Proselyting Techniques of Mormon Missionaries
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They are an outstanding Ministry that simply reprints early LDS documents.
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Wrangler
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Not a verse to be seen and not related to the OP at all. What are you getting at?
The reader will notice that in the study that follows we refer to the Book of Mormon by the three letters BOM, and the word Apocrypha is abbreviated to APO.
1. As noted above, both the book of Nephi and the book of 2 Maccabees use the word "Nephi" in their opening chapter.
1. As noted above, both the book of Nephi and the book of 2 Maccabees use the word "Nephi" in their opening chapter.
2. There is, in fact, a significant parallel in wording between 2 Maccabees and the Book of Mormon in that both books use the words "the place" and "call it Nephi."
3. As pointed out above, the name "Laban" occurs in both Judith and the Book of Mormon.
4. Both Nephi and Judith were very devout servants of the Lord.
5. Both stories speak of a wicked man who wanted to destroy God's people.
6. In both cases the people were in great fear.
7. Both Nephi and Judith counseled their associates to be strong.
8. Both claimed that God's strength did not depend upon numbers.
9. Both Nephi and his brethren and Judith and her maid went on a secret mission for the Lord.
10. In both cases the wicked man was delivered into the hands of the servant of the Lord.
11. In both cases the wicked man was drunk.
12. In both cases the servant of the Lord took hold of the wicked man's weapon.
13. In both cases the servant of the Lord took hold of the wicked man's hair.
14. In both cases the wicked man's head was cut off with his own weapon.
15. In both cases the servant of the Lord returned to those who were waiting without being caught.
16. Both Nephi and Judith made off with some of the wicked man's possessions.
17. When the people learned of the success of the mission they rejoiced.
18. In both cases the people offered burnt offerings to the Lord.
19. Both Nephi and Judith use a similar expression.
20. Nephi was raised in a house in Jerusalem, but before he killed Laban, his father took the family into the wilderness and they lived in tents. Judith also lived in a house. After her husband's death, however, she made a tent which she put on top of her house. Later she cut off Holofernes' head in his own tent.
21. In both 1 Nephi and Judith we find the words "three days," "valley," and "to the tent of."
22. In both accounts the servant of the Lord changes apparel.
23. Both Nephi and Judith used trickery to obtain the desired result.
24. Both Laban and Holofernes were slain while others were sleeping.
25. Both 1 Nephi and the book of Judith contain a similar expression.
26. As we mentioned above, the very first verse found in 2 Maccabees mentions the Jews in Egypt. The second verse in the Book of Mormon contains Nephi's incredible statement that the book would be written in the Egyptian language. The letter mentioned in the Apocrypha may have led Joseph Smith to conclude that it would be acceptable to claim his book of sacred scriptures was written in Egyptian.
27. We have also mentioned that the introduction to the first chapter of 2 Maccabees contains a four-word phrase which is also found in the Book of Mormon.
28. In the second verse of the Book of Mormon Nephi says that he is going to make a "record." 2 Maccabees 2:1 speaks of some "records" which told of a commandment given by Jeremy the prophet. A three-word parallel is found later in 1 Nephi.
29. In the very first chapter of the Book of Mormon, Nephi says he is going to make an abridgment of his record. This is suspiciously like a portion of 2 Maccabees. There is an interesting three-word parallel in the two accounts.
30. Both 1 Nephi and 1 Maccabees refer to a "treasury," plates or tables "of brass," and use the word "commanded."
31. The reader will remember that 2 Maccabees, chapter 3, contains a story about "the treasury in Jerusalem" and Heliodorus' attempt to plunder its contents. Laban's treasury was also in Jerusalem. Both Nephi and Heliodorus had to travel to Jerusalem in their attempt to obtain access to the treasury.
32. Both Laban and Heliodorus were brought to the ground so they could not thwart the work of the Lord.
STATE OF NEW YORK v. JOSEPH SMITH.
Warrant issued upon written complaint upon oath of Peter G. Bridgeman, who informed that one Joseph Smith of Bainbridge was a disorderly person and an imposter. Prisoner brought before Court March 20, 1826.
Prisoner examined: says that he came from the town of Palmyra, and had been at the house of Josiah Stowel in Bainbridge most of time since; had small part of time been employed by said Stowel on his farm, and going to school. That he had a certain stone which he had occasionally looked at to determine where hidden treasures in the bowels of the earth were; that he professed to tell in this manner where gold mines were a distance under ground, and had looked for Mr. Stowel several times, and had informed him where he could find these treasures, and Mr. Stowel had been engaged in digging for them. That at Palmyra he pretended to tell by looking at this stone where coined money was buried in Pennsylvania, and while at Palmyra had frequently ascertained in that way where lost property was of various kinds; that he had occasionally been in the habit of looking through this stone to find lost property for three years, but of late had pretty much given it up on account of its injuring his health, especially
67
A photograph of Justice Albert Neely's bill showing the costs involved in several trials in 1826. The fifth item from the top mentions the trial of "Joseph Smith the Glass Looker." When the letter "S" was repeated in documents of Joseph Smith's time, as in the word "Glass" the two letters appeared as a "P" (see the word "Assault" in items 1, 4, 7 and 9).
We have typed out the portion of the bill which mentions Joseph Smith. This bill proves that the published court record is authentic.
same
vs
Joseph Smith
The Glass looker
March 20, 1826
Misdemeanor
To my fees in examination
of the above cause 2.68
[Web-editor: Larger photos below.]
Neely and De Zeng's Bills
(Joseph Smith parts highlighted.)
Justice Albert Neely's bill
Back of Neely's bill
with certification of authenticity
Constable Philip De Zeng's bill
Back of De Zeng's bill
with certification of authenticity
68
his eyes making them sore; that he did not solicit business of this kind, and had always rather declined having anything to do with this business.
Warrant issued upon written complaint upon oath of Peter G. Bridgeman, who informed that one Joseph Smith of Bainbridge was a disorderly person and an imposter. Prisoner brought before Court March 20, 1826.
Prisoner examined: says that he came from the town of Palmyra, and had been at the house of Josiah Stowel in Bainbridge most of time since; had small part of time been employed by said Stowel on his farm, and going to school. That he had a certain stone which he had occasionally looked at to determine where hidden treasures in the bowels of the earth were; that he professed to tell in this manner where gold mines were a distance under ground, and had looked for Mr. Stowel several times, and had informed him where he could find these treasures, and Mr. Stowel had been engaged in digging for them. That at Palmyra he pretended to tell by looking at this stone where coined money was buried in Pennsylvania, and while at Palmyra had frequently ascertained in that way where lost property was of various kinds; that he had occasionally been in the habit of looking through this stone to find lost property for three years, but of late had pretty much given it up on account of its injuring his health, especially
67
A photograph of Justice Albert Neely's bill showing the costs involved in several trials in 1826. The fifth item from the top mentions the trial of "Joseph Smith the Glass Looker." When the letter "S" was repeated in documents of Joseph Smith's time, as in the word "Glass" the two letters appeared as a "P" (see the word "Assault" in items 1, 4, 7 and 9).
We have typed out the portion of the bill which mentions Joseph Smith. This bill proves that the published court record is authentic.
same
vs
Joseph Smith
The Glass looker
March 20, 1826
Misdemeanor
To my fees in examination
of the above cause 2.68
[Web-editor: Larger photos below.]
Neely and De Zeng's Bills
(Joseph Smith parts highlighted.)
Justice Albert Neely's bill
Back of Neely's bill
with certification of authenticity
Constable Philip De Zeng's bill
Back of De Zeng's bill
with certification of authenticity
68
his eyes making them sore; that he did not solicit business of this kind, and had always rather declined having anything to do with this business.
A Sample of Joseph Smith's
False Prophecies
False Prophecies
|
about how large an army to raise.
Quote taken out of context. Let me remind you that I showed in that post that it was highly relevant to the OP as this type of sales tactic, promoting blasphemy as if we will be like God, is how they proselyte. Joseph Smith called himself a prophet as do other Mormon leaders and defy the bible so they push the book of Mormon so that people won't know the truth that the bible spells out. That is what the OP is about. Mormon proselyting techniques. Here is the scripture you seek:
John 10:17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”
Joseph Smith recorded in his official history that the angel informed him the plates were gold:
When first I looked upon him, I was afraid; but the fear soon left me. He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me and that his name was Moroni. . . . He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the sources from whence they sprang (History of the Church, vol. 1, by Joseph Smith, Deseret Book, 1976, pp. 11-12).
However, in 1842, Smith seemed to qualify his description of the plates. He wrote to John Wentworth that the plates had "the appearance of gold":
These records were engraven on plates which had the appearance of gold, each plate was six inches wide and eight inches long, and not quite so thick as common tin. They were filled with engravings, in Egyptian characters, and bound together in a volume as the leaves of a book, with three rings running through the whole. The volume was something near six inches in thickness, a part of which was sealed. The characters on the unsealed part were small, and beautifully engraved (History of the Church, vol. 4, p. 537).
The change from stating the plates were "gold" to the "appearance of gold" was possibly due to someone pointing out that a stack of plates such as he described would have weighed somewhere in the vicinity of 200 pounds. Since he supposedly ran a distance of three miles, jumping over obstacles, and warding off assailants, all while carrying the plates, his story would lack credibility.
Weight of the Plates
A discussion of the weight and size of the plates was given by LDS Apostle John A. Widtsoe and Franklin S. Harris:
The plates upon which the Book of Mormon was engraved were made of gold and have been described as being about six inches wide by eight inches long by six inches thick. A cube of solid gold of that size, if the gold were pure, would weigh two hundred pounds, which would be a heavy weight for a man to carry, even though he were of the athletic type of Joseph Smith. This has been urged as an evidence against the truth of the Book of Mormon, since it is known that on several occasions the Prophet carried the plates in his arms. It is very unlikely, however, that the plates were made of pure gold. They would have been too soft and in danger of destruction by distortion. For the purpose of record keeping, plates made of gold mixed with a certain amount of copper would be better, . . . If the plates were made of eight karat gold, which is gold frequently used in present-day jewelry, and allowing a 10 percent space between the leaves, the total weight of the plates would not be above one hundred and seventeen pounds—a weight easily carried by a man as strong as was Joseph Smith (Seven Claims of The Book of Mormon: A Collection of Evidences, by John A. Widtsoe and Franklin S. Harris, Jr., Zion's Printing and Publishing Company, 1937, pp. 38-39).
While Apostle Widtsoe proposes a possible weight for the plates of 117 pounds, the friends of Smith estimated them to be between 40 and 60 pounds.
Martin Harris estimated the weight of the plates at "forty or fifty pounds." (Tiffany's Monthly, 1859, p. 166, reprinted in Early Mormon Documents, vol. 2, p. 306) This would not be enough weight for them to be made of lead, let alone gold. We have a set of lead plates made to the size described by Smith and they weigh 117 pounds. This weight is too great and the plates too cumbersome for Smith to have run through the woods three miles while fighting off attackers, as described by both Martin Harris and Smith's mother, Lucy.
A number of people mention "hefting" the plates: Lucy and Martin Harris, their daughter, Emma Smith, Lucy Smith, William Smith and others. Martin Harris related:
My daughter said, they were about as much as she could lift. They were now in the glass-box, and my wife said they were very heavy. They both lifted them (Early Mormon Documents , vol. 2, p.309).
If the plates weighed only "forty or fifty pounds" as Harris stated, his wife and daughter possibly could have picked them up. But are we to believe that this young woman hefted at least 117 pounds?
Dan Vogel theorizes that Smith could have constructed a set of plates from tin:
His [Smith's] remark that a plate was not quite as thick as common tin may have been meant to divert attention from the possibility that they were actually made from some material otherwise readily available to him. Indeed, his prohibition against visual inspection seems contrived to the skeptic who might explain that the would-be prophet constructed a set of plates to be felt through a cloth.
The construction of such a book would have been relatively easy. There were scraps of tin available on the Smith property and elsewhere in the vicinity, . . . Using a pair of metal shears, it would have been easy to cut a number of 6x8-inch sheets. A hole punch, nail, or some similar instrument could have been used to make three holes along one edge of each plate. Then it would have been a matter of passing three wires or rods through the holes and bending them into rings. A book made of tin plates of the dimensions (6x8x6 inches) described by Smith would have weighed between fifty and sixty pounds, corresponding to the weight that was mentioned by eye-witness accounts (Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet, p. 98).
When first I looked upon him, I was afraid; but the fear soon left me. He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me and that his name was Moroni. . . . He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the sources from whence they sprang (History of the Church, vol. 1, by Joseph Smith, Deseret Book, 1976, pp. 11-12).
However, in 1842, Smith seemed to qualify his description of the plates. He wrote to John Wentworth that the plates had "the appearance of gold":
These records were engraven on plates which had the appearance of gold, each plate was six inches wide and eight inches long, and not quite so thick as common tin. They were filled with engravings, in Egyptian characters, and bound together in a volume as the leaves of a book, with three rings running through the whole. The volume was something near six inches in thickness, a part of which was sealed. The characters on the unsealed part were small, and beautifully engraved (History of the Church, vol. 4, p. 537).
The change from stating the plates were "gold" to the "appearance of gold" was possibly due to someone pointing out that a stack of plates such as he described would have weighed somewhere in the vicinity of 200 pounds. Since he supposedly ran a distance of three miles, jumping over obstacles, and warding off assailants, all while carrying the plates, his story would lack credibility.
Weight of the Plates
A discussion of the weight and size of the plates was given by LDS Apostle John A. Widtsoe and Franklin S. Harris:
The plates upon which the Book of Mormon was engraved were made of gold and have been described as being about six inches wide by eight inches long by six inches thick. A cube of solid gold of that size, if the gold were pure, would weigh two hundred pounds, which would be a heavy weight for a man to carry, even though he were of the athletic type of Joseph Smith. This has been urged as an evidence against the truth of the Book of Mormon, since it is known that on several occasions the Prophet carried the plates in his arms. It is very unlikely, however, that the plates were made of pure gold. They would have been too soft and in danger of destruction by distortion. For the purpose of record keeping, plates made of gold mixed with a certain amount of copper would be better, . . . If the plates were made of eight karat gold, which is gold frequently used in present-day jewelry, and allowing a 10 percent space between the leaves, the total weight of the plates would not be above one hundred and seventeen pounds—a weight easily carried by a man as strong as was Joseph Smith (Seven Claims of The Book of Mormon: A Collection of Evidences, by John A. Widtsoe and Franklin S. Harris, Jr., Zion's Printing and Publishing Company, 1937, pp. 38-39).
While Apostle Widtsoe proposes a possible weight for the plates of 117 pounds, the friends of Smith estimated them to be between 40 and 60 pounds.
Martin Harris estimated the weight of the plates at "forty or fifty pounds." (Tiffany's Monthly, 1859, p. 166, reprinted in Early Mormon Documents, vol. 2, p. 306) This would not be enough weight for them to be made of lead, let alone gold. We have a set of lead plates made to the size described by Smith and they weigh 117 pounds. This weight is too great and the plates too cumbersome for Smith to have run through the woods three miles while fighting off attackers, as described by both Martin Harris and Smith's mother, Lucy.
A number of people mention "hefting" the plates: Lucy and Martin Harris, their daughter, Emma Smith, Lucy Smith, William Smith and others. Martin Harris related:
My daughter said, they were about as much as she could lift. They were now in the glass-box, and my wife said they were very heavy. They both lifted them (Early Mormon Documents , vol. 2, p.309).
If the plates weighed only "forty or fifty pounds" as Harris stated, his wife and daughter possibly could have picked them up. But are we to believe that this young woman hefted at least 117 pounds?
Dan Vogel theorizes that Smith could have constructed a set of plates from tin:
His [Smith's] remark that a plate was not quite as thick as common tin may have been meant to divert attention from the possibility that they were actually made from some material otherwise readily available to him. Indeed, his prohibition against visual inspection seems contrived to the skeptic who might explain that the would-be prophet constructed a set of plates to be felt through a cloth.
The construction of such a book would have been relatively easy. There were scraps of tin available on the Smith property and elsewhere in the vicinity, . . . Using a pair of metal shears, it would have been easy to cut a number of 6x8-inch sheets. A hole punch, nail, or some similar instrument could have been used to make three holes along one edge of each plate. Then it would have been a matter of passing three wires or rods through the holes and bending them into rings. A book made of tin plates of the dimensions (6x8x6 inches) described by Smith would have weighed between fifty and sixty pounds, corresponding to the weight that was mentioned by eye-witness accounts (Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet, p. 98).
Again, passionately disagree. And quoting is not the same as being truthful or understanding-- remember, even the devil can quote scripture.
Stephen Burnett, an early Mormon convert, heard Martin Harris speak in 1838, where Harris admitted the witnesses did not physically handle the plates, which led Burnett to renounce all of Mormonism. In April of 1838 he wrote a letter to Lyman E. Johnson explaining his decision:
. . . when I came to hear Martin Harris state in a public congregation that he never saw the plates with his natural eyes only in vision or imagination, neither Oliver [Cowdery] nor David [Whitmer] & also that the eight witnesses never saw them & hesitated to sign that instrument for that reason, but were persuaded to do it, the last pedestal gave way, in my view our foundation was sapped & the entire superstructure fell in heap of ruins, I therefore three week since in the Stone Chapel gave a full history of the church since I became acquainted with it, the false preaching & prophecying etc of Joseph [Smith] together with the reasons why I took the course which I was resolved to do, and renounced the Book of Mormon . . . after we were done speaking M[artin] Harris arose & said he was sorry for any man who rejected the Book of Mormon for he knew it was true, he said he had hefted the plates repeatedly in a box with only a tablecloth or a handkerchief over them, but he never saw them only as he saw a city through a mountain. And said that he never should have told that the testimony of the eight [witnesses] was false, if it had not been picked out of [h]im but should have let it passed as it was . . . I am well satisfied for myself that if the witnesses whose names are attached to the Book of Mormon never saw the plates as Martin [Harris] admits that there can be nothing brought to prove that any such thing ever existed . . .[26]
Stephen Burnett letter to Lyman E. Johnson, April 15, 1838,
from letterbook in the LDS Church archives.
According to Martin Harris, the witnesses only hefted the plates, while stored in a sack, and did not view them with the naked eye.
. . . when I came to hear Martin Harris state in a public congregation that he never saw the plates with his natural eyes only in vision or imagination, neither Oliver [Cowdery] nor David [Whitmer] & also that the eight witnesses never saw them & hesitated to sign that instrument for that reason, but were persuaded to do it, the last pedestal gave way, in my view our foundation was sapped & the entire superstructure fell in heap of ruins, I therefore three week
Stephen Burnett letter to Lyman E. Johnson, April 15, 1838,
from letterbook in the LDS Church archives.
According to Martin Harris, the witnesses only hefted the plates, while stored in a sack, and did not view them with the naked eye.
@The Learner , you're copy-pasting a lot of stuff, which makes it hard for me to sort through what's quotes versus your actual thoughts/questions. Could you narrow things down for me?
Joseph Smith only had three witnesses who claimed to see an angel. The Shakers, however, had a large number of witnesses who claimed they saw angels and the Roll and Book. There are over a hundred pages of testimony from "Living Witnesses." The evidence indicates that Martin Harris accepted the Sacred Roll and Book as a divine revelation. Non-Mormon Clark Braden stated: "Harris declared repeatedly that he had as much evidence for a Shaker book he had as for the Book of Mormon."[64]
Mormons have also conceded that Martin Harris believed in the Shaker book. In a thesis written at Brigham Young University, Wayne Cutler Gunnell stated that on December 31, 1844, "Phineas H. Young [Brigham Young's brother] and other leaders of the Kirtland organization" wrote a letter to Brigham Young in which they stated: "There are in this place all kinds of teaching; Martin Harris is a firm believer in Shakerism, says his testimony is greater than it was of the Book of Mormon."[65]
The fact that Martin Harris would even join such a group shows that he was unstable and easily influenced. Therefore, his testimony that the Book of Mormon was of divine origin should not be relied upon. How can anyone put their trust in men who were constantly following after movements like the Shakers, Strangites, and the McLellin group? The Book of Mormon witnesses when "weighed in the balances" are found wanting.http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no117.htm#Shakers
Mormons have also conceded that Martin Harris believed in the Shaker book. In a thesis written at Brigham Young University, Wayne Cutler Gunnell stated that on December 31, 1844, "Phineas H. Young [Brigham Young's brother] and other leaders of the Kirtland organization" wrote a letter to Brigham Young in which they stated: "There are in this place all kinds of teaching; Martin Harris is a firm believer in Shakerism, says his testimony is greater than it was of the Book of Mormon."[65]
The fact that Martin Harris would even join such a group shows that he was unstable and easily influenced. Therefore, his testimony that the Book of Mormon was of divine origin should not be relied upon. How can anyone put their trust in men who were constantly following after movements like the Shakers, Strangites, and the McLellin group? The Book of Mormon witnesses when "weighed in the balances" are found wanting.http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no117.htm#Shakers
Brigham Young related a conversation he had with Joseph Smith regarding seer stones:
I met with the Twelve at brother Joseph's. He conversed with us in a familiar manner . . . and explained to us the Urim and Thummim. . . . He [Joseph] said that every man who lived on the earth was entitled to a seer stone, and should have one, but they are kept from them in consequence of their wickedness, and most of them who do find one make an evil use of it: he showed us his seer stone.[73]
Seer stones remained popular with the Mormons even into the Utah period. Historian D. Michael Quinn explained:
In 1860 Young also preached "that the gift of seeing was a natural gift, that there are thousands in the world who are natural born Seers." [Deseret News—Weekly, Dec. 26, 1860] Shortly after publication of a summary of this sermon, Apostle John Taylor explained to a church congregation the meaning of Young's remarks in regard to seer stones and church authority: "Brigham Young in saying that He did not profess to be a prophet [,] seer & Revelator as Joseph Smith was, was speaking of men being born Natural Prophets & Seers. Many have the gift of seeing through seer stones without the Priesthood at all. He [Young] had not this gift [of using seer stones] naturally yet He was an Apostle & the Preside[n]t of the Church & Kingdom of God on the Earth . . ." With such statements from church leaders, it is understandable why many Mormon pioneers exercised "this gift" of using seer stones.[74]
I met with the Twelve at brother Joseph's. He conversed with us in a familiar manner . . . and explained to us the Urim and Thummim. . . . He [Joseph] said that every man who lived on the earth was entitled to a seer stone, and should have one, but they are kept from them in consequence of their wickedness, and most of them who do find one make an evil use of it: he showed us his seer stone.[73]
Seer stones remained popular with the Mormons even into the Utah period. Historian D. Michael Quinn explained:
In 1860 Young also preached "that the gift of seeing was a natural gift, that there are thousands in the world who are natural born Seers." [Deseret News—Weekly, Dec. 26, 1860] Shortly after publication of a summary of this sermon, Apostle John Taylor explained to a church congregation the meaning of Young's remarks in regard to seer stones and church authority: "Brigham Young in saying that He did not profess to be a prophet [,] seer & Revelator as Joseph Smith was, was speaking of men being born Natural Prophets & Seers. Many have the gift of seeing through seer stones without the Priesthood at all. He [Young] had not this gift [of using seer stones] naturally yet He was an Apostle & the Preside[n]t of the Church & Kingdom of God on the Earth . . ." With such statements from church leaders, it is understandable why many Mormon pioneers exercised "this gift" of using seer stones.[74]
Everyone download all these free books. Their bookstore has closed and they may not be here later.
*sigh and shake my head*.
Let me know when you want to talk about Christ and Truth.
Let me know when you want to talk about Christ and Truth.
This guy has made some very good videos on Joseph Smith.
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