Prophecy that is Based on the Literal, Plain Word of God

[Arthur81]

My view of prophecy comes from the plain, literal and explicit words of scripture; not fanciful ideas read into the figurative passages. I can't accept teaching that contradicts the following clear passages.

"No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day. It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me." (John 6:44-45 NRSV)

"The one who rejects me and does not receive my word has a judge; on the last day the word that I have spoken will serve as judge, for I have not spoken on my own, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment about what to say and what to speak." (John 12:48-49 NRSV)

“But about that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. For as the days of Noah were, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark, and they knew nothing until the flood came and swept them all away, so too will be the coming of the Son of Man." (Matt 24:36-39 NRSV)

"Do not be astonished at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and will come out—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." (John 5:28-29 NRSV) *Resurrection of both the good and the evil in the same hour

"I have a hope in God—a hope that they themselves also accept—that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous." (Acts 24:15 NRSV) *A resurrection singular, one resurrection

"When he had said this, as they were watching, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. While he was going and they were gazing up toward heaven, suddenly two men in white robes stood by them. They said, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking up toward heaven? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.'” (Acts 1:9-11 NRSV)

“Fellow Israelites, I may say to you confidently of our ancestor David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Since he was a prophet, he knew that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would put one of his descendants on his throne. Foreseeing this, David spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, saying, ‘He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh experience corruption.’ This Jesus God raised up, and of that all of us are witnesses. Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you both see and hear. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”’ (Acts 2:29-35 NRSV) *David was king over the OT assembly of God in the one nation, Israel; Jesus is king over the NT assembly of God over the entire globe, not just one nation.

"...I charge you to keep the commandment without spot or blame until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ, which he will bring about at the right time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords. It is he alone who has immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see; to him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen. (1Tim 6:13-16 NRSV) *It reads "he who is", present tense! Jesus is King and reigns now

"...through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers made subject to him. (1Pet 3:21b -22 NRSV)

"For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is plain that this does not include the one who put all things in subjection under him." (1Cor 15:25-27 NRSV) *Jesus is reigning now, from the throne in heaven

"He has abolished the law with its commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new humanity in place of the two, thus making peace, and might reconcile both groups to God in one body through the cross, thus putting to death that hostility through it." (Eph 2:15-16 NRSV) *There is ONE people of God, NOT two

"But if some of the branches(Physical Jews) were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot(Elect Gentiles), were grafted in their place to share the richness/rich root (Jesus the Christ) of the olive tree(God's people), do not boast over the branches(Physical Jews). If you do boast, remember it is not you that support the root(Christ), but the root(Christ) that supports you. You will say, “Branches(Physical Jews) were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches(Physical Jews), neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. And even the others(Physical Jews), if they do not persist in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you have been cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree(Gentiles), and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree(God's people), how much more will these natural branches(Elect Jews) be grafted back into their own olive tree(God's people). Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel(Physical Jews), until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel(elect Jews & elect Gentiles) will be saved; as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” (Rom 11:17-27 RSV)

"For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. Peace and mercy be upon all who walk by this rule, upon the Israel of God." (Gal 6:15-16 RSV)

"Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the scriptures: ‘The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; this was the Lord’s doing, and it is amazing in our eyes’? Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people that produces the fruits of the kingdom." (Matt 21:42-43 NRSV) *As in the previous passage, the church, New Covenant believers continue as God's Israel since the 1st century. The temple and the Jewish religion ended in 70 AD

"Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem... But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such as these to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:21, 23-24 NRSV)

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord! Therefore comfort and encourage one another with these words [concerning our reunion with believers who have died]." (1 Thess. 4:16-18 Amplified Bible/2015) *This entire chapter is addressed to and about Christians, the wicked are not mentioned. There is nothing whatsoever here about a 7-year tribulation! The word "rapture" simply means caught up or snatched away.

Nowhere in scripture is a "second resurrection" mentioned. The "first resurrection" in Rev. 20:5-6 is contrasted with the "second death" in Rev. 20:14, not a "second resurrection". It is the "souls of those" on the thrones in Rev. 20:4, NOT bodies, and they are those who had been "beheaded", not all believers, Rev. 20:4.

There is no plain reference to a rapture that is followed by a 7-year tribulation, a revived Roman Empire, nor a 3rd Temple in the Bible. There is no gap between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel in scripture. These things are 'read into' the figurative symbolic passages of the Bible.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Those thar choose to reject the rapture will be left behind=their very poor choice!!

 

[Randy Kluth]

until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel(elect Jews & elect Gentiles) will be saved

You make some good points except here it seems you're jumping to a conclusion. That is, it isn't being "explicitly said." The reference to "all Israel" seems to imply "all those who belong to Israel," instead of to both Jews and Gentiles. What you're doing is turning the word "Israel" into a metaphor for the Church, aka Replacement Theology.

And that's fine, if you belong to that school of interpretation. But you are basing this on your sense of "logical inference," as opposed to your claim you base your beliefs on "explicit Scriptures." The use of "Israel" as a metaphor is *not* here being taught! But there are a lot of good Scriptures to consider here. It's just that they appear to be selected to prove Covenant Theology or Amillennialism?

 

[Arthur81]

Following Paul's thoughts I believe "all Israel" means the church, elect Jew and elect Gentile for the following reasons. The passage is discussing Jew and Gentile together in one olive tree and the olive tree represents the people of God. Jews the natural branches, Gentiles the wild branches. The original tree was all elect Jews and now the one tree is both Jew and Gentile, one church, all Israel.

"But it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his descendants; but 'Through Isaac shall your descendants be named.” (Rom 9:6-7 RSV)

"And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved;" (Rom 9:27 RSV)

"So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace." (Rom 11:5 RSV)

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Gal 3:28 RSV) *Paul is speaking of salvation here, and salvation in Rom. 11:26 as well.

"For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. Peace and mercy be upon all who walk by this rule, upon the Israel of God." (Gal 6:15-16 RSV)
"Circumcision is nothing; uncircumcision is nothing; the only thing that counts is new creation! All who take this principle for their guide, peace and mercy be upon them, the Israel of God!" (Gal 6:15-16 REB) *Those of the new creation, Jew and Gentile, are the Israel of God continued, not replaced, the one olive tree God's people.

The Apostle Peter gives labels to the church that were labels given to Israel in the OT -

"But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people, that you may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were no people but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy but now you have received mercy." (1Pet 2:9-10 RSV) *Ex. 19:6; Dt. 7:6; Isa. 61:6

That "all Israel" means Jew and Gentile in the one church, was taught by John Calvin & Martin Luther, so I am not out on a limb alone in this. The Lutheran, Paul E. Kretzmann gives good commentary on this -

"There is here no basis for the millennial dream of the final conversion of all Jews, but the apostle speaks of Israel in the same sense that he has employed almost exclusively in the entire letter. Paul had stated that the total hardening would not take place in the case of all the members of the Jewish race, but that there is a possibility of the conversion of some of them throughout the entire New Testament era. But in connection herewith the apostle intends to impart to his brethren, the members of the congregation at Rome, which was composed largely of Gentile Christians, a secret: I do not want you to remain in ignorance of this mystery, this secret, in order that you be not wise within yourselves. The secret of which Paul speaks is this: That obduration, blindness, in part has happened to Israel, until the full number of the heathen be come in, and thus all Israel will be saved. In order that the Roman Christians might not form their own opinion in regard to the matter, might not follow the drift of their own thoughts, he feels that it is best to tell them this at once. The blinding or hardening that he had been speaking of did not affect every member of the nation, but affected them only in part, namely, in so far as some of them had been finally rejected; but of the rest it was true that some of them were continually and gradually being converted and saved. While the fullness of the heathen is being gathered for Christ, while the number of those out of the Gentiles that will finally make up the body of those that are destined for salvation is being called through the Gospel, souls will also be gained from the midst of the Jews. Until the day of the revelation of Jesus Christ in His glory, therefore, there will always be some from the midst of the self-hardened Israelites that will come to the knowledge of the Savior. And thus the final result will be that all Israel will be saved, all those that are in deed and truth the children of Abraham, not according to the flesh only, but according to the spirit. These are the ones, from every nation under the sun, whom the Lord has chosen as His own and whom His saving call will reach sooner or later."

Romans 11 - Kretzmann's Popular Commentary of the Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Romans 11, Kretzmann's Popular Commentary of the Bible, One of over 125 Bible commentaries freely available, this commentary has been a favorite among confessional Lutherans since publication of the first volume in 1921.

www.studylight.org

The phrase in Rom. 11:26 reads -
"until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will be saved" RSV
"until the full number of the gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved" NRSVue
not as the Peshitta translates it
"until the fulness of the Gentiles shall come in. And then all Israel shall be saved"

 

[Randy Kluth]

Following Paul's thoughts I believe "all Israel" means the church, elect Jew and elect Gentile for the following reasons. The passage is discussing Jew and Gentile together in one olive tree and the olive tree represents the people of God. Jews the natural branches, Gentiles the wild branches. The original tree was all elect Jews and now the one tree is both Jew and Gentile, one church, all Israel.

Yes, I was raised up to believe in what is often called "Replacement Theology." I do not mean this as a pejorative. That's what my friends and family believed, and likely still believe. There is a natural hesitance to embrace "Dispensationalism," which appears to be a "Pop Prophecy" indulgence, spawning books, films, etc. However, instead of just casting entire schools of prophecy aside, I prefer to dig into each one to find the truth that appears to hold the system together.

In my view, Dispensationalism is held together by its strict adherence to the belief that Israel will be fully restored as a nation of God. And having studied these things for about 50 years (on and off), I have to agree with this part of Dispensationalism.

Some of it, like the Pretrib Rapture belief, I put aside as a kind of "Christian myth." Christians naturally don't want to experience "God's Wrath" and the ravages of the Great Tribulation, so-called, in which Antichrist will persecute them and behead them.

Particularly, Pretribbers are repulsed by the idea of going through this, even though the Revelation depicts saints as dying in this way, because they are told the entire Reign of Antichrist is "God's Wrath" and extreme beyond words, whereas in actual fact such "tribulations" have occurred throughout NT history and have been every bit as "great" as the Reign of Antichrist will be. How can one compare, for example, the afflictions of Christians under Nero who were burned as street lights or thrown into the Coliseum? How can we compare the deaths of Jews or Christians under the Reign of Antichrist with the Holocaust in WW2 with 6 million atrocious, cruel deaths?

No, I think the Great Tribulation was initially defined by Jesus to be the suffering of the Jewish People in the NT era, because of the homelessness begun under the Romans. And it was called "great" because of the sheer length of time associated with the Jewish Diaspora--2000 years! This was an affliction that assaulted all Jews, whether believer or unbeliever, although the kinds of afflictions suffered by these 2 groups were somewhat different.

But when we come to the Scriptures I have to admit that I take things at face value and am subject to how I've been taught. There is a built in prejudice in the way I read the prophetic Scriptures, depending on what school I've been introduced to. Nevertheless, this is how I view the mentioned Scriptures...

The metaphor of the Olive Tree is, any way you look at it, somewhat difficult for the modern mind. And that's because Paul was talking about the beginnings of Christianity and not at all like where we are today, with the whole world having been, in a sense, Christianized or introduced, at least, to Christianity.

Paul referenced Israel as the origins of this "tree." They were all called, initially, to faith in God's word which, at the time, was the Law of Moses. But it was in fact faith and was meant to lead to Christ's Salvation. So Israel was the Olive Tree, and the "branches broken off" were the Jews who turned away from faith in God's word, or from Christ.

On the other hand, the branches grafted in were pagan Gentiles who converted to the God of Israel. They did not join Israel, nor did they become Israel metaphorically. They simply were joined, spiritually, to the Tree of Faith initially begun by national Israel.

Today in the modern world we would not read Gentile converts as "wild branches grafted onto the natural olive tree." Many pagans in our world today are Gentiles who have fallen away from the Christian culture they were raised up in. They are the "natural branches" that have been "broken off." But like Paul said Jews can be restored to their native tree so also fallen Gentiles can return to their native Christian tree.

Since this has gotten so long, I'll have to break up my response into more posts. I hope you'll be interested...

 

[Randy Kluth]

"But it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his descendants; but 'Through Isaac shall your descendants be named.” (Rom 9:6-7 RSV)

This passage in Rom 9 simply suggests to me that all Israel was called, as a nation, to faith, but that doesn't mean all choose to continue in that faith. As we read through the Wilderness Journey many Israelis proved that they were not "on board" the "faith train."

And so, many were cut off. Those who began willfully under the covenant, who later chose to abandon that covenant, were "devoted to destruction." They could not undo their calling and their acceptance of that calling.

None of this means that we can re-define Israel as something less than a nation or race. The ideal was the full nation, but the reality was that at times the whole nation would be on board and at other times there would only be a small remnant choosing to live by faith. But the thought always was for the nation to be restored to full nationhood under a single standard of faith, in my opinion.

"And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved;" (Rom 9:27 RSV)

"So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace." (Rom 11:5 RSV)

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Gal 3:28 RSV) *Paul is speaking of salvation here, and salvation in Rom. 11:26 as well.

"For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. Peace and mercy be upon all who walk by this rule, upon the Israel of God." (Gal 6:15-16 RSV)
"Circumcision is nothing; uncircumcision is nothing; the only thing that counts is new creation! All who take this principle for their guide, peace and mercy be upon them, the Israel of God!" (Gal 6:15-16 REB) *Those of the new creation, Jew and Gentile, are the Israel of God continued, not replaced, the one olive tree God's people.

When Paul says that "circumcision counts for nothing" he is not saying being "Israeli" counts for nothing. He is just dismissing physical circumcision as a temporary practice until something better would emerge under Christ. Paul clearly indicated that Israel, being Israel, had an advantage over converts to Christianity. Their whole culture had been designed to prepare for Christian conversion!

In this Paul is not saying that Jews are superior to any other racial or national group. It's just that they had an advantage initially in the Early Church. It was a small step to go from Judaism to Christianity, but a much larger step or two for Gentiles converting to Christianity. Not only did new converts from pagan lands have to abandon their pagan ways, but they also had to learn new truths that had been present in Judaism all along!

The Apostle Peter gives labels to the church that were labels given to Israel in the OT -

"But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people, that you may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were no people but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy but now you have received mercy." (1Pet 2:9-10 RSV) *Ex. 19:6; Dt. 7:6; Isa. 61:6

1 Peter here is speaking of Israel's calling to be a nation of faith, and as such, he is speaking largely to Jews who were in exile. These were Jewish believers in Christ. As Paul said, Peter's initial calling was to the Jews, although later on he followed his calling, by Jesus, to go into all nations. Regardless of when Paul wrote this letter it seems to me he would maintain contact with groups of Jewish believers and write to them exclusively.

That "all Israel" means Jew and Gentile in the one church, was taught by John Calvin & Martin Luther, so I am not out on a limb alone in this. The Lutheran, Paul E. Kretzmann gives good commentary on this -

"All Israel" means, quite naturally to me, to be a reference to the whole nation of Israel. To turn "Israel" into a metaphor for Jews + Gentile Christians seems more than is meant or understood there. Paul is saying that initially and at times in Israel's history, faith is reduced to only a small remnant. But the idea is always to "restore Israel," which is precisely what Jesus suggested in Acts.

Acts 1.6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.

I would add that the fact national Israel always had allowed Gentile proselytes into their nation did not mean Israel ceased to be predominantly "Jewish." Minorities emigrate into a nation and adopt their ways, ultimately being immersed into the society, married into it, and finally being one with it.

The definition of Israel did not change to be "Jews + Gentiles." The definition of 'Israel" did not stop being "ethnic Israel."

It did not change to become a metaphor for something else! As long as they remained a cohesive social and cultural group they maintained their identity as "Jews" and as "ethnic Israel."

I would suggest that using "Israel" as a metaphor is entirely unnatural to those not familiar with Replacement Theology. And so, reading the Bible that way seems wrong and in fact, a kind of de-programming from what otherwise would naturally be understood as "ethnic Israel."

The phrase in Rom. 11:26 reads -
"until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will be saved" RSV
"until the full number of the gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved" NRSVue
not as the Peshitta translates it
"until the fulness of the Gentiles shall come in. And then all Israel shall be saved"

I do maintain respect for my brothers and sisters in Christ who believe in Covenant Theology along with Replacement Theology. It is the view held historically from the Early Church.

But I believe that it was also thought in the Early Church that Israel would recover and become a Christian nation. Since that didn't happen, early Premillennialists began to accept the idea that "true Israel" is the International Church, and not the physical nation. They created a dichotomy between the physical and the spiritual calling "Israel" the "physical" and the Church the "spiritual."

To me this oversimplifies things, since what is presently physical can convert to something spiritual. It is true that there is a profound dichotomy between physical justification by earthly ceremonies and spiritual justification by faith in Christ.

But in reality, the physical cannot be separated from the spiritual. How you prefer to look at this is up to you. You decide. After all, it's your beliefs that matter to you. I don't divide from Christians who hold either kind of belief on this matter.

 

[GISMYS_7]

"""ALL""" should be a word easy to understand!!!

 

[Keraz]

Who is the true Israel of God?
Who are the legitimate heirs of God’s promises? It cannot be just those who claim to be descendants of Jacob, such as the citizens of the modern State of Israel, or the many people groups who assert they are the ‘lost tribes’, etc.

The true Israelites of God are those individuals who meet the Covenant conditions, who by belief in God and in their moral and ethical behaviour, prove they belong to Him. 1 Peter 2:9-10
It was always possible for foreigners to become an Israelite, therefore parentage and actual descent is irrelevant:

Leviticus 19:33-34…foreigners are to be treated as native born among you…..

Isaiah 56:1-8….foreigners who give their allegiance to Me will be acceptable in My House of Prayer…..I shall add them to those who are already gathered.

Jesus said: Other sheep I must gather….John 19:16 and the Apostles made it clear that it is only by righteousness and faith that anyone is accepted into the House of Israel. Romans 9:6-9, Galatians 3:26-29, Ephesians 2:11-18

So to determine who qualifies as an Israelite person of God, we know:
1/ They cannot be determined by natural descent from Abraham, or more specifically, from Jacob. Nobody today, has proof of ancestry back to Abraham .

2/ They cannot become an Israelite by conversion to Judaism.

3/ Any person can become an Israelite of God by faith in Him, obedience to His Laws and the acceptance of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus. John 3:16-17



Jesus is the ‘root and tree trunk’ of Israel. Paul said that the promises made to Abraham were to one Person and they are all ‘yes’ in Christ. Galatians 3:16, 2 Cor. 1:20

So now all we Christians, in Christ as His friends and working with Him, are now the branches of the ‘olive tree’ of the true Israel.

Jews have been cut off, but can be grafted back, as individual Christian believers. Bible prophecy proves that only a remnant will do that. Ezekiel 6:1-14, Zechariah 13:7-9, Romans 9:27

WE Christians are all true born again people from every tribe, race, nation and language. Romans 2:28-29, Revelation 5:9-10, Isaiah 56:1-8

This truth that: all righteous Christians are the Israel of God, Galatians 6:14-16, destroys the false ‘rapture to heaven’ theory. Jewish Israel have been broken off from the Olive Tree and can only be grafted back, by having Christian faith.

The prophesies about Judah, the Jewish people, are clear: only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 6:13, Luke 19:27. Romans 9:27 They have set up their own religion and refuse to acknowledge Jesus. Romans 10:1-4

It will be all the true, righteous Christian people that will inherit the holy Land and they are the people who will display God’s glory and be His witnesses to the nations, in the last few years before Jesus Returns. Ezekiel 39:21-29, Isaiah 66:18b-21, Isaiah 49:8-13, Ephesians 1:11, Romans 9:24-26

 

[GISMYS_7]

I ask then, did God reject His people? Certainly not! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject His people, whom He foreknew. Romans 11:1

 

[quietthinker]

Prophecy that is Based on the Literal, Plain Word of God​

The Word is plain enough yet it seems the people aren't and which of them can interpret accurately is the question.

 

[Arthur81]

I'll clarify my position. I am not an Amillennialist, Reformed nor hold to Covenant Theology. I embrace the biblical particularism coming out of the Synod of Dort's response to the 5 points of Arminianism, and I am somewhat of a spiritual or gospel postmillennialist, NOT a theonomist. I am a "Partial Preterist", and "Partial Preterism is generally considered to be an historic orthodox interpretation as it affirms all items of the ecumenical Creeds of the Church." See the links -

https://www.theopedia.com/preterism

https://www.theopedia.com/supersessionism

My view would more accurately be called traditional "Supersessionism", not "Replacement Theology". The following will hopefully make things more clear for everyone.

"No longer shall your name be Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations." (Gen 17:5 RSV)

The name "Abram" is only found twice again in the OT. 1 Chr. 1:27 reflecting the name change, and Neh 9:7 in reference to Abraham when God called him, when his name was Abram. So Abram never appeared again as Abram, but as Abraham

The first mention of Israel is in the following -

"Then he said, 'Your name shall no more be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed.'” (Gen 32:28 RSV)

The name Jacob continued to be used even after God called him Israel.

It's interesting, the Scofield note on Gen. 32:28 is actually accurate when it reads:

"Both names are applied to the nation descended from Jacob. When used characteristically "Jacob" is the name for the natural posterity of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; "Israel" for the spiritual part of the nation. See Isaiah 9:8. The 'word' was sent to all the people, 'Jacob,' but it 'lighted upon Israel,' i.e. was comprehended by the spiritual part of the people."

The Puritan John Trapp writes: "...Jacob as Israel. Both these names he had given him, of striving and struggling. All God’s Israel are wrestlers by calling, {Ephesians 6:12} and, "as good soldiers of Jesus Christ," must "suffer hardness". {2 Timothy 2:3}"

I used the word of biblical particularism, the "elect" and it means the spiritual people, the true people of God. The Apostle Paul in the NT continues writing about Jews and Israel, distinguishing the true spiritual Israelite or Jew from the natural descendant -

"For he is not a real Jew who is one outwardly, nor is true circumcision something external and physical. He is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is a matter of the heart, spiritual and not literal. His praise is not from men but from God." (Rom 2:28-29 RSV)

"But it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his descendants; but 'Through Isaac shall your descendants be named.'” (Rom 9:6-7 RSV)

"...for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise." (Gal 3:26-29 RSV)

"But far be it from me to glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. Peace and mercy be upon all who walk by this rule, upon the Israel of God." (Gal 6:14-16 RSV)

The J. B. Phillips NT reads this as follows:

"Yet God forbid that I should boast about anything or anybody except the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, which means that the world is a dead thing to me and I am a dead man to the world. But in Christ it is not circumcision or uncircumcision that counts but the power of new birth. To all who live by this principle, to the true Israel of God, may there be peace and mercy! (Gal 6:14-16 Phillips)

The true church or assembly of God in the OT was spiritual Israel, not merely physical Jews descended from Abraham; and the true church or assembly of God in the New Covenant is still spiritual Israel, spiritual Israel continued. It is not a metaphor. Not all Jews and not all Gentiles are the true spiritual Israel of the New Covenant.

 

[Arthur81]

"""ALL""" should be a word easy to understand!!!

The word "all" must be understood in its context, depending on translation as the following show -

"Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him." (Luke 20:37-38 KJV)
compare
"And the fact that the dead are raised Moses himself showed, in the story about the bush, where he speaks of the Lord as the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Now he is God not of the dead, but of the living; for to him all of them are alive.” (Luke 20:37-38 NRSV)

"But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all [men] counted John, that he was a prophet indeed." (Mark 11:32 KJV)

The "all" or "all men" did not include those rejecting John, especially the scribes and elders, etc.

"For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that." (1Cor 7:7 KJV)

If "all men" was not restricted to the time period Paul was referring to, the human race would have ended. This must be seen as Paul restricts it in v26 -

"I think that, in view of the impending crisis, it is well for you to remain as you are." (1Cor 7:26 NRSV)

 

[Gottservant]

@Arthur81 I appreciate what you are trying to say.

You've got the passage of the Holy Spirit, right there!

EDIT: Also, you might want to look at the plain prophecy of different Churches.

 

[Arthur81]

I believe it is clear that Matt 24:1-35 is definitely about the coming destruction of the temple and the end of the Jewish nation. So, why are verses 29-31 not a contradiction to my belief that the passage is about 70 AD? First off, a well known principle we do well to keep in mind -

Westminster Confession of Faith
"I.9. The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself: and therefore, when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched and known by other places that speak more clearly." (2 Pet. 1:20–21, Acts 15:15–16)

Jesus prophesied the destruction of the temple, in Luke and Mark it is recorded that is what the disciples asked about, in in Jewish themed Matthew, the addition of the end of the [Jewish] world or age is added. Matt. 24:14 was clearly fulfilled in Paul's day, Col. 1:23; Rom. 1:8. The timing given in Matt 24:34 is quite clear in plain, ordinary language and the Revised English Bible makes it clear -

"Truly I tell you: the present generation will live to see it all." (Matt 24:34 REB) and the Weymouth NT renders it "I tell you in solemn truth that the present generation will certainly not pass away without all these things having first taken place." (Matt 24:34 Weymouth) How do I see vs 29-31?

29 “Immediately after the suffering of those days
the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from heaven,
and the powers of heaven will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see ‘the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven’ with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matt 24:29-31 NRSV) *The NRSV reads v29 as a quote out of the OT, as does the REB, NLT, NIV, etc. and this introduces verses 30-31. This introduction quoted is a hint that the signs coming are are going to be OT type apocalyptic language -

"For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light." (Isa 13:10 NRSV) *Babylon's destruction predicted
"When I blot you out, I will cover the heavens, and make their stars dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give its light." (Ezek 32:7 NRSV)*Judgment upon Eygpt

Mark and Luke do not mention "sign of the Son of Man", but read as Mark, "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory." *the 'sign' appears to be the description which follow

"An oracle concerning Egypt. See, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud and comes to Egypt; the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them." (Isa 19:1 NRSV) *Here it refers to the judgment coming upon Egypt. See also, Nah. 1:3; Psa. 104:3

"angels" are ministers, messengers, pastors as in: "the seven stars are the angels(aggelos) of the seven churches" Rev. 1:20; "Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers(aggelos) Jas 2:25; "he will send out his angels(aggelos)" Matt 24:31

"trumpet" is used of a prophet's voice "Lift up your voice like a trumpet!" Isa 58:1; "Also I raised up sentinels for you: 'Give heed to the sound of the trumpet!'” Jer. 6:17

"gather his elect from the four winds" the trumpet is used to summon the elect to the congregation of God "Make two silver trumpets; you shall make them of hammered work; and you shall use them for summoning the congregation, and for breaking camp. When both are blown, the whole congregation shall assemble before you at the entrance of the tent of meeting. (Num 10:2-3 NRSV)

It is for gathering together as an assembly "Declare in Judah, and proclaim in Jerusalem, and say: Blow the trumpet through the land; shout aloud and say, 'Gather together, and let us go into the fortified cities!'” (Jer 4:5 NRSV)

"Blow the trumpet in Zion; sanctify a fast; call a solemn assembly; gather the people." (Joel 2:15, 16a NRSV)

"There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrown out. Then people will come from east and west, from north and south, and will eat in the kingdom of God." (Luke 13:28-29 NRSV)

I see two choices: 1, read vs 30-31 as literal and never as yet happening, which requires making vs 14 & 34 figurative; or 2, reading vs 30-31 in the apocalyptic language from the OT that the Jews would be familiar with. Number 1 would require some linguistic gymnastics to twist the literal verses into some figurative language. I know there are various views on this, but what I find error is introducing some 7-year tribulation here which happens after the church is 'raptured' from among the mass of mankind, and then another resurrection introduced at the end of the 7-year tribulation. This is tied into the idea that God has two separate people of God which the NT makes clear is not the case.

 

[Arthur81]

In my OP I gave what I consider the literal and plain statements of scripture that I view like a framework for the structure of prophecy. A skeleton to which I'll later add flesh with the more figurative and symbolic texts. I can't interpret the symbolic and interpretive in a way to contradict the plain and literal. Since Daniel, Matthew 24/Mark 13/Luke 21 and Revelation are usually seen together, I also see them together and I'll explain why.

The K&D Commentary list 3 approaches to the 70 weeks of Daniel 9.
1. Most of the church fathers and the older orthodox interpreters find prophesied here the appearance of Christ in the flesh, His death, and the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans.
2. The majority of the modern interpreters, on the other hand, refer the whole passage to the time of Antiochus Epiphanes.
3. Finally, some of the church fathers and several modern theologians have interpreted the prophecy eschatologically, as an announcement of the development of the kingdom of God from the end of the Exile on to the perfecting of the kingdom by the second coming of Christ at the end of the days.

I follow the older orthodox, with which I am more familiar and comfortable it seems to fit the context better. So, I'm seeing this prophecy as a total of 70 weeks running consecutively without interruption, making 490 years. This places the 490 years coming to a close in the 1st century. It is backwards or reversed interpretation to have previously decided upon the interpretation of the elements in this passage, and then insert a gap between the 69th and 70th week to make it match the already decided upon interpretations.

Matthew 24 is the destruction of the temple which brings the Jewish age or world to an end. Mt. 24:14, that was fulfilled in 1st century as stated by Paul - Col. 1:23; Rom. 1:8. The "this generation" is clear in its meaning as it is contrasted with "that day" in v36, which looks toward "the last day" at the resurrection.

The book of Revelation gives timing information emphatically -

"The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place; he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and who keep what is written in it; for the time is near." (Rev 1:1-3 NRSV)

and for emphasis, at the end of the book

"And he said to me, 'These words are trustworthy and true, for the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place...And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. (Rev 22:6, 10 NRSV)

Dating the book at 95 AD and then viewing the prophecies as a history of the church through the centuries; or, dating the book at 68 AD and then viewing the prophecies as a preterist can be legitimate, but the timings will not agree in any way with a full futurist view of Revelation. It is extremely inconsistent to view the book literally with all the numbers and symbols, and then view the timing as figurative or symbolic.

To explain away the timings given by saying God's timing is not our timing is makes no sense. Why would God give us the timing so emphatically for our understanding, but then secretly use his timing to hide it from us? To appeal to the statement "with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" can't be used and then make the 1000 years of Revelation 20 literal.

So, the 1st century is the setting for Daniel 9:24ff, the Mt. Olivet Discourse and chapters 4-11 of Revelation are also the 1st century, 70 AD. Chapters 12-19 then symbolize the fall of Rome which began shortly after 70 AD. Chapter 20 contains the last day, resurrection and judgment.

The first 30 years of my life was under the preaching of addicts to the Scofield Reference Bible. I've been studying my way out of that error over the last 51 years. I am comfortable and have no quibble with the historic views of the A-mils, Post-mils or old time Pre-mils. I do totally reject the modern ideas found in dispensationalism -

"What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done; there is nothing new under the sun." (Eccl 1:9 NRSV)

"Beloved, while eagerly preparing to write to you about the salvation we share, I find it necessary to write and appeal to you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints." (Jude 1:3 NRSV)

"Thus says the LORD: Stand at the crossroads, and look, and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way lies; and walk in it, and find rest for your souls. But they said, 'We will not walk in it.'” (Jer 6:16 NRSV)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Those thar choose to reject the rapture will be left behind=their very poor choice!!

even if they have the right gospel and are born again?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Following Paul's thoughts I believe "all Israel" means the church, elect Jew and elect Gentile for the following reasons. The passage is discussing Jew and Gentile together in one olive tree and the olive tree represents the people of God. Jews the natural branches, Gentiles the wild branches. The original tree was all elect Jews and now the one tree is both Jew and Gentile, one church, all Israel.

How can it be?

In romans 11 Israel was blinded in part. and there was a remnant, This is all Israel.

The church would be the unnatural branches which composes of the gentiles. and the natural branch of saved Jews. Yet paul also seperates the saved jews (the remnant) from this body when he tells gentiles not to boast..

 

[Arthur81]

How can it be?

In romans 11 Israel was blinded in part. and there was a remnant, This is all Israel.

The church would be the unnatural branches which composes of the gentiles. and the natural branch of saved Jews. Yet paul also seperates the saved jews (the remnant) from this body when he tells gentiles not to boast..

I'll repeat a previous answer with a few more applicable verses -

But if some of the branches(Physical Jews) were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot(Elect Gentiles), were grafted in their place to share the richness/rich root (Jesus the Christ) of the olive tree(God's people), do not boast over the branches(Physical Jews). If you do boast, remember it is not you that support the root(Christ), but the root(Christ) that supports you. You will say, “Branches(Physical Jews) were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches(Physical Jews), neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. And even the others(Physical Jews), if they do not persist in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you have been cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree(Gentiles), and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree(God's people), how much more will these natural branches(Elect Jews) be grafted back into their own olive tree(God's people). Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel(Physical Jews), until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel(elect Jews & elect Gentiles) will be saved; as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” (Rom 11:17-27 RSV)

For he is not a real Jew who is one outwardly, nor is true circumcision something external and physical. He is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is a matter of the heart, spiritual and not literal. His praise is not from men but from God. (Rom 2:28-29 RSV)

But it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his descendants; but “Through Isaac shall your descendants be named.” (Rom 9:6-7 RSV)

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise. (Gal 3:28-29 RSV)

But far be it from me to glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. Peace and mercy be upon all who walk by this rule, upon the Israel of God. (Gal 6:14-16 RSV)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I'll repeat a previous answer with a few more applicable verses -

But if some of the branches(Physical Jews) were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot(Elect Gentiles), were grafted in their place to share the richness/rich root (Jesus the Christ) of the olive tree(God's people), do not boast over the branches(Physical Jews). If you do boast, remember it is not you that support the root(Christ), but the root(Christ) that supports you. You will say, “Branches(Physical Jews) were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches(Physical Jews), neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. And even the others(Physical Jews), if they do not persist in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you have been cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree(Gentiles), and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree(God's people), how much more will these natural branches(Elect Jews) be grafted back into their own olive tree(God's people). Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel(Physical Jews), until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel(elect Jews & elect Gentiles) will be saved; as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” (Rom 11:17-27 RSV)

For he is not a real Jew who is one outwardly, nor is true circumcision something external and physical. He is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is a matter of the heart, spiritual and not literal. His praise is not from men but from God. (Rom 2:28-29 RSV)

But it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his descendants; but “Through Isaac shall your descendants be named.” (Rom 9:6-7 RSV)

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise. (Gal 3:28-29 RSV)

But far be it from me to glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. Peace and mercy be upon all who walk by this rule, upon the Israel of God. (Gal 6:14-16 RSV)

Again there is an issue

Gentiles were not promised if they repented they would recieve a Specific promise made to israel.

All Israel is ALL Israel. It is not gentiles and jews who are saved.

Second, the quote is taken from Is 59. Where Israel repents. and says they DEPARTED from God. and confesses their sins, Thus the deliverer will come from Zion.. etc etc.

the nation of Gentiles who were grafted in did not depart from God and confess that they departed from God. Israel does this..

 

[covenantee]

All Israel is ALL Israel. It is not gentiles and jews who are saved.

You err.

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only the faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel", comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.