Proselyting Techniques of Mormon Missionaries

[The Learner]

1895	Wilford Woodruff	Millennial Star 57:355
January 7, 1897	Joseph F. Smith	Letter to the Honorable A. Saxey, Provo, Utah from Joseph F. Smith; d1325/Bk4/fd 1
December 18, 1897	Franklin D. Richards	Letter of F. D. Richards, Richards Family Collection, Franklin Dewey Richards Letterbook; Ms/f/318/reel 11
Spetember, 1902	Charles Penrose	Improvement Era (September 1902) and Millennial Star (11 December 1902)
June 27, 1908	Samuel O. Bennion	Liahona, The Elders Journal, vol. 6, p. 33
1909	Joseph Fielding Smith	Undetermined
April, 1915	Charles Penrose	General Conference
April, 1916	Charles Penrose	General Conference
October, 1916	Joseph F. Smith	General Conference
September 6, 1917	George C. Jamoson	General Conference
July 23, 1921	B.H. Roberts	Deseret News
February 26, 1931	Heber J. Grant	Messages from the First Presidency, 5:289-290
April 15, 1938	Joseph Fielding Smith	Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p. 96
December 12, 1943	John Widtsoe	Improvement Era 46:769; cf. Evidences and Reconciliations, p. 56
March 22, 1949	Milton R. Hunter	Provo Herald
1953	Rodney Turner	M.A. thesis, Brigham Young University
1954	Joseph Fielding Smith	Doctrines of Salvation 1:96
1958	Bruce R. McConkie	Mormon Doctrine, 1st ed., pp. 17-18
April 10, 1965	Joseph Fielding Smith	"Marriage And Family Are To Be Forever", The Deseret News [Church News]
April 29, 1966	Reed C. Durham, Jr.	Undetermined
May 11, 1966	LeGrand Richards	Letter
1966	Joseph Fielding Smith	Answers to Gospel Questions, vol. 5
October, 1976	Spencer W. Kimball	"Adam-God Theory Denounced," LDS Church News
1976	Mark E. Peterson	Undetermined
1978	Elden Watson	Undetermined
1979	Mark E. Peterson	Adam: Who Is He? [1979], pp. 16-17
June 1, 1980	Bruce McConkie	BYU Speech
December, 1980	Mark E. Peterson	Ensign, November 1980
February 19, 1981	Bruce McConkie	Private correspondence
1985	Bruce McConkie	New Witness for the Articles of Faith, ch. 12
1998	Stephen E. Robinson	Are Mormons Christian?
January 21, 2002	Gordon B. Hinckley	The New Yorker
April 23, 2006	Robert L. Millet	Public dialog between Robert Millet and Greg Johnson held at Mt. Olympus Presbyterian
May 25, 2006	Blake Ostler	Blog comment
August 7, 2009	Matthew B. Brown	Paper presented at the 2009 FAIR Conference, Sandy, Utah.

Further reading​

Mainstream LDS​

• The Position of Adam in Latter-Day Saints Scripture and Theology, by Rodney Turner - "A thesis submitted to the faculty of the division of religion of Brigham Young University in partial fulfillment of the requirements for the degree of the master of arts"
• Brigham Young's Teachings on Adam (PDF), by Matthew B. Brown (2009 FAIR presentation)
• Adam-God's Last Stand, by W. John Walsh
• What About the Adam-God Theory?, by Van Hale (fringe Mormon)
• Bruce McConkie's Letter of Rebuke to Professor Eugene England
• Can Anyone Articulate Adam-God?, by Sam MB (ByCommonConsent.com)
• Adam-God: Thoughts and Reconciliations (PDF), by Nathan Oman
• Six Reactions to the Adam-God Theory, by Brian C. Hales
• Fundamental Teachings About Adam - The First Man, by Brian C. Hales
• Different Thoughts - Adam-God, by Elden Watson

Other​

• Conflict in the Quorum: Orson Pratt, Brigham Young, Joseph Smith, by Gary James Bergera (Signature Books, 2002)
• The Adam-God Doctrine (PDF), by David John Buerger - From Dialogue, volume 15, number 1, Spring 1982.
• "Adam-God" - Brigham Young's Theory or Divine Doctrine?, by Bill McKeever (Mormonism Research Ministry)
• The Adam-God Doctrine, by Jerald and Sandra Tanner
• Another botched joke?, by Bill McKeever
• Adam-God doctrine (Wikipedia)
• Adam-God Doctrine (MormonThink)

 

[The Learner]

Joseph Smith's Changing Doctrine of Deity

If you have ever compared the two creation accounts in the Pearl of Great Price you may have noticed the dramatic difference in the way they speak about Deity. The creation story in the Book of Moses chapters 2-3 speaks repeatedly of one God who "created" the heavens and earth.

mit.irr.org

Smith changed his teachings, with no explanation to the Mormon people

if the Joseph Smith really had restored the

christiandefense.org

 

[The Learner]

"Since the time of the First Vision people have raised this question, and they continue to raise it and will do so for so long as they believe in the God of their tradition, while we bear testimony of the God of modern revelation. ... We do not accept the Athanasian Creed. We do not accept the Nicene Creed, nor any other creed based on tradition and the conclusions of men. ...We do accept, as the basis of our doctrine, the statement of the Prophet Joseph Smith that when he prayed for wisdom in the woods, 'the light rested upon me [and] I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is my Beloved Son. Hear Him!' (Joseph Smith—History 1:17).

1830

Book of Mormon — teaches Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one God (i.e. 2 Nephi 31:21; Mormon 7:7; Mosiah 15:1-5; 3 Nephi 11:27)*

Father and Son are same person (i.e. Ether 3:14)

Title Page: "...to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the ETERNAL GOD, manifesting himself unto all nations."

God is a spirit (Alma 18:26-28; 22:8-11), no teaching that Father has a physical body.

Modalism — The Book of Mormon teaches three modes or expressions of one god.**

Book of Moses — Creation story — God and Christ


1832

Smith's first draft of his history. Only Jesus was mentioned as appearing. (See The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, compiled by Dean Jessee, Deseret Book, 2002, pp. 11 and 17. Also in An American Prophet's Record, edited by Scott Faulring, Signature Books, 1989, p. 5 and Early Mormon Documents, Vol. 1.)
Written in Joseph Smith's own hand. (Go to Joseph Smith's Handwritten 1832 First Vision)
Smith started serious study of the scriptures at age 12
Determined all churches were wrong
No mention of a revival
At age 15 (in his 16th year) he went into the grove and had a vision of the Saviour
His sins were forgiven. He reverted back to old ways
At age 17 he again prayed and an angel appeared telling him about the plates and announced he was forgiven of his sins.
Smith dictated Sec. 84 of the D.&C. stating that no man can see the face of God without the priesthood.

1834

Oliver Cowdery, with the help of Joseph Smith, published the first history of Mormonism in the LDS paper Messenger and Advocate, Kirtland, Ohio, Dec. 1834, Vol. 1, No. 3.
He began Smith's story with the angel vision in the bedroom in 1823. On page 42 Cowdery started the account when Smith was 14 (in his 15th year) telling of a revival in the area. He named Mr.Lane, of the Methodist Church, as participating in a great revival. Large additions were made to the Methodist, Presbyterian and Baptist churches. During this revival his mother, one sister and two brothers joined the Presbyterians.
On page 78 Cowdery corrected Smith's age, stating Smith would have been in his 17th year (16) not his 15th year (14) and placed the date at "1823."
During this religious excitement Smith prayed to know "if a Supreme being did exist, to have an assurance that he was accepted of him."
His prayer was answered on Sept. 21, 1823, when a "messenger" appeared to him in his bedroom "to deliver a special message, and to witness to him that his sins were forgiven, and that his prayers were heard;..."
There was no mention in Cowdery's history of a vision prior to the angel coming to Smith's bedroom.

1835

Doctrine and Covenants — Lectures on Faith, lecture 5 — God is not described as having a physical body. "The Father being a personage of spirit,...The Son,...a personage of tabernacle."
Binitarian view** Two in godhead, Holy Spirit is mind of God.
Joseph related his first vision to two different men. Both accounts relate seeing angels but not God or Jesus.
1. The Nov. 9, 1835 Account (Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, pp. 75-76, 1984 ed., p. 105 in the 2002 edition. Also in An American Prophet's Record, p. 51. This account appeared in the serial printing of Smith's history in the Millennial Star, Vol. 15, p. 396. However, this account has been deleted from the History of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 304.)
Smith related his story to a Jewish minister
He didn't know which church was teaching the truth
No mention of a revival
He went into the grove to pray
Two personages appeared—the second one "testified unto me that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
He "saw many angels in this vision"
At age 17 he "saw another vision of angels"—one told him about the plates
The Nov.14, 1835 Account (Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, p. 84, also An American Prophet's Record, p. 59) Smith related his story to Erastus Holmes:
"...I received the first visitation of Angels which was when I was about 14 years old..."
Later received the vision regarding the plates
This same account was later printed in the Deseret News, May 29, 1852. This entry has been changed in the History of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 312. It now reads "my first vision" instead of "visitation of angels."
Various articles that attacked Joseph Smith's claims never raised the issue of the first vision or that he claimed to see God. "Campbell and others before 1835 objected principally to claims of authority, modern revelation, miracles, and communitarianism but not to the doctrines of God and man." (Sunstone, July/Aug. 1980, p. 27)
Smith began studying Hebrew. This eventually impacted his teaching on Elohim and plural gods.***

1837

Changes relating to the godhead were made in the second edition of the Book of Mormon. The phrase "the son of " was added to several verses to distinguish between the Father and Son. (i.e. 1 Nephi 11:18, 21, 32 and 1 Nephi 13:40)

1838

Joseph started working on his history but it wasn't published until 1842.

1840

Orson Pratt published A Interesting Account of Several Remarkable Visions, Scotland, 1840. He related that when Smith was "about fourteen or fifteen years old" he was praying in the woods when "two glorious personages" appeared. But they were not specifically identified as the Father and Son.

1842

The letter to John Wentworth, March 1, 1842 Account (Personal Writings, p. 213). Also printed in Times and Seasons, Nauvoo, Ill., March 1, 1842, Vol. 3, No. 9, pp. 706-710.
At about 14 Smith started wondering which church was right.
Went into the grove to pray.
"Two glorious personages" appeared and informed him that none of the churches "was acknowledged of God."
He was told not to join any of them but wait for further revelation.
In 1823 an angel appeared to tell him about the plates
Smith published his 1838-39 account in the Times and Seasons, Nauvoo, Ill., March 15, 1842, Vol. 3, No. 10, pp. 727-728; pp. 748-749; pp. 753.
When he was in his 15th year (age 14) his mother, sister, and two brothers joined the Presbyterian Church due to a revival in the neighborhood. The revival started with the Methodists and soon spread to the Presbyterians and Baptists.
Joseph went into the grove to ask God which church to join "for at this time it had never entered my heart that all were wrong." Two beings appeared. One spoke, pointed to the other being and said "This is my beloved Son, hear him."
He was told to join none of the churches "for they were all wrong...all their creeds were an abomination in his sight;..."
On Sept. 21st, 1823 he again prayed and the angel "Nephi" appeared to him to tell him of the plates ("Nephi" was later changed to "Moroni" in the History of the Church, Vol. 1, p. 11).
Joseph wrote a prayer in 1842 referring to the Father as Jehovah and Elohim.**
Current Mormonism teaches that Jehovah is Christ and Elohim is the Father.
Tritheism—belief in three gods.**
Smith printed the Book of Abraham in the Times and Seasons. The creation story is told as the work of a council of gods.

1843

Smith dictated section 130 of the Doctrine and Covenants, which taught that God and Jesus both have bodies but not the Holy Ghost.
If Joseph Smith had actually been teaching since 1820 that God had a body why did he need this revelation?
Smith's temple ritual was introduced. Elohim, Jehovah and Michael were depicted as creators. But these terms were not necessarily interpreted the same as Mormonism uses them today.***

1844

First Vision Article

 

[The Learner]

Joseph Smith's Handwritten 1832 First Vision

http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/pdfnewsletters/134saltlakecitymessenger.pdf

First Vision Article

Utah Lighthouse Ministry: Online Resources

An Address to All Believers in the Book of Mormon

 

[Jane_Doe22]

thank you for being frank

I Have a Question

I Have a Question

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

I'm going be very frank here, which regrettably is going to be less polite.

Actual LDS Christian beliefs and what anti-Mormons will tell you "what Mormons believe" are two entirely different things. @The Learner, the sources you've been spamming here are the latter: grotesquely inaccurate spins removed from reality. Like Satan himself they quote and twist, be are devoid of truth. Such is a poison to you and everyone else, perverting everything. No Christian has to misrepresent what another person believes. I'm spending my time to type of responses in my own words, and won't respond to mindless copy and paste. If you have a question (which is great!), please use your own thoughts and words for it.

My next big post will be talking about Christ.

 

[The Learner]

The idea that we become like God is Biblical, hence the provided verses. If you want some BOM specific references, here you go:

3 Nephi. 12:48: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father. (This section is the BOM's Christ teaching the Sermon on the Mount)

3 Nephi 27:27 And know ye that ye shall be judges of this people, according to the judgment which I shall give unto you, which shall be just. Therefore, what manner of men ought ye to be? Verily I say unto you, even as I am.

3 Nephi 28:10 And for this cause ye shall have fullness of joy; and ye shall sit down in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, even as the Father hath given me fulness of joy; and ye shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father; and the Father and I are one

None of those look like someone becoming a physical god.

 

[The Learner]

Becoming like God (the LDS Christian belief) is about that: learning and reflecting His knowledge, character, etc. It's not about gaining superpowers.

2 Peter 1

Easy-to-Read Version

​

1 Greetings from Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ.
To all of you who share in the same valuable faith that we have. This faith was given to us because our God and Savior Jesus Christ always does what is good and right.
2 Grace and peace be given to you more and more, because now you know God and Jesus our Lord.

God Has Given Us Everything We Need​

3 Jesus has the power of God. And his power has given us everything we need to live a life devoted to God. We have these things because we know him. Jesus chose us by his glory and goodness, 4 through which he also gave us the very great and rich gifts that he promised us. With these gifts you can share in being like God. And so you will escape the ruin that comes to people in the world because of the evil things they want.
5 Because you have these blessings, do all you can to add to your life these things: to your faith add goodness; to your goodness add knowledge; 6 to your knowledge add self-control; to your self-control add patience; to your patience add devotion to God; 7 to your devotion add kindness toward your brothers and sisters in Christ, and to this kindness add love. 8 If all these things are in you and growing, you will never fail to be useful to God. You will produce the kind of fruit that should come from your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But those who don’t grow in these blessings are blind. They cannot see clearly what they have. They have forgotten that they were cleansed from their past sins.
10 My brothers and sisters, God called you and chose you to be his. Do your best to live in a way that shows you really are God’s called and chosen people. If you do all this, you will never fall. 11 And you will be given a very great welcome into the kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, a kingdom that never ends.
12 You already know these things. You are very strong in the truth you have. But I am always going to help you remember them. 13 While I am still living here on earth, I think it is right for me to remind you of them. 14 I know that I must soon leave this body. Our Lord Jesus Christ has shown me that. 15 I will try my best to make sure you remember these things even after I am gone.

We Saw Christ’s Glory​

16 We told you about the power of our Lord Jesus Christ. We told you about his coming. The things we told you were not just clever stories that people invented. No, we saw the greatness of Jesus with our own eyes. 17 Jesus heard the voice of the great and glorious God. That was when he received honor and glory from God the Father. The voice said, “This is my Son, the one I love. I am very pleased with him.” 18 And we heard that voice. It came from heaven while we were with Jesus on the holy mountain.[a]
19 This makes us more sure about what the prophets said. And it is good for you to follow closely what they said, which is like a light shining in a dark place. You have that light until the day begins and the morning star brings new light to your minds. 20 Most important of all, you must understand this: No prophecy in the Scriptures comes from the prophet’s own understanding. 21 No prophecy ever came from what some person wanted to say. But people were led by the Holy Spirit and spoke words from God.

Footnotes​

1. 2 Peter 1:18 This event is described in the Gospels. See Mt. 17:1-8; Mk. 9:2-8; Lk. 9:28-36.

Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

 

[Wrangler]

What techniques to convert do I support?

I support the truth.

I’ll say good bye to this thread now.

 

[The Learner]

Again, passionately disagree. And quoting is not the same as being truthful or understanding-- remember, even the devil can quote scripture.

They are human, not Satan They simply publish LDS materials

 

[Jane_Doe22]

They are human, not Satan They simply publish LDS materials

No Christian has need to misrepresent another person or what they believe. They are untruthful.

(Edditted out very not politeness here)

 

[The Learner]

@The Learner , you're copy-pasting a lot of stuff, which makes it hard for me to sort through what's quotes versus your actual thoughts/questions. Could you narrow things down for me?

Take your time friends, their is no rush. I post for information to all.

 

[The Learner]

*sigh and shake my head*.
Let me know when you want to talk about Christ and Truth.

I have slowed down

 

[Raccoon1010]

I’ll say good bye to this thread now.

OK, after I did all that work to come up with that material for you to use. That's it? Yeah I guess I was already done with the thread too, but you asked for the material.

 

[The Learner]

This guy has made some very good videos on Joseph Smith.

https://www.youtube.com/@danvogel6802/videos

well worth watching

thanks for the source

 

[The Learner]

Note: Joseph Smith ain't anyone's Savior. Christ is MY Savior (+yours too). I'm here to follow the Son of God and talk about Him.

One thing I notice about "anti" folks, whether they be anti-Mormon or anti-Catholic, or whatever is that why don't focus on Christ & folks relationships with Him. They'd rather talk about how Joseph Smith was a sinner (obvious fact) or the pope, or whatever their pet topic is. But always skipping over Christ and love of Him.

When it comes to LDS teachings Jesus is not the only subject.

Who do you say he is? Was he a spirit baby, brother of satan? or what?
What are the attributes of G_d in LDS theology? Let's when there is time compare G_d of the Bible with LDS god?

 

[The Learner]

Before we go and argue whether or not the Bible ex nihilo, first can you acknowledge my relationship with Christ?

Call it PTSD (because it is), but I've been through too many conversations where the person just argues their small pet points and totally skips talking about Christ and saving relationship with Him (which is the big point).

I believe you do have a relationship with a Jesus, not sure which one.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

When it comes to LDS teachings Jesus is not the only subject.

Who do you say he is? Was he a spirit baby, brother of satan? or what?
What are the attributes of G_d in LDS theology? Let's when there is time compare G_d of the Bible with LDS god?

About the "Mormon" Jesus: Jesus Christ is the only Begotten 100% divine Son of God. He has always existed. He created this world, was born of the virgin Mary and lived a perfect mortal life without a single blemish. A deeply wonderful example and teacher. At age 33 He was tortured for each of our sins and died on a cross. On the third day He was resurrected, being the first fruits of the grave. Through His great sacrifice, we can all be resurrected and saved.

In regards to Son's relationship with the Father, well God the Father is Christ's Father. He, the Father, and the Spirit are 1 God, in 3 different divine persons. For example, when Christ was baptized, the person Christ was being baptized (obviously), the person the Father said "This is my beloved son", and the person of the Spirit descended like a dove.

On to actual differences between LDS Christian beliefs and the Athanasian Creed (written 500 AD) is *how* these 3 divine persons are 1 God. LDS Christians believe through unity (John 17), the Athanasian Creed through a shared substance (this is philosophical conclusion, not directly stated in the Bible). That is indeed a difference, and I'm not going to remotely minimize it. I do passionately disagree with the Athanasian Creed in this regard and find it greatly in error. But I'm also not going to kick in the door of every Athanasian Creed believer and go "you must repent of your different Jesus less you be burned in Hell!!!!". Such is ridiculous-- yes, I find that doctrine to be a major error, but that doesn't mean those people don't love Christ, I can see clearly with my eyes that they do. And while theology is super important, man is not saved by his ability to ace a theology test on metaphysics.

Was he a spirit baby, brother of satan? or what?

Jesus Christ has always existed and always been God.

The "brother of satan" is not how any LDS Christian thinks about it (contrary to the anti-mormon lies commonly told). Jesus Christ is the only Begotten, perfect follower of the Father, Son of God. Lucifer/Satan is the exact opposite: flat out rebelled and was cast out. The Father is indeed the Father of everyone (true for both LDS Christians and non). That doesn't change the choices people make.

What are the attributes of G_d in LDS theology?

Ever loving, perfectly just, merciful, all knowing, everlasting to everlasting, all powerful, etc.

 

[The Learner]

The FATHER has a flesh body?

Do you believe this?

I believe G_d is Spirit, not a physical being. JS in one of his first vision accounts sees the Father as having flesh and bone. He teaches that his god was once a man who was promoted to a god. This god has sex with a wife god and has spirit babies. Problem is LDS god is violating the law of procreation --- dogs give birth to pupplies, Humans to Humans, gods to gods, Not gods to spirit babies.

Hi David, I have been posting Latter Day Saint's materials to show what they really believe. One problem I noticed when talking with their missionaries, they try to condiction people to think that feeling good makes what they say is Truth. Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers in pre-existence from the same Father god. I am only stating what is in LDS teachings.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I believe G_d is Spirit, not a physical being. JS in one of his first vision accounts sees the Father as having flesh and bone. He teaches that his god was once a man who was promoted to a god. This god has sex with a wife god and has spirit babies. Problem is LDS god is violating the law of procreation --- dogs give birth to pupplies, Humans to Humans, gods to gods, Not gods to spirit babies.

Hi David, I have been posting Latter Day Saint's materials to show what they really believe. One problem I noticed when talking with their missionaries, they try to condiction people to think that feeling good makes what they say is Truth. Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers in pre-existence from the same Father god. I am only stating what is in LDS teachings.

This is terrible ly inaccurate. Please stop.

 

[The Learner]

I'm going be very frank here, which regrettably is going to be less polite.

Actual LDS Christian beliefs and what anti-Mormons will tell you "what Mormons believe" are two entirely different things. @The Learner, the sources you've been spamming here are the latter: grotesquely inaccurate spins removed from reality. Like Satan himself they quote and twist, be are devoid of truth. Such is a poison to you and everyone else, perverting everything. No Christian has to misrepresent what another person believes. I'm spending my time to type of responses in my own words, and won't respond to mindless copy and paste. If you have a question (which is great!), please use your own thoughts and words for it.

My next big post will be talking about Christ.

Which one? I also, been posting many offical LDS sources too. Follow the Adam god links to see how LDS theology has evolved in that area.