Preterism's Claim Of 70AD Fulfillment Is Silenced In One Verse, Luke 21:35

[VictoryinJesus]

You're right to bring the poor widow in to bring understanding to the passage, but I don't see Jesus' depreciation of the temple as an actual *invalidation* of the temple worship. After all, God established the temple worship, and it would be inconsistent for him to depreciate something he had already set up and valued.

I’m not saying that, or didn’t mean to imply such. Hebrews 10:24-25 Comes to mind ‘And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: [25] Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is ; but exhorting one another : and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.’

but also “After all, God established the temple worship,” …1 Peter 2:4-6 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, [5] Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. [6] Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

John 4:21-24 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. [22] Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. [23] But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. [24] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I’m not saying that, or didn’t mean to imply such. Hebrews 10:24-25 Comes to mind ‘And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: [25] Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is ; but exhorting one another : and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.’

but also “After all, God established the temple worship,” …1 Peter 2:4-6 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, [5] Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. [6] Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

John 4:21-24 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. [22] Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. [23] But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. [24] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Yea, I agree. Well said. I wasn't so much putting your position down than simply clarifying what I believe about it. I've had these discussions before, and some feel that physical worship was always sort of artificial worship, designed to be displaced by spiritual worship. Explaining that was more my purpose than trying to expose any errors in your position. Sorry it came across that way.

Physical temple worship, even though it was temporal, was nevertheless true spiritual worship. There is no dichotomy between worship under the Law and spiritual worship. Obeying God was spiritual, period. If we agree on this, we're good.

I just believe that God made it clear that worship under the temple system would always result in a division in Israel between true worshipers and those who worshipped artificially. Some would always engage in perfunctory worship, and would hide secret sins within their heart, where nobody but God could see them.

And so, Jesus himself became the deciding factor as to who truly worshiped God and who didn't. The temporal, physical worship came down and was displaced by a worship not exclusively limited to the nation of Israel. The physical aspects of the Law, such as the temple worship, would no longer focus only on Israel, and prevent other nations from worshiping God in their own lands. All nations can worship outside of Jerusalem and in their own lands, or on any mountain.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

You're right to bring the poor widow in to bring understanding to the passage, but I don't see Jesus' depreciation of the temple as an actual *invalidation* of the temple worship. After all, God established the temple worship, and it would be inconsistent for him to depreciate something he had already set up and valued. So what did he mean?

Jesus was saying that if temple worship isn't done properly, such as in showing respect for sincere giving, then the temple worship is nothing more than a façade. It is just a stone building with no heart, and not like the widow had when she gave even a little bit.

There is no question that God doesn't fit within a temple, and make His existence with Israel contingent upon Him remaining in a temple. He's not going anywhere--not even if the covenant is broken, and the temple destroyed. God is everywhere, and His grace remains in effect even without the covenant of Law, and even without the temple building.

So Jesus is himself God's true temple from heaven, and he came down to outlast the temple worship, to bring about a worship that lasts forever. The temple worship was only there temporarily until he could come and provide better sacrifices that atone for man's sins forever.

The temple sacrifices could not accomplish that, but could only "hold the fort" temporarily. Once Israel failed under the Law, a new system was required that would save only those who truly wished to take worship seriously. And Israel would be rebuilt only on true worshipers.

2 Peter 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

what do you think…they with feigned words make merchandise of you. Do you think that is making merchandise of you is making merchandise of His house of prayer?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Yea, I agree. Well said. I wasn't so much putting your position down than simply clarifying what I believe about it. I've had these discussions before, and some feel that physical worship was always sort of artificial worship, designed to be displaced by spiritual worship. Explaining that was more my purpose than trying to expose any errors in your position. Sorry it came across that way.

Physical temple worship, even though it was temporal, was nevertheless true spiritual worship. There is no dichotomy between worship under the Law and spiritual worship. Obeying God was spiritual, period. If we agree on this, we're good.

I just believe that God made it clear that worship under the temple system would always result in a division in Israel between true worshipers and those who worshipped artificially. Some would always engage in perfunctory worship, and would hide secret sins within their heart, where nobody but God could see them.

And so, Jesus himself became the deciding factor as to who truly worshiped God and who didn't. The temporal, physical worship came down and was displaced by a worship not exclusively limited to the nation of Israel. The physical aspects of the Law, such as the temple worship, would no longer focus only on Israel, and prevent other nations from worshiping God in their own lands. All nations can worship outside of Jerusalem and in their own lands, or on any mountain.

understood but admittedly I’m confused over preterism. I do see that which was said would happen, did in 70AD. but I struggle with he still overturns stones today. Preterism seems so final to me and if I’m being honest (in my opinion) neglects the rest attaining to it as historical only, and hold pens it to our time as past. Is it past when it wasn’ until about five years ago God removed the stone over a heart and they hear Him for the first time call “wake up and Come forth out of darkness?” Is it past when the stone still remains in a heart not yet touched by the Revelation of Christ? But maybe I just don’t understand it.


1 John 2:8-9 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth. [9] He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

See “darkness is past”
“Is in darkness even until now” …which is it?

 

[Randy Kluth]

2 Peter 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

what do you think…they with feigned words make merchandise of you. Do you think that is making merchandise of you is making merchandise of His house of prayer?

Way back in the 70s I visited Israel. As soon as I stepped off the plane, I looked for a money changer. And later I realized I had been cheated in the exchange! I was travelling alone, and tried to exercise some trust. The Jewish People were called to be a light to the world. Money changers in Israel bring shame on them for this, though it certainly isn't the fault of the entire nation!

Yes, Judaism made merchandise of men's souls in Jesus' time. They used their hollow religion to make men followers of them and their own brand of Jewish religion.

But the only religion God is impressed with is His own. When Judaism went belly up, Jesus came to install a new religion--one that will last.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Way back in the 70s I visited Israel. As soon as I stepped off the plane, I looked for a money changer. And later I realized I had been cheated in the exchange! I was travelling alone, and tried to exercise some trust. The Jewish People were called to be a light to the world. Money changers in Israel bring shame on them for this, though it certainly isn't the fault of the entire nation!

Yes, Judaism made merchandise of men's souls in Jesus' time. They used their hollow religion to make men followers of them and their own brand of Jewish religion.

But the only religion God is impressed with is His own. When Judaism went belly up, Jesus came to install a new religion--one that will last.

Again I get what you saying and I’m not disagreeing. Can only speak from what I’ve experienced and ask how far do we go to where the word of God becomes simply no more than an history book? instead of the word of God being alive and “reaching forth to those things which are before”? A few verses that come to mind. Philippians 3:13-14 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, [14] I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

And: 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in (Christ) righteousness:

For example Romans 11:15 is it only the history of the Jews or is there instruction in righteousness in “For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

 

[Truth7t7]

You are correct. Jesus taught the 10 commandments.... To sinners that were not born again.

Not to NT saints.

You are missing my point.(Not to saints).

The abolishment of the 10 commandments is exclusive to the saints.

We Will Disagree, The 10 Commandments Apply To All Humanity

Thou shalt not kill

Thou shalt not steal

Thou shalt not commit adultery

 

[Truther]

We Will Disagree, The 10 Commandments Apply To All Humanity

Thou shalt not kill

Thou shalt not steal

Thou shalt not commit adultery

.....Except for the Spirit led saints. The 10 Commandments were and are given to sinners to teach them what is. This is why we don’t serve God in the oldness of the letter. The 10 commandments are the death ministry, delivering death to law breakers....


6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones

 

[GEN2REV]

We Will Disagree, The 10 Commandments Apply To All Humanity

.....Except for the Spirit led saints.

Saints can still sin, Truther. Just like everybody else.
Sin is the Breaking of the Commandments.
1 John 3:4

Something doesn't add up in your equation.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Again I get what you saying and I’m not disagreeing. Can only speak from what I’ve experienced and ask how far do we go to where the word of God becomes simply no more than an history book? instead of the word of God being alive and “reaching forth to those things which are before”? A few verses that come to mind. Philippians 3:13-14 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, [14] I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

And: 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in (Christ) righteousness:

For example Romans 11:15 is it only the history of the Jews or is there instruction in righteousness in “For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

I think you're answering your own question. The word of God has to have "live current" in it to be of any value. Sometimes you get the feeling--sometimes you don't. But it always needs to be a living, relevant word.

When negative, seemingly-judgmental words come forth, they don't always seem "inspired." What we must do is discern what God is saying, positive or negative, and then respond accordingly. "Be ready always, to have an answer for anyone who asks the reason for the hope that is in you. But do so with humility."

 

[GEN2REV]

Once Again We Will Disagree

The 10 Commandments Apply To All Humanity

1 John 2:1-4KJV
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

I'm not sure who you're disagreeing with. My post was actually directed to Truther. I wasn't clear enough, but I fixed it.

Confusingly, my point argued with HIS point. Not yours.

How does this info you posted here disagree with 'Saints can also sin?'

Hmmm ...

Are you also Truther? Don't lie now.

 

[Truth7t7]

I'm not sure who you're disagreeing with. My post was actually directed to Truther. I wasn't clear enough, but I fixed it.

Confusingly, my point argued with HIS point. Not yours.

How does this info you posted here disagree with 'Saints can also sin?'

Hmmm ...

Are you also Truther? Don't lie now.

Sry Gen wrong response, I removed post

I'm Truth7t7, no other aliases

 

[Waiting on him]

You guys have gotten way off topic.


John 18:20 KJV
[20] Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.

ok anyone care to answer what Jesus is referring to when He says world?

 

[Truth7t7]

.....Except for the Spirit led saints. The 10 Commandments were and are given to sinners to teach them what is. This is why we don’t serve God in the oldness of the letter. The 10 commandments are the death ministry, delivering death to law breakers....


6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones

Once Again We Will Disagree

The 10 Commandments Apply To All Humanity, the righteous saints keep and follow the commandments

1 John 2:1-4KJV
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

 

[Truth7t7]

You guys have gotten way off topic.


John 18:20 KJV
[20] Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.

ok anyone care to answer what Jesus is referring to when He says world?

Your claim is off topic, and has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of Luke 21:35 and the words (the face of the whole earth)

 

[Waiting on him]

Was the entire world in the Temple and synagogues in the first century?

 

[Waiting on him]

Your claim is off topic, and has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of Luke 21:35 and the words

You refuse to be honest, even with yourself.

 

[Truth7t7]

Was the entire world in the Temple and synagogues in the first century?

Once again, Your claim is off topic, and has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of Luke 21:35 and the words (the face of the whole earth)

 

[Truth7t7]

You refuse to be honest, even with yourself.

Off topic, answer the content of Luke 21:35 and the words (the face of the whole earth)

 

[Waiting on him]

Once again, Your claim is off topic, and has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of Luke 21:35 and the words (the face of the whole earth)

Once again, it has everything to do with it, especially given the fact it makes your argument shallow and narrow minded.