PREPARING FOR THE COMING TRIBULATION

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Guestman

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Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Guestman.


I'm not going to let you get by with this one. You should AVOID using any form of Young's Literal Translation! The Greek word "parousia" does NOT mean "presence"; it means an "arrival." It's not just a "being along side"; it means "a becoming along side," speaking of a PHYSICAL RETURN, not just an "invisible presence!" The same word, "parousia," was used for the physical arrival of Stephanas, Fortunatus, and Achaius in 1 Corinthians 16:17 and for Titus in 2 Corinthians 7:6-7. It is a misrepresentation of Scripture to say it refers to a "presence," let alone an "invisible presence!"
If one were to closely examine the Greek word parousia, it can be established as meaning "presence". For example, at Philippians 2:12, the apostle Paul contrasts the Greek word parousia with the Greek word apousia. There he says: "Consequently, my beloved ones, in the way that you have always obeyed, not during my presence (parousia) only, but now much more readily during my absence (apousia)."

Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament says of parousia: "1. presence" and notes this at 1 Corinthians 15:23, whereby Paul says: "But each one in his own rank: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence (Greek parousia)" as well at 2 Corinthians 10:10, in which Paul says: "For they say: "His letters are weighty and forceful, but his presence (Greek parousia) is weak and his speech contemptible."

That Jesus "presence" cannot be visible is seen in what the apostle Paul wrote to the Hebrews, after speaking of Jesus offering his life blood to God: "Otherwise, he would have to suffer often from the founding of the world. But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the system of things to put sin away through the sacrifice of himself."(Heb 9:26)

If Jesus were to reappear visibly in the flesh after having presented his life blood to Jehovah God (Heb 9:24), he would be reneging on his ransom. That it something that will not be done, for this would make null and void his ransom that he gave in 33 C.E. and invalidate God's word.

Thus, when four of Jesus apostles asked him: "What is the sign of your presence (Greek parousia) and of the conclusion of the system of things" (Matt 24:3), Jesus paralled it to the "days of Noah" (Matt 24:37-39) that covered some 120 years (Gen 6:3) and responded by telling them that "nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress."(Matt 24:7, 8)

Hence, Jesus "presence" would be an extended period of time whereby many events or features of "sign of Jesus presence" would be apparent to ones whom Jesus likens to "eagles" or spiritually keen ones.(Matt 24:27, 28) The question can rightly be asked: If Jesus presence is visible, then why did Jesus apostles ask for a "sign" to determine when this would be happening ?

Just as Noah warned his "generation" or contemporaries of the impending cataclysm (Gen 6:9; 2 Pet 2:5), so likewise Jesus said that during his "presence" that is invisible, there would be accomplished a global preaching and teaching work at Matthew 24:14. He directs this earth wide work from heaven, using his angels.(Rev 14:6)

Hence, when the "great tribulation" begins, this work will have been completed to God's satisfaction, in which God says: "And I will rock the nations, and the desirable things of all the nations must come in, and I will fill this house with glory,' Jehovah of armies has said."(Hag 2:7)

These are the ones who are seen as the "great crowd" that "come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."(Rev 7:14)
 

Questor

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Guestman Said: 02 February 2013 - 03:34 PM
Guestman said:
There are events and situations that happen before the "great tribulation" can begin according to Jehovah God's "appointed time". After telling them that the temple would be destroyed, four of Jesus apostles asked Jesus a composite question three days before his death: "Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things ?" (Matt 24:3)
Guestman, do you not believe that Yah'shua will return physically soon? Why do you believe that Yah'shua has returned already, but invisibly?

Yah'shua was very plain when He said that He was ascending to YHVH, and in His place, Yah'shua would ask for the Ruach haKodesh to come, and be our Comforter and Teacher.

And the Ruach haKodesh did come, first to the 120 believers who were waiting, on the Feast of Pentecost, and is still now, with all those who are Believers, that are Baptised in water, that are Baptised in the Ruach.

[SIZE=x-small]15[/SIZE] If ye love me, keep my commandments.
[SIZE=x-small]16[/SIZE] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
[SIZE=x-small]17[/SIZE] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
[SIZE=x-small]18[/SIZE] I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
[SIZE=x-small]19[/SIZE] Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
[SIZE=x-small]20[/SIZE] At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
[SIZE=x-small]21[/SIZE] He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
[SIZE=x-small]22[/SIZE] Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
[SIZE=x-small]23[/SIZE] Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
[SIZE=x-small]24[/SIZE] He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
[SIZE=x-small]25[/SIZE] These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
[SIZE=x-small]26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=x-small]27[/SIZE] Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
[SIZE=x-small]28[/SIZE] Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
[SIZE=x-small]29
[/SIZE] And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.


John 14:15-29 (KJV)

Spiritually speaking, the Comfortor dwells in all who believe, and keep Yah'shua's commandments, to love YHVH with all our heart, soul, mind and stength, and our neighbors as ourselves. And with the Spirit of YHVH within us, we are always connected to YHVH and Yah'shua.


Well, all our obedience is suspect and imperfect, but the Comforter is with us because of Yah'shua's redemption of us, and Yah'shua waits at the Father's side for the time to return in triumph. The 120 were not yet baptised in the Ruach haKodesh, so their outward lawfulness was still required until the Spirit descended. From that point on, all Believers walked in Grace.

Yes, we are in Yahshua, and Yah'shua is in YHVH, so we are also in YHVH, in a spiritual sense, but the presence of the Comforter in us is a special gift asked for us from YHVH. And however much we want Yah'shua here, and this dreadful coming time to be over,Yah'shua is with YHVH, sitting on YHVH's throne.

We have the Ruach haKodesh, and we are able to ask Yah'shua to intercede for us, and because of our righteousness in Yah'shua haMashiach, we can boldly approach the throne of YHVH, and ask our Father directly for what we need and desire, in Yah'shua's name.

Guestman said:
Jesus now gives several identifying features of his (invisible) "presence" that would lead up to the "great tribulation", saying that "nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another." He specified that these would only be "a beginning of pangs of distress."(Matt 24:7, 8)

I do not see any statement by Yah'shua that says He will be 'present, but invisible' in the days leading to His return, in Matthew 24, or elsewhere in the Scriptures. At the most, you can choose to interpret the word 'coming', as being in Yah'shua's presence...but we have been, each of us, from the day of our baptism, a part of YHVH's family, and co-heir with Yah'shua to the Kingdom.

Please, you must be careful not to say more than is in the Scriptures, but must let Scripture interpret Scripture. And that means reading the appropriate translation of a word to fit with it's context.



[SIZE=x-small]3[/SIZE] And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
[SIZE=x-small]4[/SIZE] And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
[SIZE=x-small]5[/SIZE] For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
[SIZE=x-small]6
And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7[/SIZE] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
[SIZE=x-small]8[/SIZE] All these are the beginning of sorrows.
[SIZE=x-small]9[/SIZE] Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
[SIZE=x-small]10[/SIZE] And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
[SIZE=x-small]11[/SIZE] And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
[SIZE=x-small]12[/SIZE] And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
[SIZE=x-small]13[/SIZE] But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


Matt 24:3-13 (KJV)

If one is to believe that the First Horseman of the Apocalypse is Yah'shua, He was given His crown on His resurrection from Death and the Grave, and His Ascension to a seat at the Father's right hand...which is on the Throne, and no one sits in YHVH's presence except by His command.

I am willing to consider this temporarily, for the other Horsemen seem to have been running since Yah'shua's death. Yes, there are a growing increase in wars, rumours of wars, plague, earthquakes, famine, pestilence and all the evil that men can do began in the early 1900's. But Yah'shua's presence is neither needed, nor promised. The birth pangs beginning are signs and warnings that Yashua will return, in person, in power and glory.

However, the prophecies of Revelation are specific to the time of the tribulation, or why was Yah'shua making sure that all the details of the Tribulation be spelled out for us in Revelation? If everything was to be as it always was, wars, famine, pestilence, earthquakes, there is nothing needed of the Four Horsemen, unless it were the quickening of the birth pangs, as YHVH allows the Evil One to begin his endtime preparations.



[SIZE=x-small]14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come[/SIZE].
[SIZE=x-small]15[/SIZE] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
[SIZE=x-small]16[/SIZE] Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
[SIZE=x-small]17[/SIZE] Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
[SIZE=x-small]18[/SIZE] Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
[SIZE=x-small]19[/SIZE] And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
[SIZE=x-small]20[/SIZE] But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
[SIZE=x-small]21[/SIZE] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
[SIZE=x-small]22[/SIZE] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
[SIZE=x-small]23[/SIZE] Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
[SIZE=x-small]24[/SIZE] For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
[SIZE=x-small]25[/SIZE] Behold, I have told you before.
[SIZE=x-small]26[/SIZE] Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
[SIZE=x-small]27[/SIZE] For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[SIZE=x-small]28[/SIZE] For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
[SIZE=x-small]29[/SIZE] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[SIZE=x-small]30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31[/SIZE] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
[SIZE=x-small]32[/SIZE] Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
[SIZE=x-small]33[/SIZE] So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
[SIZE=x-small]34[/SIZE] Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
[SIZE=x-small]35[/SIZE] Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
[SIZE=x-small]36[/SIZE] But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
[SIZE=x-small]37[/SIZE] But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[SIZE=x-small]38[/SIZE] For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
[SIZE=x-small]39[/SIZE] And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[SIZE=x-small]40[/SIZE] Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
[SIZE=x-small]41[/SIZE] Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
[SIZE=x-small]42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. [/SIZE]






Matt 24:14-42 (KJV)

The mere quickening of the 'birthpangs' are only a warning system, for those of us who watch for Yah'shua's return in power.

I understand that you prefer to see the interpretation of Parousia as being in the presence of
Yah'shua, but how can we, mere humans, tell the difference between the known and felt presence of haRuach haKodesh,and a supposed invisible presence of Yah'shua haMashiach? They are both YHVH!

Yah'shua is not on the planet, nor has He returned as He said he would...Yah'shua's return is yet to come, although, indeed, very soon.

King David said long before Yah'shua was even born into his tabernacle of flesh that Yah'shua would be given a place on YHVH's right hand until the time for His return in power, after His enemies were taken care of by YHVH.


[SIZE=x-small]36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.[/SIZE]


Mark 12:36 (KJV)


Guestman said:
At 2 Peter 3, the apostle Peter correlates Jesus (invisible) "presence" as being the same as the "last days", saying: "For you know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers proceeding according to their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires and saying: "Where is this promised presence of his ? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as from creation's beginning."(2 Pet 3:3, 4)

Thus, when did Jesus "promised presence" or "last days" begin ? When for the first time was there "nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom" on a global scale that was the "beginning of pangs of distress" ? World War I, that began on July 28, 1914. Hence, starting in 1914, the "time of the end" began, in which Jesus was now invisibly "present". What does this mean ?

I do not see Peter speaking of the Yah'shua's specific return, except it is at the last days. And changing the definition of one word from coming to presence cannot override the contextual meaning, which is Yah'shua's return in power and Glory.


[SIZE=x-small]1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2[/SIZE] That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
[SIZE=x-small]3[/SIZE] Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
[SIZE=x-small]4[/SIZE] And saying,
Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
[SIZE=x-small]5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6[/SIZE] Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
[SIZE=x-small]7[/SIZE] But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

[SIZE=x-small]8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9[/SIZE] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[SIZE=x-small]10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=x-small]11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12[/SIZE] Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
[SIZE=x-small]13[/SIZE] Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
[SIZE=x-small]14[/SIZE] Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
[SIZE=x-small]15[/SIZE] And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
[SIZE=x-small]16[/SIZE] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

[SIZE=x-small]17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18[/SIZE] But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


2 Peter 3:1-18 (KJV)

Guestman said:
That Jesus was installed as king of God's kingdom, for the fulfillment of Revelation 6 now occurred. There, it says that a rider on a "white horse" received " a crown", and with his new authority "went forth conquering and to complete his conquest."(Rev 6:2) What resulted from this ? World war broke out, for Revelation 6:4 says that "another came forth, a fiery-colored horse; and it was granted to take away peace from the earth so that they should slaughter one another; and a great sword was given him."
John, in his vision, is watching Yah'shua open the seals in Revelation 6:1-8. Yah'shua is not the subject of the seals, nor is Yah'shua a conquerer until the Last Day, which is described much further on in this prophecy. Until He returns in Power, YHVH is causing His Angels to restrain the Evil One, allowing him only so much room to maneuver on preparing for the Tribulation.

And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
[SIZE=x-small]2
And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
3[/SIZE] And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
[SIZE=x-small]4[/SIZE] And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
[SIZE=x-small]5[/SIZE] And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
[SIZE=x-small]6[/SIZE] And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
[SIZE=x-small]7[/SIZE] And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
[SIZE=x-small]8[/SIZE] And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.



Rev 6:1-8 (KJV)

Guestman, I have looked where your scriptural proofs were stated, and copied them here, so that my conclusions are properly supported.

I do not see what you see, nor do any Believers I have spoken to, read, or studied under anyone who states an invisble presence of Yah'shua as part of the days leading up to the Great Tribulation.

I do not see any particular date as a ramping up of the birthpangs, and the more active presence of the Evil One, except it be in the late 1700's, when the world's intellectuals began pushing Humanism; Darwin's works made popular in the early 1800's; and the the deceit of the Pre-trib rapture by teachings by Darby beginning in 1820. Thus you can see the birth pangs being prepared for. The earthquakes alone having been radically jumping in number, and power.

The birth pangs are so obvious now, one wonders why more people do not see them, except that we know many are blinded by choice, by deceitfulness of the Adversary, and some by YHVH.

That is the purpose of the Tribulation, to bring everyone alive to see and hear the witness of many a Believer, and to know that Yah'shua is worth dying for, and that living without Yah'shua cannot be tolerated, not by Him, and certainly, not by those who love Him.

We who love Yah'shua have to look ahead through the days that will come, enjoy what is good, share the gospel with whomever we can, and help those who need our help as the evils days begin.

We must also prepare to stand.


Q
 

tgwprophet

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Pre-Tribulation rapture would ensure saftey and for many I wish them that saftey. Being a person who normaqlly dis-likes cliche's but every now and then there is an appropriate one... and this is it .... Prepare for the worst - hope for the best.

Pre-tribulation rapture is a PEW FILLER. Preachers teaching pre-trib protection is giving goods news of endtimes. BUT what IF it is not pre-trib rapture? Understand the type of mass exodus described by pew filling preachers would spread like wide fire to all those of diverse religions... they would all then seek to align thier belief with Christianity! Being that the Mark of the Beast is not yet employed... no one would allow it to be employed...seeking the demise of Satan instead,,,why? because they saw the mass exodus in the twinklling of an eye.

Prepare ye then for the coming Tribulation and impending Beast's Mark that you may be prepared to deny the Mark of the Beast and yet have some safety. If you go in the rapture, see those you love, yet were left behind, are prepared with your understanding and utilities that they may e3ndure in some safety.

1) your Bible, Map and Compass
2) a good hunting knife...preferrably one for every member.
3) good fishing equipment - fancy is not important - And a few foot-hold traps is a good idea
4) a book on wild edible plants (ex... carrots are not orange in the wild)
5) 6mil plastic roll to make a tent or for winter a water barrier for a wooden structure. 10'x14' or bigger
or more than one roll.
6) water container(s) & water purification tablets or pot for pre-boiling the water
7) needles and thread ( canvas thread can also be used as fishing line )
8) fire starters ( lighters or flint stones )
9) rope and string
10) food assistances such as salt and flour
11) a 5 Gallon bucket with a lid is a good idea as it can keep stuff dry for hauling and it can be used for water.

There is a show on the television called " preppers " and they make safe places in the woods... that is almost useless. most of what they do, will be at best... futile. For a real short time safe haven to collect your thoughts and prepare for a journey that could be ok, but to stay there is no good. You will need a place to gather what you have prepared to take and it should be within an hour of your home (hiking time - not driving) and secluded. But it is just a way station with which to prepare your journey and so you are out of sight and out of mind. A vehicle is ok - maybe, as they will certainly be imposing driving restrictions. To use a vehicle - you must be absolutely certain plus prepared to abandon it in a moments notice.

A government desiring to impose a Mark on you and yours will first seek you that you go to them. Then they will seek you at your home. Then they will search for you. This is all the time you have to be away from their reach...in a place they do not know. That old stone quarry outside of town - where no one goes... the first place they will look. And you know one can track someone by their cell phone right? Leave it behind or better yet... toss it on a train headed in the opposite direction.


I follow this up with a vision I was given. We ( not sure I was in the truck, but it was "like" I was ) were headed to a job site. As we exited an off ramp we were met at the intersection with police cars (3 I think ) they stopped all traffic and they told us to " Report Home " This was very odd that the policeman told us not to go home, but rather " Report Home" and the meaning was that there would be someone at our home to give further instruction... such as accept a Mark or perhaps surrender all fire arms. The tactic could greatly reduce the ability to leave un-noticed. With such a fore-warning it would do well if one kept their "away gear" very readily handy... that one would not have to go home or Report Home. The day looked like any other day.
 

Guestman

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Questor said:
Guestman Said: 02 February 2013 - 03:34 PM

Guestman, do you not believe that Yah'shua will return physically soon? Why do you believe that Yah'shua has returned already, but invisibly?

Yah'shua was very plain when He said that He was ascending to YHVH, and in His place, Yah'shua would ask for the Ruach haKodesh to come, and be our Comforter and Teacher.

And the Ruach haKodesh did come, first to the 120 believers who were waiting, on the Feast of Pentecost, and is still now, with all those who are Believers, that are Baptised in water, that are Baptised in the Ruach.



Q
Did you not read what the apostle Paul wrote to the Hebrew Christians, that Jesus "manifested himself once for all time" at Hebrews 9:26. Hence, Jesus "manifested himself once for all time" when he arrived on the earth as the Messiah in 29 C.E. Once he provided the ransom in 33 C.E., he will never "become flesh" again.(John 1:14)

Why do I believe that Jesus has returned invisibly ? Simply put, because his disciples asked: "What will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things ?" ("end of the world", KJV, Matt 24:3) Just as the Bible does not give the exact date when "the conclusion of the system of things" began but must discerned by the "sign" or features, so likewise of Jesus "presence". Most who read the Bible never figure this out, because the churches have taught that Jesus would return visibly, and they accepted this without a critical examination.

For example, at Matthew 16, Jesus told the Jewish religious leaders: "When evening falls you are accustomed to say, ' It will be fair weather, for the sky is fire-red' ; and at morning, ' It will be wintry, rainy weather today, for the sky is fire-red, but gloomy-looking.' You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but the signs of the times you cannot interpret. A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking for a sign, but no sign will be given it, except the sign of Jonah."(Matt 16:2-4, see also Luke 12:54-56)

The Jewish religious leaders were unable to ' interpret the signs of the times' that the appointed time had arrived for the Messiah according to Daniel 9:24-27. Likewise today, most, including the religious leaders of Christendom, are unable to ' interpret the signs of the times' of Jesus invisible "presence" seen through the "sign" (Matt 24:3-14), but keeping looking for Jesus "second coming."
 

Brothertom

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TWC. A very simple & powerful Christian Post as to the fact that we must endure to the end, & we will not be raptured away to avoid any semblence of suffering. Most of the erronious thinking about the Pre-Tribulation rapture is to equate suffering with wrath; IT IS NOT AT ALL! All of those in this scripture OVERCAME through death refusing the mark of the Beast, which occurs at the very END OF THE AGE...The Great Tribulation period! Where overcomers are made .

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

................... But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." ..Revelation 20: 4-5

If I had it my way, The innocent would never have to suffer, & we would somehow fly away.....but then again....Heaven might be filled with greedy & power hungry usurpers too, who have not proven that they love the Lamb more than the World, their satanic nature, or the ways of the Devil.....Then Heaven would not be so Heavenly, would it?

Revelation 13:6-8
" Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.
It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.

And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."............................................................................................................

As I have said, I believe thiis to be Osama Bin Laden; I believe I witnessed him & the false prophet in North Africa, face to face.

I wrote this about my testinony in my trip to Eritrea, experience in Egypt...& Israel..last fall.
".....I won't get into all of the details, but it did not end there either. I went to Israel from there, & was actually captured by Taliban sympathizers. I believe that I met the anti-Christ ; Osama Bin Laden, & his false prophet; I looked into his eyes...possessed by the Prince of Persia himself, empowered by Satan. In one moment....at night, I saw him face to face....A hooded dragon light emitted from him as he stared at me."...Tom Watkins

"What happened then is the oddist & most stressful thing ever, for me. I became aware of an evil beyond evil, at the hotel I was staying at. I was interrogated by two officials, 12 hours after I arrived. I heard terrible sounds of murder at night...& also aware of the Taliban...who told me that I had a $70,000 price on my head. I saw a supernatural pillar of fire twice, [ I believe that this is the fire that the false prophet calls down; I believe I met him..] perhaps 30 feet tall & 12 feet in diameter, burning in the night, perhaps 300 yards away from my hotel, & witchcraft deeper than I had ever seen; & intermingled with cries of torture at night." T.W.

Read more: http://brideinthewilderness.blogspot.com/?view=classic

This Demon thrives on the blood of it's human followers, Ala. [ Mahozeim ], the god of war & fortresses that Daniel speaks about. This is the only part of the Bible written in Chaldean, & the original translates the name of the Anti-Christ:

Daniel 11:37-39
" Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces...[ ALLAH MAHOZEIM, the god of WAR ]..in Chaldean ]: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain."

Glory will rise with sorrow, & overcoming will result in our greatest joy......JESUS PROPHESIES OF THESE COMING DAYS.........................................................

"It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?

Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

& FEAR NOT THEM WHO KILL THE BODY, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear HIM which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.....[ FEAR JESUS!]

Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

He that findeth his life SHALL LOSE IT: and he that loseth his life for my sake SHALL FIND IT.

He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

THE HOLY JERUSALEM.
 

Alanforchrist

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ENOCH2010 said:
Only 2 mass resurrections in the future are spoken of in the Bible

1 the first resurrection, at the start of the 1000 year reign at the second coming of Christ

2 after the 1000 year reign,at the time of the GWT judgement


to add another resurrection for the pre-trib rapture,you might ought to read the last chapter of Rev. and see what the Bible says about adding to this book
There are THREE end time resurrections.
[1]Those at the pre-trib rapture. 1 Cor 15: 51--52. 1 Thess 4: 15--17.
[2]Those who get saved during the tribulation period, at the physical coming of Jesus, Rev 20: 4--6.
And those at the judgement day. Rev 20: 11--15.

Questor said:
Alan, I looked for many years into the Bible looking to find the proof of what is stated in the pre-trib websites that promise a pre-tribulation rapture, and into books that proclaimed again and again that there is a pre-trib rapture, and scoured the Bible trying to find the evidence that is so boasted about by pre-trib advocates. I wanted to find proof of a pre-trib rapture...I did not want to see the dark days of the tribulation period approach.

Yes, there are hints and vague statements, that taken out of context, could, if you desire it enough, become a scriptural basis for what you want to believe. But you have to want to believe what you have been taught in support of the pre-trib rapture, despite that what youhave been taught is in direct opposition to what Yah'shua said Himself.

[SIZE=x-small]3[/SIZE] And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
[SIZE=x-small]4[/SIZE] And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
[SIZE=x-small]5[/SIZE] For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
[SIZE=x-small]6[/SIZE] And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
[SIZE=x-small]7[/SIZE] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
[SIZE=x-small]8[/SIZE] All these are the beginning of sorrows.
[SIZE=x-small]9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake[/SIZE].
[SIZE=x-small]10[/SIZE] And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
[SIZE=x-small]11[/SIZE] And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
[SIZE=x-small]12[/SIZE] And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
[SIZE=x-small]13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=x-small]14[/SIZE] And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
[SIZE=x-small]15[/SIZE] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
[SIZE=x-small]16[/SIZE] Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
[SIZE=x-small]17[/SIZE] Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
[SIZE=x-small]18[/SIZE] Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
[SIZE=x-small]19[/SIZE] And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
[SIZE=x-small]20[/SIZE] But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
[SIZE=x-small]21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=x-small]22[/SIZE] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
[SIZE=x-small]23[/SIZE] Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
[SIZE=x-small]24[/SIZE] For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
[SIZE=x-small]25[/SIZE] Behold, I have told you before.
[SIZE=x-small]26[/SIZE] Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
[SIZE=x-small]27[/SIZE] For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[SIZE=x-small]28[/SIZE] For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
[SIZE=x-small]29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30[/SIZE] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[SIZE=x-small]31[/SIZE] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



Matt 24:3-31 (KJV)


Alan, I understand the passionate desire to believe what you have been taught by others, especially when the idea is so comforting, believing that you will be in Heaven when all the bad stuff happens.

But when Yah'shua discussed the time of the end, how it would begin, and progress, and end with His return, He mentions nothing about about any catching away UNTIL HE RETURNS!

How can you, or anyone, take any man's statements, even those of Paul, or John, whether a word, or line vaguely taken out of context, as superior to the specific statement of Yah'shua, Son of YHVH in Mathew 24: 3-21?

How can you ignore the specifics Yah'shua stated Himself over any bits and pieces that have been cobbled together, a line here, a sentence there, to fit a soothing guarantee of being no longer where the Evil one can get to you, when again, Yah'shua said specifically that there would be much tribulation and sorrow, imprisonment, and even death before He returned?

Yes, there are many who will not die despite all that the Adversay wants, because YHVH is able to protect whomever He wishes.

Unfortunately, the time of the AntiChrist's rule as a god, during the second half of the 7 Year tribulation, the murder of many Believers are going to be allowed by YHVH, and each death will provoke many to desire Yah'shua.


[SIZE=x-small]5[/SIZE] And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
[SIZE=x-small]6[/SIZE] And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
[SIZE=x-small]7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=x-small]8[/SIZE] And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
[SIZE=x-small]9[/SIZE] If any man have an ear, let him hear.



Rev 13:5-9 (KJV)


Alan, no where in the Scriptures does it state plainly that those who believe in Yah'shua are going to be protected by being pulled out of the world.

Yes, YHVH will protect many, but many others will not be protected from the AntiChrist.

I know that you will prefer to take the words of your teachers, supported by scant bits and pieces of Scripture, to convince you that no real persecution will step in your vicinity, because it is so much easier than living with all that Yah'shua has so plainly said.

The AntiChrist will come. He will eventually declare himself god. And then, he will demand worship of everyone, or their death for refusing.

This is not what I believe. It is what Yah'shua has said.

And so, I keep watch, and I prepare myself to stand until death if I must, because what Yah'shua says spcifically is more important to me than any pretty stories that mankind has taught.



Q
You are confusing the Elect Jews for the elect Church, You are congusing the people who get saved during the tribulation period with the Church
Theree are too many pre-trib raptures scriptures for it not to be true.
Yopur problem is, You don't know the Bibile, Either that or you are calling God a liar.

Why do people want to tribulate when God has promised us deliverance from it??.
 

TWC

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Alanforchrist said:
There are THREE end time resurrections.
[1]Those at the pre-trib rapture. 1 Cor 15: 51--52. 1 Thess 4: 15--17.
[2]Those who get saved during the tribulation period, at the physical coming of Jesus, Rev 20: 4--6.
And those at the judgement day. Rev 20: 11--15.

You are confusing the Elect Jews for the elect Church, You are congusing the people who get saved during the tribulation period with the Church
Theree are too many pre-trib raptures scriptures for it not to be true.
Yopur problem is, You don't know the Bibile, Either that or you are calling God a liar.

Why do people want to tribulate when God has promised us deliverance from it??.
Before you can place the events of 1 Cor 15:51-52 and 1 Thess 4:15-17 at a pretribulation rapture, you first must prove that said pretribulation rapture exists in the first place. Your premise that these two passages belong to a pretribulation rapture assumes that said pretribulation rapture exists, and since that's what is being debated, this is circular reasoning.

If you know the Bible so well and we're all so ignorant, what problem do you have providing biblical proof that there are two separate elects? How about sharing these "too many pretrib rapture scriptures for it not to be true" that you keep going on about?

Our faith is an active faith, not a passive faith. If you passively sit in a pew and simply absorb what you're being told, you will be led astray. Always be strengthening your shield and sharpening your sword.
 

ENOCH2010

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Alanforchrist said:
There are THREE end time resurrections.
[1]Those at the pre-trib rapture. 1 Cor 15: 51--52. 1 Thess 4: 15--17.
[2]Those who get saved during the tribulation period, at the physical coming of Jesus, Rev 20: 4--6.
And those at the judgement day. Rev 20: 11--15.

You are confusing the Elect Jews for the elect Church, You are congusing the people who get saved during the tribulation period with the Church
Theree are too many pre-trib raptures scriptures for it not to be true.
Yopur problem is, You don't know the Bibile, Either that or you are calling God a liar.

Why do people want to tribulate when God has promised us deliverance from it??.
Alan only 2 mass resurrections are the end time prophecy, the first and the second. These are plainly written in the Bible. The pre-trib doctrine has to add another for their doctrine to sound pleasing to the ears of the church members. The question is do you want to spread a false doctrine that most want to hear, or do you want to spread the truth of the Bible.
 

Alanforchrist

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TWC said:
Before you can place the events of 1 Cor 15:51-52 and 1 Thess 4:15-17 at a pretribulation rapture, you first must prove that said pretribulation rapture exists in the first place. Your premise that these two passages belong to a pretribulation rapture assumes that said pretribulation rapture exists, and since that's what is being debated, this is circular reasoning.

If you know the Bible so well and we're all so ignorant, what problem do you have providing biblical proof that there are two separate elects? How about sharing these "too many pretrib rapture scriptures for it not to be true" that you keep going on about?

Our faith is an active faith, not a passive faith. If you passively sit in a pew and simply absorb what you're being told, you will be led astray. Always be strengthening your shield and sharpening your sword.
If you read the Bible, You will see the pre-trib rapture...Look at my posts and you'll see that I have given scriptures to prove the pre-trib rapture.

Your problem is, Youi don't know the Bible, Either that, Or you are calling God a liar, Either way, Shame on you.

ENOCH2010 said:
Alan only 2 mass resurrections are the end time prophecy, the first and the second. These are plainly written in the Bible. The pre-trib doctrine has to add another for their doctrine to sound pleasing to the ears of the church members. The question is do you want to spread a false doctrine that most want to hear, or do you want to spread the truth of the Bible.
have shown you what the Bible says,..Stop adding your own opinions.

The two end time resurrections in the book of Revelation have nothing to do with the resurrection at the pre-trib rapture.

If you look at the resurrections in Revelation, You'll see there is no rapture whith them.
 

ENOCH2010

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Alanforchrist said:
If you read the Bible, You will see the pre-trib rapture...Look at my posts and you'll see that I have given scriptures to prove the pre-trib rapture.

Your problem is, Youi don't know the Bible, Either that, Or you are calling God a liar, Either way, Shame on you.


have shown you what the Bible says,..Stop adding your own opinions.

The two end time resurrections in the book of Revelation have nothing to do with the resurrection at the pre-trib rapture.

If you look at the resurrections in Revelation, You'll see there is no rapture whith them.
I stand firmly on the word of God, you are the one adding a special resurrection for the hope of a pre-trib rapture .
 

Brothertom

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The true danger is that you will not be ready for what IS coming: a Tribulation; a Pressure; A Time when Suffering & resolve will come upon us all, to honor Jesus above our lives even.

Are you resolved, as a Pre-Tribulationalist, to ENDURE? & to honor Jesus above all? No matter the cost to you?..even if your dogma is wrong?..This is the issue...you may argue until your blue....but this is coming. Pray for mercy & grace; All of us will need it more than we can imagine.
 

Alanforchrist

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ENOCH2010 said:
I stand firmly on the word of God, you are the one adding a special resurrection for the hope of a pre-trib rapture .
If you DID know and stand on the Bible, You would know about the pre-trib rapture.
As I have said, There are to many pre-trib rapture scriptures for it not to be true.

Brothertom said:
The true danger is that you will not be ready for what IS coming: a Tribulation; a Pressure; A Time when Suffering & resolve will come upon us all, to honor Jesus above our lives even.

Are you resolved, as a Pre-Tribulationalist, to ENDURE? & to honor Jesus above all? No matter the cost to you?..even if your dogma is wrong?..This is the issue...you may argue until your blue....but this is coming. Pray for mercy & grace; All of us will need it more than we can imagine.
Those who believe the Church goes through the tribulation period, Either don't know the Bible, Or they are calling God a liar.
There are to many pre-trib rapture scriptures for it not to be true.
The Elect Jews, The backsliders and those who get saved during the tribulation, Will go through the tribulation, But tno the Church.
 

ENOCH2010

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How about putting a few of them pre-trib rapture scriptures on here for us,maybe we are all wrong.
 

Alanforchrist

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ENOCH2010 said:
How about putting a few of them pre-trib rapture scriptures on here for us,maybe we are all wrong.
I have already put some pre-trib rapture scriptures on, Check them out with an open mind and get back to me.
 

tgwprophet

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I spent much time considering a pre-trib pre-wrath and post-trib rapture... One must use as a foundation "their opinion" for which is correct. However, pre-wrath also makes sense. AlanforChrist... when asked to post those verses,,, instead of saying you already did, ( meaning they could very well be given but not all together - so finding them would require much labor ) you should have posted them all together as requested... unless you are not up for a challenge.


It seems no one considers Daniel 12:12 and its meaning... So let me help.... It is the ONLY time written when God could Bless those the curse him ( like he asks us to do ) and Those left behind from the rapture - and not Bless those who need no Blessing becasue they went in the rapture. So.. I expect the rapture took place just before that Blessing. And this is not the Only reason I consider a pre-wrath rapture.
 

Alanforchrist

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terry said:
I spent much time considering a pre-trib pre-wrath and post-trib rapture... One must use as a foundation "their opinion" for which is correct. However, pre-wrath also makes sense. AlanforChrist... when asked to post those verses,,, instead of saying you already did, ( meaning they could very well be given but not all together - so finding them would require much labor ) you should have posted them all together as requested... unless you are not up for a challenge.


It seems no one considers Daniel 12:12 and its meaning... So let me help.... It is the ONLY time written when God could Bless those the curse him ( like he asks us to do ) and Those left behind from the rapture - and not Bless those who need no Blessing becasue they went in the rapture. So.. I expect the rapture took place just before that Blessing. And this is not the Only reason I consider a pre-wrath rapture.

Those who don't believe the pre-trib rapture, Either don't know the Bible. Or they are calling God a liar.
You cannot show me where the Bible says the Church will go through the great tribulation period,
But you could show me where the Elect Jews, The backsliders and those who get saved during the tribulation, Will go through the tribulation.
There are no scriptures that says the Church goes through the tribulation, But there are scriptures that prove the Church isn't appointed to the comming wrath., [As I have proved].
 

Rex

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Alanforchrist said:
Those who don't believe the pre-trib rapture, Either don't know the Bible. Or they are calling God a liar.
You cannot show me where the Bible says the Church will go through the great tribulation period,
But you could show me where the Elect Jews, The backsliders and those who get saved during the tribulation, Will go through the tribulation.
There are no scriptures that says the Church goes through the tribulation, But there are scriptures that prove the Church isn't appointed to the comming wrath., [As I have proved].
A special type of salvation or the division of Jews and Gentiles always adds a twisted self satisfying dimension to scripture.
Isn't it nice we follow a God that practices apartheid "racism" in the new covenant --> not

Of course this is the popular opinion and I find it rather useless to change peoples opinion about.
When I first started listening to teachers in 79 this teaching has always troubled me that some how God is a respecter of ethnicity regardless of their opinion of Jesus Christ. You have to butcher "ignore" so many scriptures to justify such a thing it is useless to readdress the message of salvation all over again.


Gal 3
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There
is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is
neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Paul was quite a lier as far as what is taught today.
 

Brothertom

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I was a salesman & business owner as a young man, supporting my family. I had a Jewish boss about 35 years ago who was very successful, & he had a saying;

"There are two things you cannot deal with; Poverty & Ignorance"....meaning that these were futile & impossible to overcome.

"Those who don't believe the pre-trib rapture, Either don't know the Bible. Or they are calling God a liar.
You cannot show me where the Bible says the Church will go through the great tribulation period,
But you could show me where the Elect Jews, The backsliders and those who get saved during the tribulation, Will go through the tribulation.
There are no scriptures that says the Church goes through the tribulation, But there are scriptures that prove the Church isn't appointed to the comming wrath., [As I have proved]."................AlanforChrist

Alan: You have "proved" nothing but that you cling to unscriptural Dogma while insisting that all comers just don't know their Bible, are IGNORANT, or they are just calling God a Liar....because you know the truth & they are deceived. This is a spirit of Dogma & Stubborness, & spiritual pride....a poverty of sorts.

Jesus said;
“But immediately AFTER the TRIBULATION of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

And THEN the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man COMING on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.
HE WILL SEND forth His angels with a great trumpet and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.".............JESUS

This is the rapture; the second coming, spoken clearly & directly from the Lord Himself. I'll bet that you have a twisted answer for this, & probably despise all who disagree with you. You have mistaken Tribulation pressure for wrath. Millions of Christians have been persecuted in Tribulations of their times; recorded & unrecorded; especially before & during the Reformation, & the early Church..[ Hebrews 11 ].

A Multitude from the Tribulation...THEY WENT IN; THEY CAME OUT. "WHO ARE THESE?"

"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, FROM EVERY NATION AND TRIBES AND TONGUES, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

[ These are not just Jews, are they?...showing that the Elect are of a global Union, the True church of God.]

.... and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,
“Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying,
“Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”

Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, WHO ARE THEY, and where have they come from?” said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me,

“These are the ONES WHO COME OUT OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Christians; the Church: they went in, they came out


PREPARATION EXHORTATION FROM THE LORD.

"Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or 'There He is,’ do not believe him.

For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

Behold, I have told you in advance. So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the SECRET rooms,’ do not believe them.

For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be."

THAT DAY WILL NOT COME UNTIL...
Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

!!!!!!! Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; !!!!!!!


... that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.



But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.


It was for this He called you through our gospel, [r]that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us." PAUL.


For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
Therefore comfort one another with these words.


One coming, one gathering, one church, occuring at the end of the age when Jesus descends in His Wrath to destroy the armies of the ANTI-CHRIST, after translating the dead in Christ & gathering His Church for the Great Marriage Supper of the Lamb!.......after the "Tribulation of those days"...[ Matthew 24. ]

We must prepare our hearts; to fear Him, Love Him, & obey Him fully, without compromise. There are hard times coming, & glorious times coming.




 

Alanforchrist

Member
Dec 25, 2007
502
9
18
74
Rex said:
A special type of salvation or the division of Jews and Gentiles always adds a twisted self satisfying dimension to scripture.
Isn't it nice we follow a God that practices apartheid "racism" in the new covenant --> not


Of course this is the popular opinion and I find it rather useless to change peoples opinion about.
When I first started listening to teachers in 79 this teaching has always troubled me that some how God is a respecter of ethnicity regardless of their opinion of Jesus Christ. You have to butcher "ignore" so many scriptures to justify such a thing it is useless to readdress the message of salvation all over again.


Gal 3
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There
is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is
neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Paul was quite a lier as far as what is taught today.
You are twisting the truth, NAUGHTY.
There are three groups of people in the Bible,
[1] The Church.
[2]The Jews.
[3]The Gentiles 1 Cor 10:32.

If a Jew or a Gentile gets saved, They become the body of Christ...The Church.
And only the Church is saved and go up in the pre-trib tapture, The Jews and Gentiles that aren't saved, Will go through the tribulation.

Brothertom said:
I was a salesman & business owner as a young man, supporting my family. I had a Jewish boss about 35 years ago who was very successful, & he had a saying;

"There are two things you cannot deal with; Poverty & Ignorance"....meaning that these were futile & impossible to overcome.

"Those who don't believe the pre-trib rapture, Either don't know the Bible. Or they are calling God a liar.
You cannot show me where the Bible says the Church will go through the great tribulation period,
But you could show me where the Elect Jews, The backsliders and those who get saved during the tribulation, Will go through the tribulation.
There are no scriptures that says the Church goes through the tribulation, But there are scriptures that prove the Church isn't appointed to the comming wrath., [As I have proved]."................AlanforChrist

Alan: You have "proved" nothing but that you cling to unscriptural Dogma while insisting that all comers just don't know their Bible, are IGNORANT, or they are just calling God a Liar....because you know the truth & they are deceived. This is a spirit of Dogma & Stubborness, & spiritual pride....a poverty of sorts.

Jesus said;
“But immediately AFTER the TRIBULATION of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

And THEN the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man COMING on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.
HE WILL SEND forth His angels with a great trumpet and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.".............JESUS

This is the rapture; the second coming, spoken clearly & directly from the Lord Himself. I'll bet that you have a twisted answer for this, & probably despise all who disagree with you. You have mistaken Tribulation pressure for wrath. Millions of Christians have been persecuted in Tribulations of their times; recorded & unrecorded; especially before & during the Reformation, & the early Church..[ Hebrews 11 ].

A Multitude from the Tribulation...THEY WENT IN; THEY CAME OUT. "WHO ARE THESE?"

"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, FROM EVERY NATION AND TRIBES AND TONGUES, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

[ These are not just Jews, are they?...showing that the Elect are of a global Union, the True church of God.]

.... and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,
“Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying,
“Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”

Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, WHO ARE THEY, and where have they come from?” said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me,

“These are the ONES WHO COME OUT OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Christians; the Church: they went in, they came out


PREPARATION EXHORTATION FROM THE LORD.

"Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or 'There He is,’ do not believe him.

For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

Behold, I have told you in advance. So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the SECRET rooms,’ do not believe them.

For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be."

THAT DAY WILL NOT COME UNTIL...
Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

!!!!!!! Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; !!!!!!!


... that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.



But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.


It was for this He called you through our gospel, [r]that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us." PAUL.


For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
Therefore comfort one another with these words.


One coming, one gathering, one church, occuring at the end of the age when Jesus descends in His Wrath to destroy the armies of the ANTI-CHRIST, after translating the dead in Christ & gathering His Church for the Great Marriage Supper of the Lamb!.......after the "Tribulation of those days"...[ Matthew 24. ]

We must prepare our hearts; to fear Him, Love Him, & obey Him fully, without compromise. There are hard times coming, & glorious times coming.




There you go AGAIN, Twisting the scriptures,There are to many pre-trib rapture scripltures that prove the Church goes before the tribulation starts, For it not to be true.



You are confusing the elect Jews with the elect Church.

Matt 24: 30, Says the tribes of the earth shall mourn..NOT THE CHURCH.

The "Clouds" in v 30, Are the Church, If you knew the Bible, You would know clouds are symbolic of people, And are used in relation to people.



2 The 2: 3, Doesn't say "A falling away from the faith"..DOES IT??..NO..NO. False teachers made that lie up.

The Greek meaning is, "A departing, A withdrawing", And in relation to the context, It means the Church is raptured before the anit-christ can came...V6-7 says the Church is holding the anti-christ back until it [The Church] is taken out of the way, The rapture.





If you knew the Bible, You would know that when Jesus comes back phisically, There is no rapture.

Plus Jesus is coming to take His Church to heaven. Jn 14: 1--3, And when He comes back phisically, No one goes to heaven, We reign on EARTH with Jesus.



As I said, Anyone who believes the Church goes through the tribulation period, Either doesn't know the Bible, Or they are calling God a liar...Either way, Shame on you.
 

Foreigner

New Member
Apr 14, 2010
2,583
123
0
I have said it before and I will say it again:

There are great and mighty men and women of God who have spent decades trying to determine whether there would be a pre, mid, or post tribulation.

Their motives have never been to support one specific belief, but rather to learn the truth.

Yet these powerful and deeply reverent lovers of Christ all read the same scriptures and many come to completely different conclusions.

Why is that? Is God simply confounding them for a purpose? Is he allowing the devil to influence one group or the other?

I can find multiple scriptures that seem to confirm a Pre-Tribulation Rapture......but I can also find multiple scriptures that seem to confirm the idea that Christ will not return until the very end.

The scripture is taken in context and not "massaged" to try to support a specific agenda.

I would put forth that none of us here are really in a position to confirm once and for all either the Pre or Post tribulation event.

Expect Him to return soon, but don't expect Him to follow your exact timetable.

Keep paying into your 401K, planning for your retirement, setting aside money for your kid's college education, planning on actually paying off your 30 year mortgage, etc.

....but also continue to look to the sky.

If the pre-Tribulation Rapture is true, I can guarantee you will not find yourself lamenting how you choose to spend your money before it occured.




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