming to take us to heaven..So the rapture must be before the tribulation.
 

Brothertom

All for Jesus no matter the cost.
May 1, 2012
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Bottom of Illinois
OK...Let us try to get out of the box, & let me assume for arguement's sake that you are right....There is a Pre-Trib rapture, & you consider that I might be right with my post-Trib views......If you are right in the End....I am preparing my heart to endure anyhow...& it's OK...I am ready...watching today...waiting for Jesus's return.

However, if I am correct, & am strengthening the Body to endure Tribulation, even unto death....will it affect you to suffer? & will you expect it?...Will you endure to the end? I hope so....& I want to add that no one is going to predict how it will all unfold; it will happen in God's time....with events scattered throughout the Earth in perfect order according to the prophetic Scripture. Man will never get it all just right. We will recognize things when they happen, which encourages the church that Jesus is indeed reigning & ruling.

For the record, I am a Pre-wrath believer. There WILL be a company of world-wide believers When Jesus returns, & there is a period of time that Jesus pours His wrath out upon the Earth that the saints will be protected from, & our attitude should not be to be right or wrong, but saved....& that is to our family, the True Church of God.

"Without Holiness no man shall see God."

Take Up the Cross and Follow Him!

"Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it."

Many will betray Him in that day because they love their own lives more than Him.
 

Foreigner

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Again, there are true, sincere, Christ-loving scholars who have spent their lives trying to find the truth and yet still disagree.
One of the reasons is that there are multiple scriptures that make the Pre-Trib Rapture look correct and multiple scriptures that imply just the opposite with what appears to be the same amount of authority.

When I got saved I was taught Pre-Trib was written in stone, end of story.
But as I delved deeper into the Word I found evidence that is not the case.

But what has been hard is the venom with which both Pre and Post Tribbers here have criticized me and others for not believing their position on this issue.

You stand by your scripture, but in most cases just ignore the scripture that implies the other position, rarely explaining why that interpretation isn't correct.

The only time that isn't the case is in criticizing that person for actually believing their interpretation of what that scripture actually stands for.

I am still waiting on a discussion where point-counterpoint is made without the criticism of the beliefs in the meantime.




.
 

Alanforchrist

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Dec 25, 2007
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Brothertom said:
OK...Let us try to get out of the box, & let me assume for arguement's sake that you are right....There is a Pre-Trib rapture, & you consider that I might be right with my post-Trib views......If you are right in the End....I am preparing my heart to endure anyhow...& it's OK...I am ready...watching today...waiting for Jesus's return.

However, if I am correct, & am strengthening the Body to endure Tribulation, even unto death....will it affect you to suffer? & will you expect it?...Will you endure to the end? I hope so....& I want to add that no one is going to predict how it will all unfold; it will happen in God's time....with events scattered throughout the Earth in perfect order according to the prophetic Scripture. Man will never get it all just right. We will recognize things when they happen, which encourages the church that Jesus is indeed reigning & ruling.

For the record, I am a Pre-wrath believer. There WILL be a company of world-wide believers When Jesus returns, & there is a period of time that Jesus pours His wrath out upon the Earth that the saints will be protected from, & our attitude should not be to be right or wrong, but saved....& that is to our family, the True Church of God.

"Without Holiness no man shall see God."

Take Up the Cross and Follow Him!

"Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it."

Many will betray Him in that day because they love their own lives more than Him.
Why in the world do you want to prepare people for the tribulation when God has said we aren't appointed to wrath or the tribulation??.
Yes we must be ready and serving God at any cost, But God has told us that we are More than conqueors, victorious, Always triumph and overcomers.
Does that sound like a defeated life-style in this age, Or the comming tribulation age??.

Foreigner said:
Again, there are true, sincere, Christ-loving scholars who have spent their lives trying to find the truth and yet still disagree.
One of the reasons is that there are multiple scriptures that make the Pre-Trib Rapture look correct and multiple scriptures that imply just the opposite with what appears to be the same amount of authority.

When I got saved I was taught Pre-Trib was written in stone, end of story.
But as I delved deeper into the Word I found evidence that is not the case.

But what has been hard is the venom with which both Pre and Post Tribbers here have criticized me and others for not believing their position on this issue.

You stand by your scripture, but in most cases just ignore the scripture that implies the other position, rarely explaining why that interpretation isn't correct.

The only time that isn't the case is in criticizing that person for actually believing their interpretation of what that scripture actually stands for.

I am still waiting on a discussion where point-counterpoint is made without the criticism of the beliefs in the meantime.




You haven't found any evidence of the Church going through the tribulation period, Because ther isn't any scriptures that say we are.
You are obviousley getting the Church mixed up with the Elect Jews, The backsliders and the people who come to Christ during the comming tribulation period.
I have explained why your interpretation isn't correct, I have also shown you that the Bible teaches the pre-trib rapture.
 

Foreigner

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AlanforChrist, you have shown me no such thing.
You also make a completely incorrect assumption about the Church and Elect Jews. You couldn't be more incorrect.
You don't know what I believe in specifics as far as Pre Trib and Post Trib because I haven't stated those specifics.
You are in no position whatsoever to make the assumptions about me you have. Period.
Please give it a rest.
 

John_8:32

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As far as the church going through the tribulation, some do, some don't...

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The word here for wilderness is

G2048
ἔρημος
erēmos
er'-ay-mos
Of uncertain affinity; lonesome, that is, (by implication) waste (usually as a noun, G5561 being implied): - desert, desolate, solitary, wilderness.

Means desert. This cannot be construed to be heaven.

Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Water is a type of what?

Rev 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

In this case, I don't think it much of a stretch to see water as a type of armies.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Now, when we read this last verse, it shows that the woman in this case is not Israel or Judah. Where does one go to find the testimony of Christ? Tel Aviv? No, on goes to the church. This is speaking of a physical protection of the church for 3-1/2 years. There is a type in history, josephus wrote about it, the church heard a voice in the Temple on Pentecost 66 AD which said "Let us remove hence." They then migratd to Pella and were spared the decimation that came...

JOSPEHUS:

"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).

Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian:

"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. Few people placed a sinister interpretation upon this. The majority were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world." (Histories, Book 5, v. 13).

Type Antitype

Anyhoo, there is an admonition for us...

Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
 

Alanforchrist

Member
Dec 25, 2007
502
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Foreigner said:
AlanforChrist, you have shown me no such thing.
You also make a completely incorrect assumption about the Church and Elect Jews. You couldn't be more incorrect.
You don't know what I believe in specifics as far as Pre Trib and Post Trib because I haven't stated those specifics.
You are in no position whatsoever to make the assumptions about me you have. Period.
Please give it a rest.
Stop telling lies

John_8:32 said:
As far as the church going through the tribulation, some do, some don't...

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The word here for wilderness is

G2048
ἔρημος
erēmos
er'-ay-mos
Of uncertain affinity; lonesome, that is, (by implication) waste (usually as a noun, G5561 being implied): - desert, desolate, solitary, wilderness.

Means desert. This cannot be construed to be heaven.

Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Water is a type of what?

Rev 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

In this case, I don't think it much of a stretch to see water as a type of armies.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Now, when we read this last verse, it shows that the woman in this case is not Israel or Judah. Where does one go to find the testimony of Christ? Tel Aviv? No, on goes to the church. This is speaking of a physical protection of the church for 3-1/2 years. There is a type in history, josephus wrote about it, the church heard a voice in the Temple on Pentecost 66 AD which said "Let us remove hence." They then migratd to Pella and were spared the decimation that came...

JOSPEHUS:

"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).

Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian:

"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. Few people placed a sinister interpretation upon this. The majority were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world." (Histories, Book 5, v. 13).

Type Antitype

Anyhoo, there is an admonition for us...

Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
The Elect Jews, The Christian backsliders and those who come to God After the Church is raptured, Will go through the tribulation.
Those who believe the Church goes through the tribulation, Are calling Jesus a liar in LK 21: 36.
 

Brothertom

All for Jesus no matter the cost.
May 1, 2012
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Revelation 13:6-8............WE ARE ENTERING A TIME OF WAR, SUCH HAS NEVER BEEN SEEN WITHIN THE CHURCH.

"Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.
It was granted to him..[ The anti-Christ..] to make war with the Saints, & to overcome them."

And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation;

All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.."

I'm confused; HOW COULD THE ANTI-CHRIST OVERCOME THE SAINTS...IN THE MIDST OF THE TRIBULATION..., IF THEY HAVE FLEW AWAY IN THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE?

.................................
"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short."......JESUS.............................

......."A GREAT MULTITUDE which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me,


"THESE ARE THE ONES WHO COME OUT OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION...

[are they Christians?]...& THEY HAVE WASHED THEIR ROBES & MADE THEM WHITE IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB!"

OF COURSE THEY ARE & HONESTLY MANY OF YOU HERE THAT ARE READING THIS NOW WILL BE IN THAT COMPANY; ATTAINING IT BY WAY OF THE GATHERING TOGETHER...AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS, OR THROUGH MARTRYDOM OR DEATH.

"AFTER THE TRIBULATION ."..............JESUS.
"But immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
......AND THEN!...... the sign of the SON OF MAN will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory."....JESUS SPEAKING.
Do you think He was trying to make it clear to us about When?.......................WE MUST PREPARE OUR HEARTS & RESOLVE TO ENDURE THIS TIME COMING....ALL FOR JESUS NO MATTER THE COST......."HE THAT ENDURES UNTIL THE END, THE SAME SHALL BE SAVED."
 

Alanforchrist

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Brothertom said:
Revelation 13:6-8............WE ARE ENTERING A TIME OF WAR, SUCH HAS NEVER BEEN SEEN WITHIN THE CHURCH.

"Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.
It was granted to him..[ The anti-Christ..] to make war with the Saints, & to overcome them."

And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation;

All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.."

I'm confused; HOW COULD THE ANTI-CHRIST OVERCOME THE SAINTS...IN THE MIDST OF THE TRIBULATION..., IF THEY HAVE FLEW AWAY IN THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE?

.................................
"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short."......JESUS.............................

......."A GREAT MULTITUDE which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me,


"THESE ARE THE ONES WHO COME OUT OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION...

[are they Christians?]...& THEY HAVE WASHED THEIR ROBES & MADE THEM WHITE IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB!"

OF COURSE THEY ARE & HONESTLY MANY OF YOU HERE THAT ARE READING THIS NOW WILL BE IN THAT COMPANY; ATTAINING IT BY WAY OF THE GATHERING TOGETHER...AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS, OR THROUGH MARTRYDOM OR DEATH.

"AFTER THE TRIBULATION ."..............JESUS.
"But immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
......AND THEN!...... the sign of the SON OF MAN will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory."....JESUS SPEAKING.
Do you think He was trying to make it clear to us about When?.......................WE MUST PREPARE OUR HEARTS & RESOLVE TO ENDURE THIS TIME COMING....ALL FOR JESUS NO MATTER THE COST......."HE THAT ENDURES UNTIL THE END, THE SAME SHALL BE SAVED."
You are getting the Church mixed up with the Elect Jews who get saved, The backsliders and those who get saved during the tribulation period.
The Church isn't appointed to wrath, Thats why we get pre-trib raptured.

The Old Testament was the dispensation of law, The New Testament [Church age], Is the dispensation of grace,
And the comming great tribulation period, Is the dispensation of wrath...And wee..[The Church] Isn't appoionted to wrath, But to be taken before it comes.

How in the world can the devil handle millions of Christians who are just like Jesus, Eph 5: 27. 1 Jn 3: 2, When he couldn't deal with ONE Jesus??... We already have authority over the devil, So you can imagine what power and authority we'll have just before the rapture.
That is one reason the Church has to go before the anti-christ can come.
 

Michael*McEvan

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Tom, I have a handful of questions for you concerning the interesting events you've shared in this post. I have found the account/testimony of your journey (which I do believe you to have taken) to be a bit too vague, and will need you to fill in some of what I consider to be crucial missing details, if you are willing. I'll start my questions with this, which came first, the vision concerning your death by beheading etc. or your journey to Eritrea (Sept 2012)?
 

Foreigner

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Alanforchrist said:
Stop telling lies.
-- Gosh, it would be awesome if you would point out exactly what I have lied about.
Especially if you are going to accuse me of it.

Saying something like that without supporting it in any way with little things most of us like to call "facts" makes you look small and ignorant.

Go ahead and share with us what my "lies" are. I am curious myself.
 

Alanforchrist

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Foreigner said:
-- Gosh, it would be awesome if you would point out exactly what I have lied about.
Especially if you are going to accuse me of it.

Saying something like that without supporting it in any way with little things most of us like to call "facts" makes you look small and ignorant.

Go ahead and share with us what my "lies" are. I am curious myself.
You have a very short menory.
Here are your lies.

.
AlanforChrist, you have shown me no such thing.
You also make a completely incorrect assumption about the Church and Elect Jews. You couldn't be more incorrect.
[End quote].
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Alanforchrist.

Alanforchrist said:
Stop telling lies


The Elect Jews, The Christian backsliders and those who come to God After the Church is raptured, Will go through the tribulation.
Those who believe the Church goes through the tribulation, Are calling Jesus a liar in LK 21: 36.
Luke 21:36
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
KJV


To "escape all these things that shall come to pass" does NOT mean that one must LEAVE THE EARTH to do so! How can one be accounted worthy or unworthy of such an escape if they are not exposed to the "things that shall come to pass?" Remember the original Pesach, the Passover: The Isra'elites did not have to leave Egypt; they "merely" had to apply the blood to their doorposts and lintel for the Death Angel to literally "pass over" their homes on his mission to destroy all the firstborn.

Dani'el was not exempt from the lions' den, but God sent His angel to protect him THROUGH the night he was in there!

Chananyah, Misha'el, and `Azaryah (Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego) were not exempt from the fiery furnace, but God sent His Angel to protect them THROUGH the fire!

God never promises to take His people OUT of the trials that shall come; He only promises to be WITH THEM as they go THROUGH the trials!

When I was a believer in a pretribulational rapture, I always claimed that I didn't have an escapist attitude, but in reality, I DID! I was HOPING for the rapture to come so I wouldn't have to go through the coming events I read about in Revelation. Indeed, my faith was such that I was SURE I wasn't going to be here to experience the pouring of God's wrath poured out on the earth.

But, it always bothered me as to WHY those events were mentioned for our benefit if we were not going to be here to experience them. For whom do the prophecies of Revelation exist? What good is knowing what to expect if we're not supposed to be here to experience them?

Remember Yeshua`s words recorded in John:

John 17:15-26
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect (mature) in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
KJV


He didn't say, "where I WILL BE," as though talking about in some "Heaven" somewhere, but "where I AM" CURRENTLY, IN JERUSALEM where the Messiah Yeshua` as Melekh (King) will rule and reign! THAT'S when they will "behold my (His) glory!"
 

Foreigner

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Apr 14, 2010
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Alanforchrist said:
You have a very short menory.
Here are your lies.

.
AlanforChrist, you have shown me no such thing.
You also make a completely incorrect assumption about the Church and Elect Jews. You couldn't be more incorrect.
[End quote].
-- So a difference of opinion is now considered "a lie."

Then you have been lying since you began posting in this thread. Not just to me but to others, as well.

How? Using your own standard, by telling us we are wrong.

Someone disagreeing with you based on the fact that their understanding is different is not 'lying.'

Alan, please grow up.
 

Alanforchrist

Member
Dec 25, 2007
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Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Alanforchrist.


Luke 21:36
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
KJV


To "escape all these things that shall come to pass" does NOT mean that one must LEAVE THE EARTH to do so! How can one be accounted worthy or unworthy of such an escape if they are not exposed to the "things that shall come to pass?" Remember the original Pesach, the Passover: The Isra'elites did not have to leave Egypt; they "merely" had to apply the blood to their doorposts and lintel for the Death Angel to literally "pass over" their homes on his mission to destroy all the firstborn.

Dani'el was not exempt from the lions' den, but God sent His angel to protect him THROUGH the night he was in there!

Chananyah, Misha'el, and `Azaryah (Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego) were not exempt from the fiery furnace, but God sent His Angel to protect them THROUGH the fire!

God never promises to take His people OUT of the trials that shall come; He only promises to be WITH THEM as they go THROUGH the trials!

When I was a believer in a pretribulational rapture, I always claimed that I didn't have an escapist attitude, but in reality, I DID! I was HOPING for the rapture to come so I wouldn't have to go through the coming events I read about in Revelation. Indeed, my faith was such that I was SURE I wasn't going to be here to experience the pouring of God's wrath poured out on the earth.

But, it always bothered me as to WHY those events were mentioned for our benefit if we were not going to be here to experience them. For whom do the prophecies of Revelation exist? What good is knowing what to expect if we're not supposed to be here to experience them?

Remember Yeshua`s words recorded in John:

John 17:15-26
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect (mature) in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
KJV


He didn't say, "where I WILL BE," as though talking about in some "Heaven" somewhere, but "where I AM" CURRENTLY, IN JERUSALEM where the Messiah Yeshua` as Melekh (King) will rule and reign! THAT'S when they will "behold my (His) glory!"
You are twisting the truth...NAUGHTY.
Lk 21: 36 means to be taken out of the way.
Common sense tells us that the only way to escape the comming tribulation, Is to be taken,AS THE BIBLE TELL US THAT WE WILL.

You have compleatly taken Jn 17: 15 out of it's right context, NAUGHTY.

Foreigner said:
-- So a difference of opinion is now considered "a lie."

Then you have been lying since you began posting in this thread. Not just to me but to others, as well.

How? Using your own standard, by telling us we are wrong.

Someone disagreeing with you based on the fact that their understanding is different is not 'lying.'

Alan, please grow up.
It has nothing to do with opinions, I have shown you what the Bible says, [Not my opinion about it],
And you said I haven't given any proof , and I am incorrect.
 

Guestman

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Nov 11, 2009
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Questor said:
If one is to believe that the First Horseman of the Apocalypse is Yah'shua, He was given His crown on His resurrection from Death and the Grave, and His Ascension to a seat at the Father's right hand...which is on the Throne, and no one sits in YHVH's presence except by His command.

I am willing to consider this temporarily, for the other Horsemen seem to have been running since Yah'shua's death. Yes, there are a growing increase in wars, rumours of wars, plague, earthquakes, famine, pestilence and all the evil that men can do began in the early 1900's. But Yah'shua's presence is neither needed, nor promised. The birth pangs beginning are signs and warnings that Yashua will return, in person, in power and glory.

However, the prophecies of Revelation are specific to the time of the tribulation, or why was Yah'shua making sure that all the details of the Tribulation be spelled out for us in Revelation? If everything was to be as it always was, wars, famine, pestilence, earthquakes, there is nothing needed of the Four Horsemen, unless it were the quickening of the birth pangs, as YHVH allows the Evil One to begin his endtime preparations.

Q
Though Jesus was given all authority "in heaven and on the earth" (Matt 28:18), he was not given "a crown". The apostle Pater said that following his resurrection, that "he is at God's right hand, for he went his way to heaven, and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him."(1 Pet 3:22) Jesus had to sit at Jehovah's "right hand" until the "appointed time" to receive the kingship. Psalms 110 speaks of this, saying: "The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet."(Ps 110:1) After having placed his "enemies as a stool for (his) feet", Jesus is then told: "Go subduing in the midst of your enemies."(Ps 110:2)

At Daniel 7, Daniel saw "in the visions of the night, and, see there ! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. And to him was given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him."(Dan 7:13, 14) It is to be noted that this happens when a ' small horn ' has come into existence (the Anglo-American dual world power that came into play in 1917) after the demise of the "fourth beast"(Dan 7:7), the Roman Empire that fell to the German warlord Odoacer in 476 C.E.

The expression "son of man", Jesus identified at Matthew 8:20 as himself, who received "rulership and dignity and kingdom". Thus, what Daniel saw in vision is the same as at Revelation 6:2, whereby the rider of the "white horse" is seen with "a bow" and upon receiving "a crown", goes "forth conquering and to complete his conquest". This rider is again seen at Revelation 19 as the "Word of God" or Jesus Christ.(Rev 19:11-13)

Hence, Jesus upon receiving kingly authority of God's kingdom in 1914, went forth then and there to conquer, casting out first Satan and his demon angels from the "heavens", down to the vicinity of the earth.(Rev 12:7-9) This caused "woe for the earth and for the sea", resulting in "pangs of distress".(Matt 24:8; Rev 12:12) His ' completion of his conquest ' will be at the end of his millennial reign, when he has destroyed Satan, his demons and those who have chosen to follow him during this Judgment Day, with Adamic death being "the last enemy".(1 Cor 15:26; Rev 20:7-10)

As a feature of the "sign" (Matt 24:3) that Jesus said would be "the beginning of pangs of distress" (Matt 24:8) of his invisible "presence"(no "sign" would be needed if Jesus "presence" or parousia were visible), of ' nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom ' (Matt 24:7; Mark 13:8), Revelation 6:4 says that there came forth a rider on "a fiery-colored horse" and it "was granted to take peace away from the earth so that should slaughter one another; and a great sword was given him."

When, for the 1st time in human history, was ' peace taken away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another ' ? World War I, that began on July 28, 1914, with Austria declaring war on Serbia and eventually escalating globally, whereby some 93 percent of the world's population became involved.

Another rider followed, "a black horse; and the one seated upon it had a pair of scales in his hand".(Rev 6:5) Famine followed global war, but another rider was even more devastating, the one on a "pale horse; and the one seated upon it had the name Death. And Hades (mankind's common grave) was closely following him. And authority was given them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with a long sword (global war) and with food shortage ("black horse") and with deadly plague and by the wild beasts of the earth."(Rev 6:8)

By the end of World War I, a deadly plague, the Spanish Influenza broke out and over the course of 1918-1920, epidemiologists now estimate that as many as 500 million were infected and that perhaps upwards of 100 million died, and in which no place on earth was left unscathed, except the island of St. Helena. Thus, since the start of Jesus invisible "presence", the riders of the four horses have been riding swiftly.
 

Brothertom

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May 1, 2012
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The four horseman are riders until the end & manifest more clearly in the midst of the tribulation period. Here is my take on the White Horse.

THE WHITE HORSE : ISLAM
Mohammed rode "Lightning"..a magical White, flying steed from the Temple Mount in Jerusalem to Heaven, where he had conversations with Abraham & Jesus. [ not ]. Allah is the PRINCE OF PERSIA that Michael warred with over
Daniel's revelation; he is not Satan, but powerful, like a brother; #2 in the demon realm. During this time, Satan gives Allah his power, as they both benefit, thinking that they can defeat the Almighty..[ but knowing their time is short..] There are 1.4 Billion Muslims today. This rider on the white horse is none other than the Anti-Christ himself, the Son of Perdition, the man of sin.

I believe that this is the one who received a deadly wound to the head, & in resurrection, THE ENTIRE WORLD wonders over him. Who but Osama Bin Laden would qualify in World-Wide infamy? I met him in October 2012 in N. Africa & Cairo. He was very thin, about 6 1/2 feet tall, with eyes like a hundred wildcats, churcning with evil & hateful murder. It was Bin Laden. He was surrounded by 30 or so bodyguards. I also witnessed a companion with him; eye to eye. I witnessed a pillar of fire appear 50-60 feet high & 20-30 feet wide, burning with swirling white light....twice...at night in Eritrea. THE FALSE PROPHET.

All of the Eartrh will be given to him, & this one will issue a decree of the MARK, that all must have to buy or sell, & will murder all who will not worship him, & Allah. This is the center of the Great Tribulation. I prophesied to him & the false prophet of Jesus as Lord, & their end in the lake of fire. I also told them that they would win the Earth, but that they could not have all of it.

God kept me. It was 100 times more intense than anything I ever could have dreamed of; but the Lord was with me. This is what will come, even to America. America will fall & afterwards invaded. I do not know the sequence of Anti-Christ's domain here, but I know there will be a remant here, & I know that the Tree of Healing for All Nations will fall on the American Church..[ probably global]....& whoever touches her will touch Jesus Himself. This anointing will "fall" when we see an air war over Texas/Katrina; an extended air battle for Air Superiority that we lose. It will go on & on & on...& when we think we have a chance, another huge wave of fighters & Bombers appear, until our forces are crushed.

I don't know how long after, but this war for air superiority precedes an invasion. I was taken in the Spirit & shown an army. I heard the sound of Cadence; men marching in step, & the sound was like thunder, & the Earth shook, & as I watched, this vast army rose out of the sea. Soldiers in light combat gear marched right out of the ocean; mean & lean...multitudes.

As I watched, the Angel of the Lord spoke to me; "20 MILLION"; the size of the army. I knew that they came to occupy, & that their strategy was to take cities, dominate all resistance, & systematically & without mercy , until all were in submission. This is when the blood of the saints beheaded will flow in the streets, & many will bow the need to Allah, & betray one another to save their skins, or the skins of their children.

There will be a time of sorrow; unimaginable, coupled with a time of glory, the same. The Church will glow with love & power, & many will overcome, & there will be a company here to meet the Lord Jesus in The Gathering, when He returns.

Jesus is Lord & worthy of all worship...no matter the cost.

"Let no man steal your crown."