PRETRIB RAPTURE ANCIENT ROOTS

[WPM]

Of course He brings the dead saints with Him. The dead in Christ rise first. The alive remain. When He returns for the alive that remain He will bring the dead in Christ that already have new bodies with Him.

The same thing happens when He comes for the second harvest. He gathers the elect from heaven which is the Church and brings them with Him.


1 Corinthians 15 is the second harvest. This harvest occurs before the wrath of God at the last trump which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets.. This is when the angels are sent to gather the elect from heaven and earth at the end of the age.

1 Thessalonians 4 is the first harvest, when the Lord Himself comes for the Chruch at the trump of God or voice of God. This rapture happens before the great tribulation.

LOL. You have double vision. These are the same event.

• Show us one Scripture that teaches that "the feasts of God are a picture of the end times"?
• Show me New Testament Scripture that teaches that “there are two harvests? The grain harvest and the fruit harvest”?
• Where is "the grain harvest" mentioned in the New Testament?
• Where is "the fruit harvest " mentioned in the New Testament?
• Where is "the barley harvest" that you have previously invented and foisted on Scripture mentioned in the New Testament?
• Where is "the wheat harvest" that you have previously invented and foisted on Scripture mentioned in the New Testament?
• Where is all this jargon about "on the Feast of Trumpets, the fall harvest feast" in the New Testament text or in any rapture passage?
• Where in the New Testament does it say “there are two raptures – grain and fruit”?
• Where does it say anywhere in Scripture that “Noah is a picture of the Pretrib rapture” and “Lot is a picture of the Jewish harvest”?

 

[marks]

You should take time to learn about it then, because prior to the 1800's the Christian Church had no such doctrine as pre-trib nor Darby's type of Dispensationalism. And since Darby, others furthered his doctrines into a movement called Hyper-Dispensationalism which expands on his theories to an even greater degree. And those theories are not written in God's Word, so now they have become false traditions in those kinds of Churches.

Actually I spend my time learning the Bible. I didn't get my view from Darby. Believe it or not. I study the Bible. I've entertained other views, but they all end in various conflicts with Scripture.

It just depends on how you read it, and whether or not you think various part are allegory or metanomy or whatever.

As far as dispensations go, I don't see how anyone could miss that. To me it's blatant in the Bible. The point being, we will not agree on this matter, I don't think.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Not sure I understand what you mean by that.

I'd more likely call it "heaven/earth", or something. Not that heaven comes to the earth. Rather that the division is removed.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Still cannot leave the 'believing' Gentiles out of that gathering event, otherwise it would mean you reject everything written in The New Testament about the many-member body of Christ's Church.

Actually, I don't reject any of it, regardless of your accusations.

In Christ is neither Jew nor Greek, but a new man.

So in the rapture, we don't talk about whether Jews or Gentiles will be raptured, the correct answer is, Christians will be raptured. Those who are 'in Christ', that is, baptized into Christ.

When Jesus comes, and gathers His own at that time, it happens in two parts, first the chosen, the Jews, who are regathered to their land according to a great many prophecies, the second, the Gentiles gathered to be judged, with some entering into the kingdom.

Much love!

 

[marks]

True.
A good example is Ruth.
Without that book the kinsman of Rev 5 is never understood.
....oh and the biggie....the covenant Jew brought back.
That is bizarre how a bible student can not place the Jews where God places them!!!.
Just Beyond bizarre.

I think it has to do with how we read the Bible, and how willing we are to be wrong. I have no issue with being wrong. I love finding I've been mistaken about something, so long as I can verify that is true. It means I'm further along the past of understanding.

Because what I do is examine all aspects again, and make sure which is right. I don't mind changing, I love to, again, so long as I can verify. And the Bible is very good for that. We can trust it. And I've found God always leaves evidences in the text if you look.

I think what a lot of people do is that they are unwilling to let go their error, and they've seen others who will treat passages as allegory or whatever, so they do it themselves. And they find that it works, they can assign whatever meanings they need to protect their doctrines, and it becomes a jumbled tangled mess.

And then because they don't really have the foundation to rest their doctrine on, when challenged, get mean, or get duplicitous, or all the things we see that are to either good Bible discussion or good interpersonal discussion.

I find it very bizarre how some people cannot seem to see what is directly in front of them, seemingly preferring their own ideas. But then I know I fall short as well, so I have to keep perspective.

Much love!

 

[marks]

10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;

12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;
(THE ALIVE THAT REMAIN BELOW IN THE LATE SUMMER

13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

14 O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely.

I've given this some thought, and I don't think this is describing the rapture.

Personally, I think the rapture may likely occur during the Gog/Magog invasion of Israel, at the great earthquake that is mentioned in Ezekiel 38 and Revelation 7, in both places followed by a rain of fire upon the earth.

Much love!

 

[WPM]

Actually I spend my time learning the Bible. I didn't get my view from Darby. Believe it or not. I study the Bible. I've entertained other views, but they all end in various conflicts with Scripture.

It just depends on how you read it, and whether or not you think various part are allegory or metanomy or whatever.

As far as dispensations go, I don't see how anyone could miss that. To me it's blatant in the Bible. The point being, we will not agree on this matter, I don't think.

Much love!

Your beliefs were not derived objectively from the Bible. You were taught them. Pretrib is a taught doctrine. It is not in the Word of God. That is why none of you can show it when challenged. All we are getting is your opinions.

How about actually showing us any Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church followed by a 7 years trib followed by a 3rd coming, instead of always voicing personal opinions?

 

[marks]

What happens when you gauge a man's doctrine by his character? Does what he's learned make him a Spiritually fruitful man? Does he show his love for others? Or does he despise others (in the Biblical sense, these are both action words). Does he show his self control? Gentleness? Something to think about!

Something I've seen for many many years, the nicer, happier Christians seem to mostly be pre-trib. Interesting, isn't it?

Much love!

 

[marks]

You make that above claim, yet you post the very Scripture that supports the saved Gentiles inhabiting the inheritances with Israel in the holy land in the future???

Two statements are made, but the fact that they appear side by side doesn't mean they are connected.

2) Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3) For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

Which is the part that says the Gentiles will inhabit the cities?

They will inherit the gentiles, and they will make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

It does not say, "make the desolate cities to be inhabited by the gentiles".

I do see how you are reading it and coming to that conclusion, and let's say that's the correct reading. As I'm looking at it more, I begin to agree with you more that this is maybe how it should be understood.

That doesn't change that the land grants will be to the Israelites and not to the gentiles. Gentiles may be living with them, but the land is divvied up to the 12 tribes.

And it would not mean that gentiles are gathered in Matthew 24:31. That is a fully separate matter.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Does that mean you also... deny what Apostle Paul declared below in Galatians 3?

Do I deny Scripture? Moving on . . .

 

[marks]

You referenced a verse saying that unless those days be shorten no flesh would be saved, but for the Elect sake those days will be shortened

If the Elect is the Christian church, then why shorten the days?

But if the Elect is the Chosen Nation, there is every reason to shorten the days.

Kill a Christian, they just go to be with Jesus. Kill an unsaved Jew, and they do not. But the promise is that all surviving Jews will be rescued from death when He returns, and that they will come to faith and be saved. So it's very important to end the killing before they are all dead.

Much love!

 

[The Light]

I've given this some thought, and I don't think this is describing the rapture.

Personally, I think the rapture may likely occur during the Gog/Magog invasion of Israel, at the great earthquake that is mentioned in Ezekiel 38 and Revelation 7, in both places followed by a rain of fire upon the earth.

Much love!

I am in for a minute and then gone so I hope to remember to look at this when I return.

Thanks

 

[The Light]

Your beliefs were not derived objectively from the Bible. You were taught them. Pretrib is a taught doctrine. It is not in the Word of God. That is why none of you can show it when challenged.

LOL. Deny, Deny, Deny.

Once it is realized there are two folds as the Word says in John 10 all your arguments are up in smoke.

All we are getting is your opinions.
How about actually showing us any Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church followed by a 7 years trib followed by a 3rd coming, instead of always voicing personal opinions?

Please show a scripture, where Jesus changes water into wine, feeds 5 thousand, rebukes Peter, claims to be the son of God and is raised from the dead.

 

[The Light]

If the Elect is the Christian church, then why shorten the days?

But if the Elect is the Chosen Nation, there is every reason to shorten the days.

Kill a Christian, they just go to be with Jesus. Kill an unsaved Jew, and they do not. But the promise is that all surviving Jews will be rescued from death when He returns, and that they will come to faith and be saved. So it's very important to end the killing before they are all dead.

Much love!

The days are shortened for the elect who in this case are the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth. The Church will already be in heaven, and those in Israel that flee will be in a place of protection.

It is the Jews around world that are being killed. The days are cut short of none would be raptured alive in the harvest at the 6th seal.

 

[marks]

The days are shortened for the elect who in this case are the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth. The Church will already be in heaven, and those in Israel that flee will be in a place of protection.

It is the Jews around world that are being killed.

Jesus said that if the days were not cut short, no flesh would survive. Everyone would be dead. But for the sake of the chosen, they have been cut short.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You are just saying that because you've probably been raised in a pre-trib church, or you are determined to 'yourself' (i.e., lie to yourself), that it is written, when it is not. It is very easy to lie to oneself if they want to believe a lie strongly enough.

We can all bandy that about, but to what end?

You haven't the first clue about me or my approach to the Bible, and to truth, but you feel free to drag me through the mud.

"You are just lying to yourself".

Thank you for that. The thing is, you words reveal much more about you than they do me. In fact, they don't reveal me at all. You've got me all wrong. But they do reveal you.

Rather than continue in a sharing of ideas and Scripture, you choose to say these things. Ask yourself, to what purpose?

Much love!

 

[WPM]

LOL. Deny, Deny, Deny.

Once it is realized there are two folds as the Word says in John 10 all your arguments are up in smoke.


Please show a scripture, where Jesus changes water into wine, feeds 5 thousand, rebukes Peter, claims to be the son of God and is raised from the dead.

You cannot answer any of the questions I asked you. Why? You foist them on Scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Still waiting for a verse pointing to a postrib rapture.
Should be easy.
Hello????

Hello???? Are these passages in your Bible or not?

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

When the rapture occurs, the vengeance and wrath of Christ will occur at the same time, which pre-tribs deny.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Notice that on the same day Jesus comes "to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe", Jesus will take "vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ". Only extreme doctrinal bias could prevent someone from recognizing that the day Jesus comes "to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe" is the same day that His saints are caught up to meet Him after which they "will always be with the Lord" (1 Thess 4:17).

This ridiculous idea that He will come and then suddenly millions of Christians will disappear with unbelievers looking on and wondering what happened while continuing to live on the earth for 7 more years is complete folly that comes from man's imagination and not from scripture. No. When the rapture happens, then Jesus will taken vengeance on all His enemies and destroy them. He is not going to inexplicably turn around and go back to heaven and then come back 7 years later. LOL! That is utter nonsense and not taught in scripture anywhere. Why would He do that? There would be no reason for it. Once He descends from heaven He's going to take care of business and not mess around. He's going to glorify His people and destroy His enemies. These 7 (or however many) year tribulation following the rapture nonsense is not taught anywhere in scripture. No one can show any scripture showing a time of tribulation occurring after the rapture occurs. It can't be done.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL. Deny, Deny, Deny.

Once it is realized there are two folds as the Word says in John 10 all your arguments are up in smoke.

Your denial that the other fold refers to Gentile believers is a big joke. You have to be completely lacking in discernment to not be able to discern that the sheep fold Jesus was initially talking about in John 10 were Jews and the other sheep are Gentiles. The two folds being made "one fold" should make any Christian immediately think of how Jesus brought Jew and Gentile believers together as "one new man" and "one body" (Ephesians 2:11-22).