PRETRIB RAPTURE ANCIENT ROOTS
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Davy
Well-Known Member
Anyone can make that false claim that the pre-trib rapture theory goes back in history farther than the 1800's. It does not. Even pre-trib scholars have admitted that it only began in the 1800's.
They quote pseudo-Ephraim as teaching it when a look at his actual words isn't pointing to a pre-trib rapture at all. One must remember, that many on the pre-trib rapture theory so strongly want... it to be true, that any little suggestion that a passage is speaking about it, they try to turn into full-blown proof that pre-trib is true, when it is not. Anyone can dupe themselves when they believe in something very strongly, when it may not be true at all.
The BIGGEST PROOF that the pre-trib rapture idea is false is by measuring it per God's written Word.
In Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, Lord Jesus Christ revealed that His future coming and gathering of His saints will be AFTER... the tribulation. It is written as a DIRECT STATEMENT.
That means ANY... sort of argument presented by those on man's pre-trib rapture theory falls flat, simply because Lord Jesus revealed His coming to gather His Church is AFTER the tribulation. The pre-trib theory instead falsely claims Jesus comes to rapture His Church PRIOR to the tribulation; Jesus said just the opposite.
Also, the Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 verses directly parallel what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 about Christ's coming to gather His Church.
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The nation of Israel is not a large enough for over a billion Christians.
The gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 is referring to the final gathering of the children of Israel, the Jews, out of the nations to the land of Israel. Fulfilling a promise that God made in Deuteronomy 30:1-6.
1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Davy
Well-Known Member
That's an irrelevant statement totally away from the pre-trib rapture subject.
Christ's declaring the gathering of His saints in His Olivet discourse is a DIRECT PARALLEL TO 1 THESSALONIANS 4 by Apostle Paul. The Apostle Paul obviously got that from Lord Jesus Himself.
Yet those on mans FALSE pre-trib rapture theory LIE, and try to claim that 1 Thessalonians 4 is about a pre-trib rapture!
Therefore, since 1 Thessalonians 4 is about CHRIST'S CHURCH, and it parallels what Jesus taught about His future coming and gathering of His saints in Matthew 24 and Mark 13, that MEANS JESUS WAS POINTING TO HIS CHURCH in His Olivet discourse.
(I already know you are on man's false pre-trib rapture theory Douggg, so no use in you still trying to hide it here.)
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Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
In Matthew 24:31, Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect.
Differently, in 1Thessalonians4:15-18, it is Jesus Himself, not His angels, who will resurrect the dead and translate the living in Christ.
So Matthew 24:31 is not referring to resurrection/rapture of 1Thessalonians4:15-18
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Are you looking for angels to rapture you, or Jesus ?
Big Boy Johnson
Well-Known Member
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
This is an argument from silence, which is no argument at all. Nowhere does 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 say that it's only Jesus Himself gathering His church, which are the elect (Romans 8:33) and not angels doing the gathering. This is not the way to interpret scripture. You would only have a point if 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 explicitly stated that Jesus alone is dong the gathering there and not the angels, but it does not say that. Not all passages relating to an event contain all the same details. Do you understand that?
Do you believe that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19:11-21 refer to the same event? If so, how do you come to that conclusion when Revelation 19:11-21 makes no reference to angels gathering the elect?
Big Boy Johnson
Well-Known Member
He was speaking of tribulation saints, not the saints taken in the rapture which will happen pre-wrath
Since you believe you will be going thru the Great Tribulation, get ready to get your head cut off!
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Show me where scripture teaches about such a concept as "tribulation saints". You don't think "tribulation saints" will be in the church, right? If so, where is such a thing ever taught in scripture?He was speaking of tribulation saints, not the saints taken in the rapture which will happen pre-wrath
Since you believe you will be going thru the Great Tribulation, get ready to get your head cut off!
Big Boy Johnson
Well-Known Member
First show me where God's Word says after the rapture nobody can get born again anymore.
In my post #7, I did not mention the word gathering is in 1Thessalonians 4:15-18. In 1Thessalonians 4:15-18, Jesus resurrects the dead in Christ and translates the living in Christ.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You're not addressing what I said. Do you believe that people who are saved and born again during the tribulation, which you call "tribulation saints", become part of the body of Christ (the church)?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Do you not acknowledge that there is a gathering when 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 occurs?
2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
Do you not equate "our gathering together unto him" when the Lord comes that Paul referenced with meeting Him in the air when He comes, as Paul wrote about in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18?
Yes, I agree that 2Thessalonians 2:1 is referring to the resurrection/rapture event of 1Thessalonians 4:15-18.
Do you acknowledge that the resurrection/rapture event is in 1Thessalonians 5:9-11, verse 10 ?
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
@Spiritual Israelite
Are you expecting angels to translate/change your body from corruptible to incorruptible and take you to heaven ?
Are you expecting angels to translate/change your body from corruptible to incorruptible and take you to heaven ?
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
You know your in trouble when someone has to show a video to explain that which is not in the Holy Scriptures.
Very easy to read and believe the words of Christ and the Apostles = written for children
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
You cling to a lie.
Of course you will not investigate the obvious.
Truth that is hidden in plain sight disgusts you.
Your formula for your doctrine GUARANTEES ERROR, BECAUSE IT IS YOUR DOCTRINE THAT PROHIBITS INVESTIGATION.
Watchtower deceivers are exactly the same.
They are forbidden as you are, to investigate.
I have taken the time to learn your doctrine. I know it even better than you do and I can present it better than you do or anybody on this forum. I know your doctrine frontwards and backwards.
You on the other hand.
, do not know the pre-tribulation RAPTURE
doctrine.
All you know is you don't like it.
You don't want to investigate it, and anybody that takes the time to be a Bible hound, and investigate it, is classified by you as Satan,...
So what you are now into is , without a doubt, invincible ignorance.
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