Preterism misrepresents Scripture

[WPM]

You were directing false charges to me! Therefore I replied to you directly. Covenantee has not directed false charges against me, only you have. It isn't for me to speak out for you or him, you can and do speak out for yourself.

That was not my intent. I apologize if it come across that way.

Do you believe the charges Covenantee threw at me are fair or accurate? Do you think Covenantee has "a control issue" for misrepresenting me?

 

[WPM]

Paul I have consistently stated the end of the Old Covenant and beginning of the New Covenant came with the cross and resurrection.

So, why are you arguing for "the end" of the same in AD70? What ceremonial system ended then? I do not get what you are teaching.

 

[rwb]

That was not my intent. I apologize if it come across that way.

Do you believe the charges Covenantee threw at me are fair? Do you think Covenantee has "a control issue" for misrepresenting me?

Thank you Paul, I appreciate your sincerity, and have always enjoyed contributing in discussions with you. If you have issues with a brother in Christ, you should address him personally.

 

[Truth7t7]

The church is seen in heaven at the supper before the Lord returns.

Right?

Rev 19, right?

The church is seen on earth below, being eyewitnesses of the great tribulation and second coming right?

Luke 21 Below Right?

"The Church" seen in Luke 21 below, those who are persecuted for the name of Jesus Christ, they will be eyewitnesses of the future great tribulation and second coming of Jesus in the heavens, your claim of a pre-tribulation rapture would be false

The Tribulation verses 25-26 below, the Second Coming verses 27-28 below

"Yes" The Church On Earth, Hated By The World For The Name Of Jesus (Verse 17)

Luke 21:17 & 25-28KJV
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

[rwb]

So, why are you arguing for "the end" of the same in AD70? What ceremonial system ended then? I do not get what you are teaching.

I'm not arguing "the end" that came in AD 70 is the same end that came with Christ. The ceremonial and sacrificial Laws according to the Covenant were no longer beneficial after the cross. Those continuing in keeping these Old laws bring greater condemnation to themselves. This time between the cross and AD 70 was when the iniquity of the nation would become full. Consider for instance, "the iniquity of the Amorites". The nation was a desolation unto God, and His rejection of them complete with the crucifixion. AD 70 was simply a witness to the fact that God had rejected His chosen people, saving only the remnant of them who were of faith in Christ.

 

[WPM]

I'm not arguing "the end" that came in AD 70 is the same end that came with Christ. The ceremonial and sacrificial Laws according to the Covenant were no longer beneficial after the cross. Those continuing in keeping these Old laws bring greater condemnation to themselves. This time between the cross and AD 70 was when the iniquity of the nation would become full. Consider for instance, "the iniquity of the Amorites". The nation was a desolation unto God, and His rejection of them complete with the crucifixion. AD 70 was simply a witness to the fact that God had rejected His chosen people, saving only the remnant of them who were of faith in Christ.

But the term "the end" without any other stated explanation always refers to the end of time. It is like terms such as "the day" or "that day" in Scripture. The Holy Spirit takes it for granted that the listener back in the day and the reader today will know what that pivotal day is.

Bible students have no difficulty with the phrase "the beginning" but get all funny when it comes to "the end."

 

[rwb]

But the term "the end" without any other stated explanation always refers to the end of time. It is like terms such as "the day" or "that day" in Scripture. The Holy Spirit takes it for granted that the listener back in the day and the reader today will know what that pivotal day is.

Bible students have no difficulty with the phrase "the beginning" but get all funny when it comes to "the end."

I believe "the end" refers to whatever is in view according to context Paul. Something came to "the end" in the first century after the Gospel of the Kingdom had been preached unto all the world then known. That was not "the end of the world" that shall come when the Gospel shall be a witness unto ALL nations, those that were not in existence in the first century.

 

[WPM]

I believe "the end" refers to whatever is in view according to context Paul. Something came to "the end" in the first century after the Gospel of the Kingdom had been preached unto all the world then known. That was not "the end of the world" that shall come when the Gospel shall be a witness unto ALL nations, those that were not in existence in the first century.

What i wrote in my last post answers this.

 

[Truther]

The church is seen on earth below, being eyewitnesses of the great tribulation and second coming right?

Luke 21 Below Right?

"The Church" seen in Luke 21 below, those who are persecuted for the name of Jesus Christ, they will be eyewitnesses of the future great tribulation and second coming of Jesus in the heavens, your claim of a pre-tribulation rapture would be false

The Tribulation verses 25-26 below, the Second Coming verses 27-28 below

"Yes" The Church On Earth, Hated By The World For The Name Of Jesus (Verse 17)

Luke 21:17 & 25-28KJV
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

The church is seen at the doors of the GT.

Not entering into it.

During the GT, the church is seen here...


6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

 

[covenantee]

So, is the end of this "Mosaic Age" the end of the old covenant in your view?

I don't know what you mean by "Mosaic Age".

Here's what I said in post 124:

God spiritually destroyed OT Israel at Calvary.
God physically destroyed OT Israel at the destruction of Jerusalem.

Here's what you said in post 129:

I am not disputing that.

 

[rwb]

What i wrote in my last post answers this.

I believe most often when we read "the end" is speaks of our physical life in this age. The end of physical life is the end of our time on this earth, but it is not the end of all time.

 

[WPM]

I don't know what you mean by "Mosaic Age".

Here's what I said in post 124:

God spiritually destroyed OT Israel at Calvary.
God physically destroyed OT Israel at the destruction of Jerusalem.

Here's what you said in post 129:

I am not disputing that.

So, AD70 was not the end of this "Mosaic Age"?

 

[WPM]

I believe most often when we read "the end" is speaks of our physical life in this age. The end of physical life is the end of our time on this earth, but it is not the end of all time.

When the passages that use the phrase "the end" [Gr. telos] describe the exact same detail that is used elsewhere in Scripture to describe the second coming and the end of this current fallen state it is easy to understand what it refers to. I am talking about the actual mention of "the coming" of Christ ([Gr. parousia], the completion of the great commission to all nations, the termination of the overcoming period, the physical resurrection of all the redeemed, the destruction of all the wicked, the removal of all rebellion and offence, the time of giving account and the reward of all.

No one could argue with any credence that the old covenant ended in AD70. That is simply not true. All i see is Preterists playing with words in order to try and get a square peg into a round hole.

 

[rwb]

No one could argue with any credence that the old covenant ended in AD70. That is simply not true. All i see is Preterists playing with words in order to try and get a square peg into a round hole.

See reply #285

 

[WPM]

I'm not arguing "the end" that came in AD 70 is the same end that came with Christ. The ceremonial and sacrificial Laws according to the Covenant were no longer beneficial after the cross. Those continuing in keeping these Old laws bring greater condemnation to themselves. This time between the cross and AD 70 was when the iniquity of the nation would become full. Consider for instance, "the iniquity of the Amorites". The nation was a desolation unto God, and His rejection of them complete with the crucifixion. AD 70 was simply a witness to the fact that God had rejected His chosen people, saving only the remnant of them who were of faith in Christ.

I don't disagree with this.

 

[rwb]

I don't disagree with this.

Then perhaps you can stop saying or implying that I argue in the same way full preterists do. I believe Covenantee is also in agreement with reply #285.

 

[covenantee]

Exactly! I never understood why a discussion given to the first century disciples could be interpreted in a way that has NO application for them? The Bible is logical. Trying to force illogic into it makes no sense at all.

Yes, and well beyond the disciples. From the early church fathers, to the Reformation historicists, of those who exegeted Matthew 24, there is a clear majority who recognized the "end" to be referring to the destruction of Jerusalem.

 

[covenantee]

So, AD70 was not the end of this "Mosaic Age"?

Define "Mosaic Age".

 

[covenantee]

The word genea means:

1) fathered, birth, nativity
2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
2b) metaphorically a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
2b1) especially in a bad sense, a perverse nation
3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time
4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years

There is only one definition which Strong applies to Matthew 24:34:

"the whole multitude of men living at the same time"

 

[WPM]

Then perhaps you can stop saying or implying that I argue in the same way full preterists do. I believe Covenantee is also in agreement with reply #285.

I know neither of you are Full Preterists. It is just that some of the arguments are the same.