Proof that Jesus is God

[ReChoired]

Quoted From Ps. 45
In addition to these admissions by trinitarian translators concerning Heb. 1:8, we need to look back at the Old Testament Hebrew scripture (Ps. 45:6) that Paul was quoting when he wrote Heb. 1:8.

The RSV renders Ps. 45:6 as “Your Divine throne” and a footnote provides this alternate
reading: “Or ‘your throne is a throne of God.’”

The NRSV says in a footnote: “Or ‘your throne is a throne of God.’”

The NEB says: “Your throne is like God’s throne.”

The Holy Scriptures (JPS version) says: “Thy throne given of God.”

The Bible in Living English (Byington) says: “God is your throne.”

New International Reader’s Version (NIRV): “Your throne is the very throne of God.”

The Good News Bible (GNB), a very trinitarian paraphrase Bible, renders it: “The kingdom
that God has given you will last forever and ever.”

The REB has: “God has enthroned you for all eternity.”

The NJB gives us: “your throne is from God.”

Leeser - “Thy throne, given of God, endureth for ever”

We also see the following statement by respected trinitarian scholars in a footnote for this passage:
“45:6 O God. Possibly the king’s throne is called God’s throne because he is God’s appointed regent. But it is also possible that the king himself is addressed as ‘god.’” - Ps. 45:6 f.n. in the NIV Study Bible (1985).

In addition to the above renderings by many respected translators (most of whom are trinitarian), we have the statement by perhaps the greatest scholar of Biblical Hebrew of all time, H. F. W. Gesenius. In his famous and highly respected Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Gesenius renders Ps. 45:6, “thy throne shall be a divine throne.”

Just the admission by so many trinitarian translators (above) that Heb. 1:8 may be honestly translated in a non-trinitarian manner makes any insistence by other trinitarians that this scripture is acceptable evidence for a trinity doctrine completely invalid!

Their "admission" is biased to their underlying theology. It has to read that way for them, for "trinitarianism" or "unitarianism", thus arianism, to be true. Yet, the actual translation or original, cannot read that way, for the scripture teaches none of those things, but it does teach the eternal Heavenly Trio, which those other theologies cannot abide.

The 'Bibles' (counterfeits) you have cited (all after 1881, when Westcott and Hort brought in counterfeit texts/mss/codice) are primarily based in Aleph (Sinaticus) and B (Vaticanus) or even A (Alexandrinus), corrupt mss, that are inherently arian in nature. As I said before, "trinitarianism" and "unitariansim" share that same base of arianism, of 'singular principality'. The translation committees all have had Jesuits on their boards, whether of the UBS, or Novum Testamentum Graece 28th [Eberhard Nestle's / Kurt Aland's, etc] (aka N/A) , which is why the NWT of the WTS, follows the Aleph and B texts also (demonstrable upon request).

This is why I ask you (or anyone) for:

"Finally, looking at this historically (meaning across time), can you cite one Jewish commentator (such as a Rabbi, the Talmud, Mishna, etc) or ECF (so called Early church fathers, I'll even accept an Arian 'father'), Lectionary, etc before 1700 that renders the passage as "God is your throne"?, rather than "thy throne O God is forever and ever"?"

 

[ReChoired]

"the 'theos [h]en o logos' (John 1:1c)"
How even a beginner NT Greek student could mistake ἦν as [h]en is strange indeed.
Examining the Trinity

I am apparently dealing with someone unfamiliar with koine Greek translation/transliteration into English letters. It is simple, allow me to show you:

ἥν - Wiktionary

Ancient Greek
Pronunciation

IPA(key): /hɛ̌ːn/ → /in/ → /in/

Pronoun

ἥν • (hḗn)

1. accusative singular feminine of ὅς (hós)

Adjective

ἥν • (hḗn)

1. accusative singular feminine of ὅς (hós)

Thus the "[h]" as I gave in transliteration, represents a sound, not a spelling, and thus is in brackets for that purpose. This is commonly utilized:

[1] - "KE THEOS HEN O LOGOS" - Tritunggal, berapa Tuhan orang Kristen ?

[2] - "«In principio era il Verbo (en archè hen o logos)" - Il Logos, fra pensiero greco e cristiano - Cortile dei Gentili

[3] - commonly utilized - "hen o logos" - Google Search

You are simply mistaken, and do not understand transliteration of koine Greek to English practices.

 

[ReChoired]

... The NEB says: “Your throne is like God’s throne.” ...

Why do you allow this butchery of the Hebrew in the first portion of Psalms 45:6 (7 depending), but not in the second portion?

Notice, if you want:

"God is your throne ...", then why do you not translate it as "Kingdom is your scepter" in the latter part, as it uses the same structure in Hebrew?

Psa 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
Psa 45:7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Psa 45:7 (HOT) כסאך אלהים עולם ועד שׁבט מישׁר שׁבט מלכותך׃
Psa 45:8 (HOT) אהבת צדק ותשׂנא רשׁע על־כן משׁחך אלהים אלהיך שׁמן שׂשׂון מחבריך׃

Psa 45:7 כסאךH3678 אלהיםH430 עולםH5769 ועדH5703 שׁבטH7626 מישׁרH4334 שׁבטH7626 מלכותך׃H4438
Psa 45:8 אהבתH157 צדקH6664 ותשׂנאH8130 רשׁעH7562 עלH5921 כןH3651 משׁחךH4886 אלהיםH430 אלהיךH430 שׁמןH8081 שׂשׂוןH8342 מחבריך׃H2270

First of all, can you show me from the Hebrew Masoretic text where the words "is", "like" and the second word "throne" is? I only read one word "throne" in Hebrew in vs 7, being "כסאך", which appears only once, not twice.

It literally reads, "Your throne, God, forever ... [etc]". There is no "is", "like" or second word "throne".

Also, really, the NEB? You mean this Bible:

NEB:

1 Sam 13:1 NEB - Saul was fifty years old when he became king, and he reigned over Israel for twenty-two years.

Acts 13:21 NEB - Then they asked for a king, and God gave them Saul the son of Kish, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, who reigned for forty years ...

Contradiction. 22. 40. No Hebrew for 50.

New English Bible - "... The New English Bible expresses no denominational or doctrinal viewpoint. It is not a revision of any previous version, but a completely new rendering, which seeks to achieve [1] clarity, [2] dignity, and in many places [3] true poetry. ..."

Judges 1:14 NEB - When she came to him, he incited her to ask her father for a piece of land. As she sat on the ass, she broke wind, and Caleb said, 'What did you mean by that?

There you have it folks:

[1] clarity
[2] dignity
[3] true poetry

The parallel is also repeated in the same manner in Joshua 15:18 NEB.

Yeah the NEB is a monumental masterpiece of modern scholasticism. It's translational fortitude unparalleled.

Mal_2:12 The LORD will cut off the man that doeth this, the master and the scholar, out of the tabernacles of Jacob, and him that offereth an offering unto the LORD of hosts.

 

[ReChoired]

The RSV renders Ps. 45:6 as “Your Divine throne” and a footnote provides this alternate
reading: “Or ‘your throne is a throne of God.’”

Why didn't you cite all of it?

"Psalm 45:6-8

Revised Standard Version

6 Your divine throne [a] endures for ever and ever.
Your royal scepter is a scepter of equity;
7 you love righteousness and hate wickedness.
Therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness above your fellows;
8 your robes are all fragrant with myrrh and aloes and cassia.
From ivory palaces stringed instruments make you glad;

Read full chapter
Footnotes

1. Psalm 45:6 Or Your throne is a throne of God, or Thy throne, O God" - Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 45:6-8 - Revised Standard Version

Neither of which means or can be translated to "God is your throne". Look at the context of vs 7. Also the word "divine" is not in Hebrew, it says "Elohiym" (אלהים).

If you really want to get into the RSV and its perversion of the true text we can. It follows Aleph's and B's errors.

 

[Curtis]

1 Corinthians 15 (WEB):
24) Then the end comes, when he will deliver up the Kingdom to God, even the Father; when he will have abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25) For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26) The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
27) For, “He put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when he says, “All things are put in subjection”, it is evident that he is excepted who subjected all things to him.
28) When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.

Even at the end of the Jesus' 1,000 year reign, and going forward into eternity, Jesus will still be a subject/servant of God.

That’s right, He chose to maintain His subjection to the Father, so what?

He’s still THE MIGHTY GOD, the EVERLASTING FATHER, said Isaiah, His title is EMMANUEL, which means God with us.

You believe the Watchtower and Kingdom Hall, and I’ll believe the entirety of the scriptures- the real scriptures, not the NWT.

 

[ReChoired]

Now that we have looked at Psalms 45:6-7 (7-8 depending), in regards Hebrews 1:8-9, why not pretend to at least address Hebrews 1:10-12, in the same context, of Psalms 102:12,25-27?

 

[ReChoired]

If we look at some respected trinitarian authorities, we see a preference for the “God is thy throne” rendering.

Let me get this straight from your mouth. You are citing "trinitarian authorties" on a specific part of a single verse, while rejecting their entire theology and position on the whole of scripture? You are agreeing with a "trinitarian" when it suits your purpose for a part of a single verse, but reject their entire expertise and "authority" in scholastic matters when it comes to the multiplicity of Persons (Father, Son and Holy Ghost), and in all the places in scriptures where they also cite that Jesus is Deity (God)? Did I read you right?

 

[kcnalp]

It is amazing how frequently trinitarians refer to this figurative prologue that does not even mention Jesus while ignoring Jesus explicitly saying his Father is the true God @ John 17:3.

Figurative? Then Who is the Word that was God and became flesh?

John 1:1-4 (NKJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

Hint: It was Jesus!

 

[kcnalp]

No assumption. It’s simply a fact that the trinity is not in the Bible.

So, Who isn't God? The Father? Son? Holy Spirit?

 

[keithr]

No. This is the issue at hand, for you are utilizing the phrase "only begotten" incorrectly, and by this I mean using an incorrect definition/understanding. The words "only begotten" translate from the koine Greek monogene (μονογενη; John 3:16), and it means "only one of the same nature (genes)", and has nothing to do with time, but deals with nature only. The very words have no definition which includes time as an element inherently.

That is how understand it too! From the Online Bible's Greek Lexicon:

1) single of its kind, only

1a) used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
1b) used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God​

Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries says:

only born, that is, sole: - only (begotten, child).​

The Father has always been "the Father", eternally, everlastingly.

Agreed.

The Son has always been "the Son", eternally, everlastingly.

With that I disagree. I have not found any Scripture to support that idea. If Jesus was begotten by God then God had to exist first.

 

[soul man]

The false teaching that Jesus was and is a created being since the beginning of creation, is a paganist and idolatrous deism. If in fact, Jesus the Son of God was created by God, then there is at least one other god in heaven like God and with God. And if God created 1 other god like Himself but not Himself, then He likely has created many other gods, and shall do so again.

In the beginning was the word and the word was God and the word became flesh (Jesus). Ends any argument about what people believe about scripture. Unless of coarse they decide to stick with the lessor Knowledge of not knowing and understanding the written word. Thank God for the word - as you learn the word you realize how important it was for God to give to us, humanity, absolutes for understanding the things of God. Good thread.

 

[NayborBear]

Romans 8:16-17 (WEB): The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God; and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ; if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him.

It is so hard in describing in a way that can do God, and the Kingdom of God in an adequate word picture, that even comes close in rendering the unconditional love between the Father and those called by His NAME, that it renders one's heart into a mass fear, shock and awe (electrifying) in such reverence? That those of us in flesh bodies just "can't HANDLE" the JOLT that the full on "Fruit of the SPIRIT" puts ON, and IN, and THROUGH these "Temples of flesh."
Even Moses when he came down from being in God's presence, way back THEN?
Scared the people so much he had to put a scarf over his face before he could talk to them!

Because it takes that connection between that which is printed and the eyes of the soul, and the ears of the Spirit (where and when the breath of life (rauch) connects WITH the Father and Son's HOLY (set aside for God's purposes) SPIRIT (RAUCH).

Even Jesus Hasn't seen the INVISIBLE GOD! NO ONE HAS!
Even Adam couldn't see the invisible God!
Because the invisible God's ATTRIBUTES covers so much MORE then those who are called to be in covenant WITH Jehovah by means of the "Sheep Gate" which IS Jesus Christ!

 

[keithr]

Context:
...
Isa 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

Isaiah 48:16 reveals Three Persons/Beings in context.

"... the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me."

"the Lord GOD" is the Person/Being of the Father in this verse.

"Spirit" is the Person/Being of the Holy Ghost/Spirit of "the Lord GOD" (the Father) in this verse.

"me" is the Person/Being of the Son of "the Lord GOD" in this verse, who is also identified in vss 12-13, as "I am ... the first and also the last", who hath "laid the foundation of the earth ... spanned the heavens", even "the LORD of hosts" in vs 2 (for the Son is the Captain over the armies of His Father, the Son is Michael archangel, being the highest messenger who is like unto God His Father).

Therefore according to the context, "The Lord GOD", and his "Spirit" had sent "the LORD of Hosts".

That's not how I read it (are you surprised? ). Taking the WEB translation, which I think has better punctuation:

[God, Yahweh, is speaking (or Jesus speaking, as Yahweh's spokesperson)]
15) I, even I, have spoken; yes, I have called him. I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.

[Referring to Yahweh having called Cyrus to execute His pleasure on the Chaldaeans.]​

[Then Isaiah starts speaking, quoting Yahweh]
16) “Come near to me and hear this: “From the beginning I have not spoken in secret; from the time that it happened, I was there.” Now the Lord Yahweh has sent me, with his Spirit.
17) Yahweh, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel says: “I am Yahweh your God, who teaches you to profit, who leads you by the way that you should go.

So the quoting of Yahweh speaking ends in verse 16 after "I was there". The "Now the Lord Yahweh has sent me, with his spirit" is the prophet Isaiah speaking, saying that, to paraphrase, "Yahweh spoke from the beginning, foretelling what would take place, and now Yahweh has sent me, with His spirit", to then speak the words given him from Yahweh, verse 17, etc.. The "sent me, with his spirit" is a similar meaning to
Zecariah 7:12 - "... the words which Yahweh of Armies had sent by his Spirit by the former prophets", or Isaiah 61:1 -"The Lord Yahweh’s Spirit is on me; because Yahweh has anointed me to preach good news to the humble". Yahweh's spirit being with/on people is just Yahweh doing things; He is a spirit, and His spirit with/on people is Him in action - it is not a seperate individual being, another spirit being; it is Yahweh.

 

[Wrangler]

Figurative? Then Who is the Word that was God and became flesh?

A word is not a who. That is how you know it is figurative. All prophets speak the word of God. The Word (of God) is not a who but a what. The same Greek words are used in John 6:60 that is translated ‘this’ word not ‘who’ word.

Jesus is the prophet Moses wrote about who God would put his words in a man among the people he choose for that purpose. See Deutoronomy 18:15-18.

Another common misconception is John 1 pertains to a different beginning than the other 3 Gospels, the beginning of Christ’s ministry, ending in a redeemed state where Jesus stands as the sole member of this re-creation.

 

[kcnalp]

A word is not a who.

"Him" and "He" is not a Who? Oh please!

John 1:1-4 (NKJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

 

[soul man]

What the written is like the verse given in the thread - it proves other scripture that is written to us to know. The written word will always confirm it self by other scripture or scriptures. Reading and knowing how scripture is put together keeps the unrenewed mind from coming up with it's own concepts of; how God does things - why he did that - and did he have a purpose in creating all things created with the emphasis placed on Adam or humanity coming into being. You cannot say enough about what is written it is love love letter so to say for understanding simplicity. Such as when it is written about the power of God, you can read what is written and know that God can do anything but has chosen to do a very specific thing and a very specific way of bringing it about. That is simplicity in knowledge - the knowing of scripture which only leads to him and pertains to all life - there is no other life but Christ' who is the life of God, nature, Spirit, truth, word, hope, life, and so on. The gospel - the certified gospel of Paul bears out all God is to the believer by the word in them - Christ'.

So when a sinner believes - they get Christ' the word in them. That word is a person and the way that God choose. That is how God has chosen to express himself to humanity, we call it Trinity but it is God choosing the way of expression for life and reaching humanity for himself for a very specific reason.

 

[Cooper]

A word is not a who. That is how you know it is figurative. All prophets speak the word of God. The Word (of God) is not a who but a what. The same Greek words are used in John 6:60 that is translated ‘this’ word not ‘who’ word.

Jesus is the prophet Moses wrote about who God would put his words in a man among the people he choose for that purpose. See Deutoronomy 18:15-18.

Another common misconception is John 1 pertains to a different beginning than the other 3 Gospels, the beginning of Christ’s ministry, ending in a redeemed state where Jesus stands as the sole member of this re-creation.

Much as I dislike the teaching of the JW's I was inspired to write this after reading their web site.

A personal title. “The Word” appears in the Bible as a title for Jesus Christ, both as a spirit in heaven (God is Spirit) and as a human on earth. Consider this:

The Word lived before all other creation. “In the beginning was the Word . . . This one was in the beginning with God.” (John 1:1, 2) Jesus is before all other things.”—Colossians 1:13-15, 17.

The Word (God) came to earth as a human. “The Word became flesh and resided among us.” (John 1:14)

Christ Jesus (the Word) “emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human.”—Philippians 2:5-7.

The Word rules as a king. The Bible states that on the head of the Word of God are “many royal headbands.” (Revelation 19:12, 13; footnote) The Word is also named “King of kings and Lord of lords.” (Revelation 19:16) Jesus is called “the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords.”—1 Timothy 6:14, 15.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/word-of-god/
.

 

[NayborBear]

The government OF God (which Christ bears on His shoulders. which also includes the Abrahamic covenant) consists of, without meaning any disrespect, offices! (so to speak) WITH PARAMETERS to guide! As LONG as one: STAYS WITHIN THE LINES!

 

[keithr]

No, it shouldn't because the context of Hebrews 1:8 also includes Hebrews 1:9-12:
...
(Paul) Hebrews 1:8-9 is specifically citing Psalms 45:6-7, when after Paul writes, "he saith", for "he saith" in that Psalm:

Psa 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
Psa 45:7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Yes, I know that. But I still think that it should be 'god' rather than 'God', in Psalm 45 too. The translators choose whether or not to capitalise a word, and the Hebrew word elohim is translated as "god" 244 times in the Bible and so could/should be here. The Psalm is addressed to "the king" (verse 1), not to Yahweh, so it should be lowercase g. Interpreted as a messianic Psalm it should also be "Thy throne, O god" (referring to the Messiah), and "therefore God, thy God" is correctly capitalised because it is referring to Yahweh.

Thus the Person/Being of the Holy Ghost, who inspired Paul (writer of Hebrews), told Paul to directly cite Psalms 45:6-7, and Psalms 102:12,25-27 in reference to the Father speaking about and to the Son. The Son is indeed identified as "O LORD", even as the Father is another Person/Being called "LORD".

It was probably Jesus that revealed to Paul his understanding that these verses could be applied prophetically to Jesus. Psalm 45 was written to the king of Israel, Psalm 102 was a prayer to Yahweh. Just as the king was not Jesus, so Yahweh was not Jesus, and vice versa, and so it would be wrong to say that these verses prove that Jesus is Yahweh.

 

[NayborBear]

Ya see? When one prays to the Spirit of God, (creator of all things including earth and heaven ages, as HE reigns from everlasting TO everlasting) In Jesus' NAME?
That starts the petitioners request in something that may be accurately described as an Heavenly "trickle down" effect THROUGH these other "offices" OF THE GOVERNMENT of GOD!
Might even call these "counsels of God AND Father."(GOVERNMENT)

So let's say (physically speaking), the petitioner asks for a new car.
By the time it gets TO the petitioner? It may be new car, or nothing at all.

Same same with Spiritual blessings and Spiritual Gifts!

This is why this verse is so important!
1 Peter 2:
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
(Notice....Peter doesn't say "Father?....cuz the Father has "cut off" Spiritual Israel/Judah)
(THIS is what keeps the "grafting growing")

These "spiritual sacrifices" made acceptable to God, by Jesus?"
Are made when the believer/petitioner allows "the scourge"
Isaiah 28:15
Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

When THIS takes place:
Isaiah 28:18
And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.