Preterism misrepresents Scripture

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rwb

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You are not getting the point. You need to step back and look at what was actually being discussed here, which was the meaning of the word "sunteleias". I said it means "the end". Which is true! It does not mean "the end of the age" as you are trying to claim. Again, the word "age" is a separate word, "aion". So, "sunteleias" means "end" and "aion" means "age". I misquoted nothing.

Where we read only "the end" it is NOT translated from the Greek word syntéleia. For example consider vs 14 where "the end" has been translated from the Greek word télos.

Matthew 24:14 (KJV) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

The same truth applies to "the end" found in 1Cor.

1 Corinthians 15:24 (KJV) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

This leads me to believe that neither of these verses are referring to Christ coming again. The Gospel of the Kingdom, according to Scripture had been preached unto all the then known world (first century AD), then came the end of the ceremonial and sacrificial laws when the city temple and buildings were literally destroyed. And as we agree this literal, physical destruction finds significant spiritual application through spiritually discerning the true temple and body is Christ, and the Old ended and the New came from the cross.

And in the verse in Corinthians the end when our body physically dies and we are delivered up to the Kingdom of God. We ascend up to heaven, according to Paul (vs 44) a spiritual body when our natural body has died.
 

covenantee

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Those who are of the natural offspring of David or who have attached them to such in a national sense.

Can you do the same?
That today encompasses the entire human race, as Abraham's genome is ubiquitous after more than three millennia of natural genetic dispersion and diffusion.

Obviously God failed to destroy Israel as you define it.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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It's literally things that come upon the spiritual Kingdom of God as the Gospel is preached unto all the world. Don't forget Christ is speaking to His disciples about things in this age that will affect them, and in fact many to be martyred for their faith.

Many professing Christians among the body of Christ will be deceived by those who profess to be of Christ, who are not.

Literal war and rumors of war have always been. But the warfare that affects the disciples during this age that shall bring the disciples "great tribulation" are the on-going spiritual battles being waged between the forces for good and the forces for evil.

Throughout redemptive history we read of battling of kingdoms against kingdoms, both literal/physical as well as the spiritual battles between Satan and his minions and Christ and His disciples. There have also been literal famines, pestilences, and earthquakes at variou times and in various places. These all come as a result of the greatest famine/plague is of hearing the Word of God. Refusal to hear His Word results in consequences in the natural world.
I'm sorry, but I don't see any reason to see Jesus as speaking of anything but literal wars, famines, earthquakes, etc. in the Olivet Discourse. I think His reasoning for mentioning that was for people to not think that the end must be at hand when those kinds of things are happening. He made it clear that the end is not yet when those things happen. But, He also indicated that those things would happen more frequently and/or with more intensity as time went on.

I said these things written must be spiritually discerned. I did not say they are not literal or physical.
Of course they must be. I agree. It wasn't clear to me that you are only making that point.

I would say what is written if for the disciples to understand in all the ages from the first to the last. I believe there are two possibilities for how we should understand "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." It can either be that the nation of Israel will always remain until Christ returns, or "this generation" as evil shall be with us until Christ returns.
I think either of those possibilities is reasonable, but I lean towards believing it's referring to the second possibility. When Jesus spoke to "this generation" He referred to them as "this sinful and adulterous generation" and "this wicked generation". Peter referred to "this corrupt generation" (Acts 2:40), so it seems that He was speaking about a type of people (sinful, adulterous, wicked, corrupt). The type of people that go back to Cain who spilled "the blood of righteous Abel" (Matt 23:35).

It's not found in the discourse but is found to be truth from other passages and verses. I believe the focus was not a sign for when Christ would come again. Rather it is the SIGN itself that would be evidence that Christ would come again and that this world would have an end.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Where we read only "the end" it is NOT translated from the Greek word syntéleia. For example consider vs 14 where "the end" has been translated from the Greek word télos.

Matthew 24:14 (KJV)
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Yes, I know that and did not say otherwise. The point I've made several times now is that the words are synonyms and can be used interchangeably.

The same truth applies to "the end" found in 1Cor.

1 Corinthians 15:24 (KJV) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

This leads me to believe that neither of these verses are referring to Christ coming again.
How can you think that about 1 Corinthians 15:24? Look at the context of the verse.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Paul associated "the end" directly with the time of Christ's coming when the dead in Christ will be resurrected. So, what makes you believe that 1 Cor 15:24 is not referring to Christ coming again? I think it clearly does.

The Gospel of the Kingdom, according to Scripture had been preached unto all the then known world (first century AD), then came the end of the ceremonial and sacrificial laws when the city temple and buildings were literally destroyed.
Wait a minute now. Please think about this carefully. For one thing, the end of the ceremonial and sacrificial laws (the old covenant) came when Jesus died on the cross, not when the city and temple buildings were destroyed. To me, that is not debatable. People may have foolishly continued following those laws after His death and resurrection, but that doesn't mean He hadn't already effectually put an end to them.

Also, when Paul wrote that the gospel had been preached to the then known world (Romans 10:18, Colossians 1:6, etc.) he wrote that in the late 50s and early 60s AD. That was several years before the city and temple were destroyed. So, it's your contention that Jesus was saying in Matthew 24:14 that the gospel would be preached to the known world and then several years later the end would come?

That's not my impression of what He said. It seems to me that He was saying the end would come immediately or very soon after the gospel was preached in all the world. It seems to me that He was speaking in a different context than those that spoke of the gospel having been preached to the then known world. I think He was talking about it being preached literally everywhere, including places that were not known about back then.

And as we agree this literal, physical destruction finds significant spiritual application through spiritually discerning the true temple and body is Christ, and the Old ended and the New came from the cross.
While that is true, I don't think that has anything to do with what Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse.

And in the verse in Corinthians the end when our body physically dies and we are delivered up to the Kingdom of God. We ascend up to heaven, according to Paul (vs 44) a spiritual body when our natural body has died.
I think you're missing the context of 1 Cor 15:24. The context is in relation to the resurrection of the bodies of the dead in Christ at His second coming. Don't you believe that all of the dead in Christ will be resurrected at the same time when Jesus comes, as Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17? He also indicated that they will all be resurrected at the same time in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 and indicated it will happen "at the last trumpet". It is when He comes and the dead in Christ are all raised at the last trumpet in the future that the end will come and He will deliver the kingdom that He has been reigning over already for a long time to the Father.
 

Truth7t7

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Pre trib rapture is the truth.

You just don't want to see it.

I can prove Matt 24(Noah dialogue) is 1 Thes 4.
A pre-trib rapture isnt found in scripture, the church will be present on this earth to witness the great tribulation and second coming of Jesus in the heavens

"Yes" The Church Will Be Present on Earth, There Won't Be A Pre-Tribulation Rapture, Don't Be Deceived

"The Church" seen in Luke 21 below, those who are persecuted for the name of Jesus Christ, they will be eyewitnesses of the future great tribulation and second coming of Jesus in the heavens, your claim of a pre-tribulation rapture would be false

The Tribulation verses 25-26 below, the Second Coming verses 27-28 below

"Yes" The Church On Earth, Hated By The World For The Name Of Jesus (Verse 17)

Luke 21:17 & 25-28KJV

17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
 

rwb

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Yes, I know that and did not say otherwise. The point I've made several times now is that the words are synonyms and can be used interchangeably.

I wouldn't say the words are synonymous even though they both are "the end". But one is very specifically "the end of the world", and the other always "the end" of whatever is being referenced. For instance vs. 14 says after the Gospel of the Kingdom is preached in all the world, then "the end" shall come. What end, since the word translated is télos ? Christ doesn't say then shall the end of the world come. Why, if that is what He means? Whenever we read "the end of the world" it's always translated from syntéleia. Why not here if that's what Christ means?

The Gospel had been preached to all the known world in the first century AD. Since the end of the world did not come then, what ended?

Matthew 24:14 (KJV) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Even though the Gospel had been preached in all the known world in the first century, we know that all the nations of the world did not exist then, so the Gospel preached to the world then had not yet been a witness unto all nations.
How can you think that about 1 Corinthians 15:24? Look at the context of the verse.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Paul associated "the end" directly with the time of Christ's coming when the dead in Christ will be resurrected. So, what makes you believe that 1 Cor 15:24 is not referring to Christ coming again? I think it clearly does.

Paul was speaking of those who had already died in faith before Christ became the firstfruits of them. They had part in the resurrection of Christ, the first resurrection when they ascended in spiritual body to heaven with Christ. This isn't speaking of the bodily resurrection that Paul says will come when the last trump sounds. Paul is speaking of a spiritual rising to life after death since Christ has become the firstfruits. Just as He promised, Christ came for those who were already dead and buried in Him

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Wait a minute now. Please think about this carefully. For one thing, the end of the ceremonial and sacrificial laws (the old covenant) came when Jesus died on the cross, not when the city and temple buildings were destroyed. To me, that is not debatable. People may have foolishly continued following those laws after His death and resurrection, but that doesn't mean He hadn't already effectually put an end to them.

In a legal sense, yes the ceremonial and sacrificial laws ended with the cross. But actually the Jews continued the Mosiac Laws until they no longer had a holy city or holy temple.
Also, when Paul wrote that the gospel had been preached to the then known world (Romans 10:18, Colossians 1:6, etc.) he wrote that in the late 50s and early 60s AD. That was several years before the city and temple were destroyed. So, it's your contention that Jesus was saying in Matthew 24:14 that the gospel would be preached to the known world and then several years later the end would come?

You think it would come suddenly after the known world had been preached the Gospel, but télos does not indicate the end of whatever is in view could not be several years after that. Once again, you can see the definition for yourself. It's simply the conclusion of whatever it points to. Something that would finally utterly end.

τέλος télos, tel'-os
from a primary τέλλω téllō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly, the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination (literally, figuratively or indefinitely), result (immediate, ultimate or prophetic), purpose); specially, an impost or levy (as paid):—+ continual, custom, end(-ing), finally, uttermost.

I think you're missing the context of 1 Cor 15:24. The context is in relation to the resurrection of the bodies of the dead in Christ at His second coming. Don't you believe that all of the dead in Christ will be resurrected at the same time when Jesus comes, as Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17? He also indicated that they will all be resurrected at the same time in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 and indicated it will happen "at the last trumpet". It is when He comes and the dead in Christ are all raised at the last trumpet in the future that the end will come and He will deliver the kingdom that He has been reigning over already for a long time to the Father.

No Paul is NOT speaking of the bodily resurrection he later says will come when the last trump sounds. He is speaking of the spiritual rising of the dead in Christ after He became the firstfruits. What does it mean when Paul writes in Adam we all die, but all who are in Christ are made alive? We're made alive in Christ when we are born again, so through His Spirit in us only our body dies, just as Paul tells us. Our body is dead and buried, then in Christ we go from being natural, physical body to being a spiritual body in heaven, where we are as is the Lord from heaven, heavenly/celestial bodies. Just as in life we bear the image of natural Adam, so too in death we shall bear the image of the heavenly.
 
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WPM

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Where we read only "the end" it is NOT translated from the Greek word syntéleia. For example consider vs 14 where "the end" has been translated from the Greek word télos.

Matthew 24:14 (KJV)
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

The same truth applies to "the end" found in 1Cor.

1 Corinthians 15:24 (KJV) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

This leads me to believe that neither of these verses are referring to Christ coming again. The Gospel of the Kingdom, according to Scripture had been preached unto all the then known world (first century AD), then came the end of the ceremonial and sacrificial laws when the city temple and buildings were literally destroyed. And as we agree this literal, physical destruction finds significant spiritual application through spiritually discerning the true temple and body is Christ, and the Old ended and the New came from the cross.

And in the verse in Corinthians the end when our body physically dies and we are delivered up to the Kingdom of God. We ascend up to heaven, according to Paul (vs 44) a spiritual body when our natural body has died.
This is Full Preterism bro. Sad!
 

WPM

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That today encompasses the entire human race, as Abraham's genome is ubiquitous after more than three millennia of natural genetic dispersion and diffusion.

Obviously God failed to destroy Israel as you define it.
Not so. There are many ethnic groups out there that originate to non-Hebrew nations.
 

covenantee

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You seem to build your doctrines on man. I prefer to let the Bible speak for itself.
Since no pre-19th century recognized orthodox Christian expositors futurized the "end" in Matthew 24, do you think that they didn't let the Bible speak for itself?
 
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rwb

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Since no pre-19th century recognized orthodox Christian expositors futurized the "end" in Matthew 24, do you think that they didn't let the Bible speak for itself?

Exactly! I never understood why a discussion given to the first century disciples could be interpreted in a way that has NO application for them? The Bible is logical. Trying to force illogic into it makes no sense at all.
 
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rwb

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This is Full Preterism bro. Sad!

You seem to be having a control issue Paul! That is very sad! We have more agreement on doctrine than disagreement, but when those who typically agree arrive at an understanding that you don't approve of, you resort to name calling and slandering. My heart goes out to you in this struggle, and I pray you might overcome it.
 

Truther

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A pre-trib rapture isnt found in scripture, the church will be present on this earth to witness the great tribulation and second coming of Jesus in the heavens

"Yes" The Church Will Be Present on Earth, There Won't Be A Pre-Tribulation Rapture, Don't Be Deceived

"The Church" seen in Luke 21 below, those who are persecuted for the name of Jesus Christ, they will be eyewitnesses of the future great tribulation and second coming of Jesus in the heavens, your claim of a pre-tribulation rapture would be false

The Tribulation verses 25-26 below, the Second Coming verses 27-28 below

"Yes" The Church On Earth, Hated By The World For The Name Of Jesus (Verse 17)

Luke 21:17 & 25-28KJV

17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
The church is seen in heaven at the supper before the Lord returns.

Right?

Rev 19, right?
 

WPM

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You seem to be having a control issue Paul! That is very sad! We have more agreement on doctrine than disagreement, but when those who typically agree arrive at an understanding that you don't approve of, you resort to name calling and slandering. My heart goes out to you in this struggle, and I pray you might overcome it.

That is simply not true. I have no interest in controlling anyone. I have a passion for God's truth, as you and Covenatee have. I am not in any way saying you are Full Preterist. I am saying: many of the arguments that are being used here are those used by Full Preterists. That is true!

Why do you not say the same to Covenantee? Is it because he is agreeing with you? I think you need to be objective here. He accused me in this past few days:

I'm talking to a fantasy futurist. Not much difference.

When did you decide to sell out to Darby/Scofield dispensational futurism?

You are espousing classic modernist Darby/Scofield futurist fallacy

a bloated surfeit of private interpretation, every time.

keep that Scripture coming. Every quote of yours re-confirms the reality:

He knows these are ludicrous charges, so do you. Are you going to accuse him also of having a "control issue"? I doubt it.

I am sorry if I have offended you, but I must be true to what I see in this Book.
 
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WPM

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That today encompasses the entire human race, as Abraham's genome is ubiquitous after more than three millennia of natural genetic dispersion and diffusion.

Obviously God failed to destroy Israel as you define it.

I did not say He destroyed Israel, you did. He did not. I told you that. There is still a place for them in His plan. Read Romans 9-11. The good news of the Gospel is for all nations, tribes and kindreds. Read the NT.
 

WPM

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Where we read only "the end" it is NOT translated from the Greek word syntéleia. For example consider vs 14 where "the end" has been translated from the Greek word télos.

Matthew 24:14 (KJV) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

The same truth applies to "the end" found in 1Cor.

1 Corinthians 15:24 (KJV) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

This leads me to believe that neither of these verses are referring to Christ coming again. The Gospel of the Kingdom, according to Scripture had been preached unto all the then known world (first century AD), then came the end of the ceremonial and sacrificial laws when the city temple and buildings were literally destroyed. And as we agree this literal, physical destruction finds significant spiritual application through spiritually discerning the true temple and body is Christ, and the Old ended and the New came from the cross.

And in the verse in Corinthians the end when our body physically dies and we are delivered up to the Kingdom of God. We ascend up to heaven, according to Paul (vs 44) a spiritual body when our natural body has died.

So, is the end of this "Mosaic Age" the end of the old covenant in your view?
 

WPM

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Because He was seeking to ensure that the end of Israel in 70AD, would not be confused with the end of the age at His Second Coming.

Wasn't that logical and reasonable?
So, is the end of this "Mosaic Age" the end of the old covenant in your view?
 

rwb

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That is simply not true. I have no interest in controlling anyone. I have a passion for God's truth, as you and Covenatee have. I am not in any way saying you are Full Preterist. I am saying: many of the arguments that are being used here are those used by Full Preterists. That is true!

Why do you not say the same to Covenantee? Is it because he is agreeing with you? I think you need to be objective here. He accused me in this past few days:

He knows these are ludicrous charges, so do you. Are you going to accuse him also of having a "control issue"? I doubt it.

I am sorry if I have offended you, but I must be true to what I see in this Book.

You were directing false charges to me! Therefore I replied to you directly. Covenantee has not directed false charges against me, only you have. It isn't for me to speak out for you or him, you can and do speak out for yourself.
 

rwb

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So, is the end of this "Mosaic Age" the end of the old covenant in your view?

Paul I have consistently stated the end of the Old Covenant and beginning of the New Covenant came with the cross and resurrection.