Protestant Apostasy Pending?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

tom55

Love your neighbor as yourself
Sep 9, 2013
1,199
18
0
Stranger said:
Where did I say if one belongs to a denominational church they are apostate?

Where did I say that if believers 'feel' like the Holy Spirit is guiding them then they are not apostate?

You misrepresent what I have said.

If I have to explain to you what being 'born-again' means, that tells me all I need to know. See (John 3:10) as a start.

Why wouldn't it be the Holy Spirit that is guiding me? Scriptures tell me I as a believer have the Holy Spirit. Don't they? Please answer. A false teacher is not hard to spot when you know the Scriptures. The Holy Spirit will not lead you into contradiction of the Scriptures.

Plus, are you saying you are not aware of the 'spirit' that leads you? Are you saying you cannot make the distinction between a false or demonic spirit and the Holy Spirit in your life? Please answer,

Stranger
I would love to TRY to answer your question: Where did I say if one belongs to a denominational church they are apostate? by quoting YOU

“....Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, etc, over all have become apostate...”

Many Protestant churches are in an apostate condition....”.

If a believer belongs to a church which has a central authority.....when the central controlling authority goes amiss, then they go amiss with it.

Every group of Christians, no matter who they are, will experience apostasy as a group.”

But then you also say this: “Believers however can separate themselves from these apostate groups and form another church.”

[SIZE=10pt]AND THIS:[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] “The Church can still have elements of truth in it. But over time, yes, the church becomes apostate. [/SIZE]Every member of that church may not be in an apostate condition.

So according to YOUR very confusing THEORY which is based on YOUR STATEMEMENTS it seems you are saying that MOST churches are in an apostate condition; especially ones with a central authority.

BUT one can separate themselves from that apostate group/church and form another church and then they are no longer apostate.....even though that INDIVIDUAL may not have been an apostate inside the church that was a church in apostasies.

HOWEVER, as soon as that NEW church they have formed becomes apostate they must then remove themselves from that church (especially if that church has a central authority) and start another church so they won’t be apostate. HOPEFULLY, God willing, that new church won’t become apostate. But if that individual decides the church has become apostate.......here we go again.....we start ANOTHER church that isn’t apostate. Please God, don’t let this NEW church become apostate....I’m tired of starting new churches!!!

My question is: How does one know which church is apostate, who is apostate and how do I decide if I AM an apostate? If I am apostate I want to change my ways and start a church that is not apostate so I won’t be apostate? But if the church I am attending has a central authority and I personally don’t believe it is an apostate church but somebody tells me it is an apostate church because the Holy Spirit told them, who is right? Them OR me?
One thing you did say that I STRONGLY agree with: “....you and others who refuse to see the effort of satan in planting his seeds of lies among the truth, allow the lie to be established.
 

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
tom55 said:
I would love to TRY to answer your question: Where did I say if one belongs to a denominational church they are apostate? by quoting YOU

“....Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, etc, over all have become apostate...”

Many Protestant churches are in an apostate condition....”.

If a believer belongs to a church which has a central authority.....when the central controlling authority goes amiss, then they go amiss with it.

Every group of Christians, no matter who they are, will experience apostasy as a group.”

But then you also say this: “Believers however can separate themselves from these apostate groups and form another church.”

[SIZE=10pt]AND THIS:[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] “The Church can still have elements of truth in it. But over time, yes, the church becomes apostate. [/SIZE]Every member of that church may not be in an apostate condition.

So according to YOUR very confusing THEORY which is based on YOUR STATEMEMENTS it seems you are saying that MOST churches are in an apostate condition; especially ones with a central authority.

BUT one can separate themselves from that apostate group/church and form another church and then they are no longer apostate.....even though that INDIVIDUAL may not have been an apostate inside the church that was a church in apostasies.

HOWEVER, as soon as that NEW church they have formed becomes apostate they must then remove themselves from that church (especially if that church has a central authority) and start another church so they won’t be apostate. HOPEFULLY, God willing, that new church won’t become apostate. But if that individual decides the church has become apostate.......here we go again.....we start ANOTHER church that isn’t apostate. Please God, don’t let this NEW church become apostate....I’m tired of starting new churches!!!

My question is: How does one know which church is apostate, who is apostate and how do I decide if I AM an apostate? If I am apostate I want to change my ways and start a church that is not apostate so I won’t be apostate? But if the church I am attending has a central authority and I personally don’t believe it is an apostate church but somebody tells me it is an apostate church because the Holy Spirit told them, who is right? Them OR me?
One thing you did say that I STRONGLY agree with: “....you and others who refuse to see the effort of satan in planting his seeds of lies among the truth, allow the lie to be established.
No, you wouldn't love to answer my question. The answer is easy. You simply pick certain phrases of what I said instead of the whole sentence. Why? Some call it 'not paying attention to context'. Some call it 'cherry picking'. Some call it 'deceptive and lying'. I don't know which it is, but some do call it that.

No, I answer your questions. You hoop and hollar if you feel I haven't. You answer my last four questions. Then I might answer yours.

Stranger
 

tom55

Love your neighbor as yourself
Sep 9, 2013
1,199
18
0
Stranger said:
No, you wouldn't love to answer my question. The answer is easy. You simply pick certain phrases of what I said instead of the whole sentence. Why? Some call it 'not paying attention to context'. Some call it 'cherry picking'. Some call it 'deceptive and lying'. I don't know which it is, but some do call it that.

No, I answer your questions. You hoop and hollar if you feel I haven't. You answer my last four questions. Then I might answer yours.

Stranger
[SIZE=10pt]My response/post was an answer to your FIRST question.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]You have been unable to articulate a logical response.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]I take your answer to be, ‘I have no logical response so instead I will go on the attack’.[/SIZE]
 

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
tom55 said:
[SIZE=10pt]My response/post was an answer to your FIRST question.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]You have been unable to articulate a logical response.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]I take your answer to be, ‘I have no logical response so instead I will go on the attack’.[/SIZE]
Take it however you like.

There are four questions you have not answered. Your so called 'attack' isn't worth much if you refuse.

Stranger
 

epostle1

Well-Known Member
Sep 24, 2012
3,326
507
113
72
Essex
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Stranger said:
Take it however you like.

There are four questions you have not answered. Your so called 'attack' isn't worth much if you refuse.

Stranger
They have been answered. I notice you haven't answered any of mine in post #80. Nevertheless, if you can justify belonging to a non-denominational denomination, and it works for you, fine. But you have no basis to accuse the CC of apostasy. That kind of nonsense has to do with false information, bigotry and blind prejudice. Mormons and JW's say the same thing.
It always boils down to who has authority, doesn't it?

Where in scripture does the Holy Spirit permit formation of churches apart from the historic Church Jesus founded? Chapter and verse, please. If you have no church authority, on what grounds do you determine apostasy?
Where in the Bible is the Bible ever pitted against the Church? Chapter and verse, please.
Every heretic in the world went by "Bible alone" and claimed to have the Holy Spirit. The Arians and Nestorians for starters. It's a long list. Taking a quantum leap to the post-enlightenmet era, cults were formed by Protestant pastors all claiming the Holy Spirit guiding them, so claiming you are guided by the HS either collectively or individually, is not a safe thing to do without an authoritive structure, which is contrary to non-denominational theology.

Do you have slaves serve the refreshments at the end of the meeting?
 

tom55

Love your neighbor as yourself
Sep 9, 2013
1,199
18
0
Stranger said:
Take it however you like.

There are four questions you have not answered. Your so called 'attack' isn't worth much if you refuse.

Stranger
I am working on one question at a time. I QUOTED you and used your own words to show how your theory makes no sense and goes in circles.

Here is Your theory in a nutshell: If I am in an apostate church I should leave that church and start another church. If that church becomes apostate, which probably will happen eventually, I should leave that church and go to another church OR start another church. If that new church ends up with a 'central authority' it is probably apostate so I must leave it and start ANOTHER church. I might belong to an apostate church but that doesn't necessarily make me an apostate. I know I am not apostate because I have the Bible and the HS guiding me.

If I have misquoted you or i have not put your theory in proper context please show me how.

If I have not properly understood or articulated your "I have the HS and the Bible that's how I know I am right and everyone else is wrong" THEORY then please show me where I have gone wrong.
 

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
tom55 said:
I am working on one question at a time. I QUOTED you and used your own words to show how your theory makes no sense and goes in circles.

Here is Your theory in a nutshell: If I am in an apostate church I should leave that church and start another church. If that church becomes apostate, which probably will happen eventually, I should leave that church and go to another church OR start another church. If that new church ends up with a 'central authority' it is probably apostate so I must leave it and start ANOTHER church. I might belong to an apostate church but that doesn't necessarily make me an apostate. I know I am not apostate because I have the Bible and the HS guiding me.

If I have misquoted you or i have not put your theory in proper context please show me how.

If I have not properly understood or articulated your "I have the HS and the Bible that's how I know I am right and everyone else is wrong" THEORY then please show me where I have gone wrong.
Just answer the questions.

Stranger
 

epostle1

Well-Known Member
Sep 24, 2012
3,326
507
113
72
Essex
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Stranger said:
Just answer the questions.

Stranger
Your questions are spread out over the entire page. Please condense and re-post.
 

mjrhealth

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2009
11,810
4,090
113
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Holy Spirit permit formation of churches apart from the historic Church Jesus founde
Yes He didnt your church did, formed its own church seperate from His just like al teh protestant ones. Guess having no faith in catholism makes me apostate, cool. But than my faith is in Jesus so I certainly havnt left my faith.

Isa_30:1 Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:
 

mjrhealth

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2009
11,810
4,090
113
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Where in the Bible is the Bible ever pitted against the Church?
But you have this problem

Act 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.

Still you persecute Christ just as Saul did.
 

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
tom55 said:
Which question would that be?
As if you didn't know. See my post #76. Now, as you are so want to say...answer my questions.

Stranger
 

tom55

Love your neighbor as yourself
Sep 9, 2013
1,199
18
0
Stranger said:
As if you didn't know. See my post #76. Now, as you are so want to say...answer my questions.

Stranger
If I knew....I wouldn't have asked. <_<

[SIZE=13.5pt]I did NOT accuse you of saying[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]if one belongs to a denominational church they are apostate”.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt] I asked you:[/SIZE] If one belongs to a denominational church they are apostate? If they meet in their basement, read the bible, feel like the Holy Spirit is guiding them then they are not apostate? [SIZE=14pt]Notice the question marks at the end!![/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]I did NOT accuse you of saying “ if believers 'feel' like the Holy Spirit is guiding them then they are not apostate? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]What I asked was:[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] ….how do you KNOW you have the Holy Spirit guiding you? [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Notice the question marks at the end!![/SIZE]


[SIZE=14pt]So can I FINALLY get an answer??[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt] :([/SIZE]
 

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
tom55 said:
If I knew....I wouldn't have asked. <_<

[SIZE=13.5pt]I did NOT accuse you of saying[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]if one belongs to a denominational church they are apostate”.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt] I asked you:[/SIZE] If one belongs to a denominational church they are apostate? If they meet in their basement, read the bible, feel like the Holy Spirit is guiding them then they are not apostate? [SIZE=14pt]Notice the question marks at the end!![/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]I did NOT accuse you of saying “ if believers 'feel' like the Holy Spirit is guiding them then they are not apostate? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]What I asked was:[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] ….how do you KNOW you have the Holy Spirit guiding you? [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Notice the question marks at the end!![/SIZE]


[SIZE=14pt]So can I FINALLY get an answer??[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt] :([/SIZE]
Please. Just answer my questions.

Stranger
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
"duelling questions," guys? You might first see that you do not know, and abandon the premises that you are so convinced of--even that counterfeit worship of Christ on a pole, Nehushtan. Then the possible--which is "all things"--can manifest. Which it cannot, as long as you know, something that most likely is not even true, as the Book tells us.
 

tom55

Love your neighbor as yourself
Sep 9, 2013
1,199
18
0
Stranger said:
Please. Just answer my questions.

Stranger
[SIZE=9pt]Your question from post #76:[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt] Why wouldn't it be the Holy Spirit that is guiding me?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]I have never argued with you that it could be the Holy Spirit. I have simply ASKED you (and you have not answered) how do you KNOW it is the Holy Spirit guiding you? How do you know it is not SATAN that has planted his seed in your group?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]This question is based on your THEORY that you articulated in post #32: [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Every group of Christians, no matter who they are[/SIZE], will experience apostasy as a group. Because over time, Satan will plant his seeds within that group and they will come to fruition. He is right there next to you...and you didn't see him.

[SIZE=9pt]Maybe SATAN is right there next to YOU…..and you just can’t see him??? Why does your theory pertain to everyone else and not you?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]Your other question from Post #76:[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt] Scriptures tell me I as a believer have the Holy Spirit. Don't they? Please answer. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]Yes, a TRUE believer has the Holy Spirit in them. But as I pointed out before [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]how do you KNOW[/SIZE] you have the Holy Spirit guiding you? Every preacher who starts a bible study in his basement (Fred Phelps, David Koresh, Jim Jones) thinks they have the Holy Spirit guiding them and Satan planted his seed in those groups. How do you KNOW Satan hasn’t planted his seed within your group???

[SIZE=9pt]Another question from Post #76:[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt] A false teacher is not hard to spot when you know the Scriptures. The Holy Spirit will not lead you into contradiction of the Scriptures. Plus, are you saying you are not aware of the 'spirit' that leads you? Are you saying you cannot make the distinction between a false or demonic spirit and the Holy Spirit in your life? Please answer,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]The RCC, Baptist church, Methodist, Lutherans, Calvin, Luther, Zwingli, Mohamed, Joseph Smith, etc. etc all believed they can spot a “false teacher” and that they KNOW scripture. They all believe the Holy Spirit and scripture led them to The Truth. What makes you so special??[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]YOU [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]are the one who made the statement that Satan will plant his seeds within a Christian group and that Satan will be right there next to them and they won’t even see him. That is your theory, not mine! How do you know Satan hasn’t planted his seed in you already??[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]I believe in The Church that Jesus established. [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]The Church[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt] that the gates of hell[/SIZE] shall not prevail against. The Church that is the pillar and foundation of TRUTH. JUST LIKE SCRIPTURE SAYS.

[SIZE=9pt]You believe in…..YOU…….[/SIZE]and YOUR interpretation of Scripture!! You believe the gates of hell will not prevail against YOU and that YOU are the pillar and foundation of truth. 2 Peter 3:16
 

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
tom55 said:
[SIZE=9pt]Your question from post #76:[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt] Why wouldn't it be the Holy Spirit that is guiding me?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]I have never argued with you that it could be the Holy Spirit. I have simply ASKED you (and you have not answered) how do you KNOW it is the Holy Spirit guiding you? How do you know it is not SATAN that has planted his seed in your group?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]This question is based on your THEORY that you articulated in post #32: [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Every group of Christians, no matter who they are[/SIZE], will experience apostasy as a group. Because over time, Satan will plant his seeds within that group and they will come to fruition. He is right there next to you...and you didn't see him.

[SIZE=9pt]Maybe SATAN is right there next to YOU…..and you just can’t see him??? Why does your theory pertain to everyone else and not you?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]Your other question from Post #76:[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt] Scriptures tell me I as a believer have the Holy Spirit. Don't they? Please answer. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]Yes, a TRUE believer has the Holy Spirit in them. But as I pointed out before [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]how do you KNOW[/SIZE] you have the Holy Spirit guiding you? Every preacher who starts a bible study in his basement (Fred Phelps, David Koresh, Jim Jones) thinks they have the Holy Spirit guiding them and Satan planted his seed in those groups. How do you KNOW Satan hasn’t planted his seed within your group???

[SIZE=9pt]Another question from Post #76:[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt] A false teacher is not hard to spot when you know the Scriptures. The Holy Spirit will not lead you into contradiction of the Scriptures. Plus, are you saying you are not aware of the 'spirit' that leads you? Are you saying you cannot make the distinction between a false or demonic spirit and the Holy Spirit in your life? Please answer,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]The RCC, Baptist church, Methodist, Lutherans, Calvin, Luther, Zwingli, Mohamed, Joseph Smith, etc. etc all believed they can spot a “false teacher” and that they KNOW scripture. They all believe the Holy Spirit and scripture led them to The Truth. What makes you so special??[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]YOU [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]are the one who made the statement that Satan will plant his seeds within a Christian group and that Satan will be right there next to them and they won’t even see him. That is your theory, not mine! How do you know Satan hasn’t planted his seed in you already??[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]I believe in The Church that Jesus established. [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]The Church[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt] that the gates of hell[/SIZE] shall not prevail against. The Church that is the pillar and foundation of TRUTH. JUST LIKE SCRIPTURE SAYS.

[SIZE=9pt]You believe in…..YOU…….[/SIZE]and YOUR interpretation of Scripture!! You believe the gates of hell will not prevail against YOU and that YOU are the pillar and foundation of truth. 2 Peter 3:16
Then you don't know if it is the Holy Spirit that is guiding me? I know the difference between a demonic spirit and the Holy Spirit. Do you? I don't believe a 'theory'. And if what I believe is truly wrong then the Holy Spirit in other believers, can so recognize, and reject what I say. Where did Koresh and Jones say the Holy Spirit was guiding them? What they said made it easy to see they were not of God.

Nice try. You didn't answer my last two questions. Instead you try and consolidate them into one, and then don't answer it. So again, are you saying you are not aware of the Spirit that leads you? And, are you saying you cannot make the distinction between a false or demonic spirit and the Holy Spirit in your life? Please answer.

Stranger
 

tom55

Love your neighbor as yourself
Sep 9, 2013
1,199
18
0
Stranger said:
Then you don't know if it is the Holy Spirit that is guiding me? I know the difference between a demonic spirit and the Holy Spirit. Do you? I don't believe a 'theory'. And if what I believe is truly wrong then the Holy Spirit in other believers, can so recognize, and reject what I say. Where did Koresh and Jones say the Holy Spirit was guiding them? What they said made it easy to see they were not of God.

Nice try. You didn't answer my last two questions. Instead you try and consolidate them into one, and then don't answer it. So again, are you saying you are not aware of the Spirit that leads you? And, are you saying you cannot make the distinction between a false or demonic spirit and the Holy Spirit in your life? Please answer.

Stranger
Slow down cowboy. I answered your questions. Now answer mine. (you are really good about going on the attack instead of answering questions. I applaud you)

I agree with you. I don't know if the Holy Spirit is guiding you. And, according to your own theory, YOU DON'T KNOW if the Holy Spirit is guiding you. I agree with you that Satan will plant his seeds within a group and his seed will come to fruition. Satan is right there next to you...and you didn't see him. YOU can't see him right next to you.


I AGREE WITH YOU. I want to make it clear that we are not arguing with each other here. I am simply asking (and you have not answered):

How do you know Satan hasn’t planted his seed in you already??
Why does your theory pertain to everyone else and not you??

Thank you!! Love.....Tom
 

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
tom55 said:
Slow down cowboy. I answered your questions. Now answer mine. (you are really good about going on the attack instead of answering questions. I applaud you)

I agree with you. I don't know if the Holy Spirit is guiding you. And, according to your own theory, YOU DON'T KNOW if the Holy Spirit is guiding you. I agree with you that Satan will plant his seeds within a group and his seed will come to fruition. Satan is right there next to you...and you didn't see him. YOU can't see him right next to you.


I AGREE WITH YOU. I want to make it clear that we are not arguing with each other here. I am simply asking (and you have not answered):

How do you know Satan hasn’t planted his seed in you already??
Why does your theory pertain to everyone else and not you??

Thank you!! Love.....Tom
No, you didn't answer mine. You left two unanswered.

No, I know if the Holy Spirit is guiding me or not. As I said, I know the difference. Do you? Which you did not answer. Why?

No, you don't agree with me. How do you know Satan is next to me?

Again, you don't agree with me. And I certainly don't agree with you. I have already told you, I know the difference between a demonic spirit and the Holy Spirit.

Now, answer the last two questions of post #76.

Stranger
 

tom55

Love your neighbor as yourself
Sep 9, 2013
1,199
18
0
Stranger said:
No, you didn't answer mine. You left two unanswered.

No, I know if the Holy Spirit is guiding me or not. As I said, I know the difference. Do you? Which you did not answer. Why?

No, you don't agree with me. How do you know Satan is next to me?

Again, you don't agree with me. And I certainly don't agree with you. I have already told you, I know the difference between a demonic spirit and the Holy Spirit.

Now, answer the last two questions.

Stranger
I did answer your questions. You just don't like my answers. :)

Once again: How do you KNOW? (you still have not answered except to say I KNOW) I know that I, Tom55, am an elephant. Prove me wrong. That is basically what you are saying. I know it therefor it is true. That is not logical.

I don't know if Satan is next to you. THAT IS YOUR THEORY, not mine.

How do you KNOW Satan hasn’t planted his seed within your group??? (your theory, not mine)

It seems to me you are arguing against your own theory. Weird!!! :blink: