Psalm 110 disproves a literal thousand years.

[Marty fox]

Psalm 110 Of David.

A psalm.

1 The Lord says to my lord:

“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”

2 The Lord will extend your mighty scepter from Zion, saying,
“Rule in the midst of your enemies!”
3 Your troops will be willing
on your day of battle.
Arrayed in holy splendor,
your young men will come to you
like dew from the morning’s womb.

4 The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”

5 The Lord is at your right hand[c];
he will crush kings on the day of his wrath.
6 He will judge the nations, heaping up the dead
and crushing the rulers of the whole earth.
7 He will drink from a brook along the way,[d]
and so he will lift his head high.


Psalm 110 tells us that Jesus will sit at the right hand of the Father until the Father puts all of Jesus’ enemies under His

In Revelation chapter 20:7-10 satan carries out his final assault on the church after the thousand years and is then cast into the lake of fire.

Thus Psalm 110 teaches us that Jesus won’t leave the Fathers right hand until He crushes the kings of the earth’ cast satan into the lake of fire and then judges the nations as also shown in Revelation chapter 20.

 

[grafted branch]

Psalm 110 Of David.

A psalm.

1 The Lord says to my lord:

“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”

2 The Lord will extend your mighty scepter from Zion, saying,
“Rule in the midst of your enemies!”
3 Your troops will be willing
on your day of battle.
Arrayed in holy splendor,
your young men will come to you
like dew from the morning’s womb.

4 The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”

5 The Lord is at your right hand[c];
he will crush kings on the day of his wrath.
6 He will judge the nations, heaping up the dead
and crushing the rulers of the whole earth.
7 He will drink from a brook along the way,[d]
and so he will lift his head high.


Psalm 110 tells us that Jesus will sit at the right hand of the Father until the Father puts all of Jesus’ enemies under His

In Revelation chapter 20:7-10 satan carries out his final assault on the church after the thousand years and is then cast into the lake of fire.

Thus Psalm 110 teaches us that Jesus won’t leave the Fathers right hand until He crushes the kings of the earth’ cast satan into the lake of fire and then judges the nations as also shown in Revelation chapter 20.

Isaiah 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool.

From Psalm 110:1 Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

In Revelation 19:7 the bride has made herself ready.

Putting these verses together we could come to the conclusion that the earth becomes the enemy of Christ once the bride has made herself ready, and this is the time that Christ no longer remains seated at the right hand of God. This would also seem to fit with Revelation 19:11 where heaven opens and there is a white horse with a rider (Christ) that judges and makes war, and also Revelation 19:14 where the armies of heaven follow Him upon white horses. However there is 1 Corinthians 15:25-26 that has fit somewhere.

1 Corinthians 15:25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Christ reigns until he puts all enemies under His feet, it stands to reason then that those in Revelation 20:4 live and reign with Christ until the enemies are under His feet.

Ok, in Revelation 20:8-9 Satan is loosed and he gathers them to battle and they compass the camp of the saints. In Revelation 19:19 the beast, kings of the earth, and their armies gather to make war against Him that sat on the horse and His armies.
These two verses can’t be both referring to the same event if the reigning with Christ continues when Satan is loosed. If Christ gets up from the seated/reigning position to get on the horse and those in Revelation 19:19 gather to make war against Him that sat on the horse then the gathering takes place after the reigning.

Do you see the gathering in Revelation 19:19 being the same gathering in Revelation 20:8?

 

[Davidpt]

Christ reigns until he puts all enemies under His feet, it stands to reason then that those in Revelation 20:4 live and reign with Christ until the enemies are under His feet.

Both Amils and Premils already agree with that, the fact satan's little season and the great white throne judgment are all post the the thousand years.


The question then is, once Christ leaves heaven can He still be sitting on the right hand of God? Or is that only something He can do while in heaven? Keeping in mind, regardless where one thinks the great white throne judgment fits, it is meaning after He has left heaven. And that most of us agree Jesus is the one sitting on the white throne. Would He still be sitting on the right hand of God per Revelation 20:11-15? Keeping in mind as well, this--For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death--what you already brought up?


I'm not asking these questions because I myself don't have any answers, I'm asking these questions to show that even after He has left heaven, He is obviously still sitting on the right hand of God until death and hell have been cast into the LOF during the great white throne judgment. Which then means a thousand years can fit after the 2nd coming and that Psalm 110 hasn't proved one way or the other that the thousand years are not literal, that the thousand years can't fit after the 2nd coming. Only way it can't is if the great white throne judgment happens and conclude the very same day He returns.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Psalm 110 Of David.

A psalm.

1 The Lord says to my lord:

“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”

2 The Lord will extend your mighty scepter from Zion, saying,
“Rule in the midst of your enemies!”
3 Your troops will be willing
on your day of battle.
Arrayed in holy splendor,
your young men will come to you
like dew from the morning’s womb.

4 The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”

5 The Lord is at your right hand[c];
he will crush kings on the day of his wrath.
6 He will judge the nations, heaping up the dead
and crushing the rulers of the whole earth.
7 He will drink from a brook along the way,[d]
and so he will lift his head high.


Psalm 110 tells us that Jesus will sit at the right hand of the Father until the Father puts all of Jesus’ enemies under His

In Revelation chapter 20:7-10 satan carries out his final assault on the church after the thousand years and is then cast into the lake of fire.

Thus Psalm 110 teaches us that Jesus won’t leave the Fathers right hand until He crushes the kings of the earth’ cast satan into the lake of fire and then judges the nations as also shown in Revelation chapter 20.

As a Premill I might look at this differently. It's a legitimate point. However, if I'm to accept Rev 20 and the Millennium I would have to read this as Jesus remaining in heaven until all the forces of Antichrist are vanquished.

The Millennium is, I suppose, a time of peace when Jesus' enemies have been subdued. The fact Jesus' enemies rise again after the Millennium may not, then, be a contradiction. It depends on whether you assume there is a literal Millennium or not.

 

[grafted branch]

Both Amils and Premils already agree with that, the fact satan's little season and the great white throne judgment are all post the the thousand years.


The question then is, once Christ leaves heaven can He still be sitting on the right hand of God? Or is that only something He can do while in heaven? Keeping in mind, regardless where one thinks the great white throne judgment fits, it is meaning after He has left heaven. And that most of us agree Jesus is the one sitting on the white throne. Would He still be sitting on the right hand of God per Revelation 20:11-15? Keeping in mind as well, this--For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death--what you already brought up?


I'm not asking these questions because I myself don't have any answers, I'm asking these questions to show that even after He has left heaven, He is obviously still sitting on the right hand of God until death and hell have been cast into the LOF during the great white throne judgment. Which then means a thousand years can fit after the 2nd coming and that Psalm 110 hasn't proved one way or the other that the thousand years are not literal, that the thousand years can't fit after the 2nd coming. Only way it can't is if the great white throne judgment happens and conclude the very same day He returns.

I look at it this way, Christ reigns until his enemies are his footstool, with death being one of those enemies. Since death is disposed of at the GWT we can say this, Christ reigns and at some point his enemies become His footstool but they are not disposed of yet. Then after the enemy/footstool period of time we come to the GWT for the final disposition of those enemies.

We all agree that Christ reigns until his enemies are his footstool. The footstool is not the LOF, per Isaiah 66:1 the footstool is the earth. This implies that the earth/footstool becomes the enemy at some point prior to the GWT, which lines up with the bride making herself ready.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Psalm 110 Of David.

A psalm.

1 The Lord says to my lord:

“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”

2 The Lord will extend your mighty scepter from Zion, saying,
“Rule in the midst of your enemies!”
3 Your troops will be willing
on your day of battle.
Arrayed in holy splendor,
your young men will come to you
like dew from the morning’s womb.

4 The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”

5 The Lord is at your right hand[c];
he will crush kings on the day of his wrath.
6 He will judge the nations, heaping up the dead
and crushing the rulers of the whole earth.
7 He will drink from a brook along the way,[d]
and so he will lift his head high.


Psalm 110 tells us that Jesus will sit at the right hand of the Father until the Father puts all of Jesus’ enemies under His

In Revelation chapter 20:7-10 satan carries out his final assault on the church after the thousand years and is then cast into the lake of fire.

Thus Psalm 110 teaches us that Jesus won’t leave the Fathers right hand until He crushes the kings of the earth’ cast satan into the lake of fire and then judges the nations as also shown in Revelation chapter 20.

Dear Marty fox,
To begin, I want to point out that scripture is written in the spiritual language of Christ. In that language, Christ uses "spirit" words (John 6:63) which have meanings that are different from what man's wisdom teaches (1Cor 2:13). Christ then uses His "spirit" words (symbols) to teach us through parables, types and analogies. Christ teaches His truth in this manner to keep it concealed from everyone except His converted Elect - those who have been given ears that can hear and eyes that can see.

Because Christ teaches us in His spiritual language, the term "thousand years" does not mean literal time.

To help better understand the meaning of a Thousand Years, Peter says that it is like a "day":

2Pet 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The "day" that Peter is referencing is the Day of the Lord and is the subject of what Peter says in chapter 3. And like the Thousand Years, the Day of the Lord does not represent literal time either - both are spiritual symbols.

So what do the symbols "Day of the Lord" and the "Thousand Years" represent?

The Day of the Lord represents the judgment of Christ upon an individual. The primary purpose of that judgment is to destroy the "chaff" (carnality) of the person who is being judged. After that judgment is complete, the individual will be converted from being a child of the Devil to being a child of God.

In this age, Christ is only judging His Elect. However, the Elect's time of judgment is different from the judgment of the "lost" in the final age. For that reason, the Day of the Lord is said to be like a "Thousand Years" as it applies to the Elect

For the Elect, judgment falls on them immediately after they have received the Latter Rain of the Spirit (baptism of the Spirit). With this baptism, the Elect individual will be "born again" as a child of God. Since the child of God is not judged, the child will be gathered up to heaven (spiritually speaking, not literally) to dwell with Christ. Immediately after this new birth occurs, Christ and the new child of God will reign in judgment over the carnality of that same person. This is shown in Revelation chapter 19. Because the Elect are born again prior to judgment falling on them, they will not experience wrath during their time of judgment. Instead, they will reign with Christ for a thousand years during their own time of judgment. Then, in the final age, the Elect will reign a second time with Christ when the "lost" of that age are judged. For that reason, the Thousand Years are "twice told":

Ecc 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place? (the Lake of Fire for destruction)

After the Elect's "thousand years" (their judgment) is complete, the person will be converted. Rev 20:5 calls this full spiritual process of conversion the "First Resurrection". After the individual is converted, Satan will then be loosed for a short season to test the new child of God. This is shown in Rev 20:7-10. Christ "typed" this time of testing which the Elect will experience just after He completed His 40 days of fasting in the wilderness. It was at this time that Satan came to Christ and tempted Him. And just as Christ passed this time of testing, so will the converted Elect.

The book of Revelation is not about outward world events which happen at the literal end of this age. The book is teaching about the spiritual events which happen within the lives of each Elect person when the end of the ages come upon them.

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

For that reason, the book says that the Elect will "keep" the sayings of the prophecy:

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Since the Elect were being converted at the time John received the prophecy, the time was "at hand" for their fulfillment.

If a person does not accept that the time for the sayings of the book of Revelation was at hand at the time the book was written, they are never going to understand the spiritual teachings of the book.

And because these spiritual events will happen within the lives of all the Elect, the book says this about Christ's second coming:

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to COME; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne...

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to COME, the Almighty.

Rev 22:7 Behold, I COME QUICKLY: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Joe

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Psalm 110 Of David.

A psalm.

1 The Lord says to my lord:

“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”

2 The Lord will extend your mighty scepter from Zion, saying,
“Rule in the midst of your enemies!”
3 Your troops will be willing
on your day of battle.
Arrayed in holy splendor,
your young men will come to you
like dew from the morning’s womb.

4 The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”

5 The Lord is at your right hand[c];
he will crush kings on the day of his wrath.
6 He will judge the nations, heaping up the dead
and crushing the rulers of the whole earth.
7 He will drink from a brook along the way,[d]
and so he will lift his head high.


Psalm 110 tells us that Jesus will sit at the right hand of the Father until the Father puts all of Jesus’ enemies under His

In Revelation chapter 20:7-10 satan carries out his final assault on the church after the thousand years and is then cast into the lake of fire.

Thus Psalm 110 teaches us that Jesus won’t leave the Fathers right hand until He crushes the kings of the earth’ cast satan into the lake of fire and then judges the nations as also shown in Revelation chapter 20.

Doesn't mean there is no 1000 years at all. Sitti9ng at the right hand is far more than just a physical location. It was and means the position of favor. The person who sits on teh right hand of a king is the highest authority in the kingdom after the king. It doesn't mean they are glued to a charir.

 

[Marty fox]

Isaiah 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool.

From Psalm 110:1 Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

In Revelation 19:7 the bride has made herself ready.

Putting these verses together we could come to the conclusion that the earth becomes the enemy of Christ once the bride has made herself ready, and this is the time that Christ no longer remains seated at the right hand of God. This would also seem to fit with Revelation 19:11 where heaven opens and there is a white horse with a rider (Christ) that judges and makes war, and also Revelation 19:14 where the armies of heaven follow Him upon white horses. However there is 1 Corinthians 15:25-26 that has fit somewhere.

1 Corinthians 15:25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Christ reigns until he puts all enemies under His feet, it stands to reason then that those in Revelation 20:4 live and reign with Christ until the enemies are under His feet.

Ok, in Revelation 20:8-9 Satan is loosed and he gathers them to battle and they compass the camp of the saints. In Revelation 19:19 the beast, kings of the earth, and their armies gather to make war against Him that sat on the horse and His armies.
These two verses can’t be both referring to the same event if the reigning with Christ continues when Satan is loosed. If Christ gets up from the seated/reigning position to get on the horse and those in Revelation 19:19 gather to make war against Him that sat on the horse then the gathering takes place after the reigning.

Do you see the gathering in Revelation 19:19 being the same gathering in Revelation 20:8?

Hi and thanks for your reply.

I don't see them as the same event because I don't see Rev 19 as a literal event but symbolic for Jesus defeating all of His enemies over time. For example

1 What John sees about Jesus in Rev 19 is what is happening up in heaven not on the earth. The text doesn't mention Jesus or His armies coming to the earth only that He is seen riding a white horse in victory up in heaven with the armies following him as He is king of kings and lord of lords. revelation shows a few time when events come down to the earth but not in chapter 19

2 There is no physical battle the armies of heaven or the armies on earth are not fighting there are no weapons mentioned accept the sword out of Jesus' mouth which is symbolic for His word which is all powerful and all He needs it's his word that defeats all His enemies not any of our fighting.

3 If no one knows when Jesus is returning then how come the beast knows when to gather and fight Jesus? I'm sure that the beast has read revelation and knows what happens to him at the battle so why would he show up?.

4 Verse 18 says that the birds will eat the flesh of all people great and small. If literal who would the saints reign over?

5 If it is literal and Jesus sits on the throne and doesn't leave His seat then the verse below couldn't be possible

Rev 2:16
16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Obviously the verse above proves that Jesus fighting with the sword of His mouth is symbolic for victory in judgement not a literal sword slashing people.

I believe that Psalm 110 proves that Jesus will sit at the right hand of the Father until the end of our world when satan is finally defeated and cast into the lake of fire right before the great white throne judgement.

Yes we reign until the end of our world.

 

[Marty fox]

As a Premill I might look at this differently. It's a legitimate point. However, if I'm to accept Rev 20 and the Millennium I would have to read this as Jesus remaining in heaven until all the forces of Antichrist are vanquished.

The Millennium is, I suppose, a time of peace when Jesus' enemies have been subdued. The fact Jesus' enemies rise again after the Millennium may not, then, be a contradiction. It depends on whether you assume there is a literal Millennium or not.

Of course, its a contradiction. I believe in the millennium just not a literal one but Psalm 110 proves that Jesus is on the throne in heaven until satan is defeated and cast into the lake of fire.

1 Corinthians 15
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

The last enemy is death which is at the end of our world after satan is defeated and cast into the lake of fire. This proves that Jesus still reigns after satan is released and that we will still reign with him after satan is released.

 

[Marty fox]

Doesn't mean there is no 1000 years at all. Sitti9ng at the right hand is far more than just a physical location. It was and means the position of favor. The person who sits on teh right hand of a king is the highest authority in the kingdom after the king. It doesn't mean they are glued to a charir.

I never said that there is no 1000 years.

 

[Marty fox]

Both Amils and Premils already agree with that, the fact satan's little season and the great white throne judgment are all post the the thousand years.


The question then is, once Christ leaves heaven can He still be sitting on the right hand of God? Or is that only something He can do while in heaven? Keeping in mind, regardless where one thinks the great white throne judgment fits, it is meaning after He has left heaven. And that most of us agree Jesus is the one sitting on the white throne. Would He still be sitting on the right hand of God per Revelation 20:11-15? Keeping in mind as well, this--For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death--what you already brought up?


I'm not asking these questions because I myself don't have any answers, I'm asking these questions to show that even after He has left heaven, He is obviously still sitting on the right hand of God until death and hell have been cast into the LOF during the great white throne judgment. Which then means a thousand years can fit after the 2nd coming and that Psalm 110 hasn't proved one way or the other that the thousand years are not literal, that the thousand years can't fit after the 2nd coming. Only way it can't is if the great white throne judgment happens and conclude the very same day He returns.

So does Jesus still reign during satan little season?

 

[Marty fox]

Dear Marty fox,
To begin, I want to point out that scripture is written in the spiritual language of Christ. In that language, Christ uses "spirit" words (John 6:63) which have meanings that are different from what man's wisdom teaches (1Cor 2:13). Christ then uses His "spirit" words (symbols) to teach us through parables, types and analogies. Christ teaches His truth in this manner to keep it concealed from everyone except His converted Elect - those who have been given ears that can hear and eyes that can see.

Because Christ teaches us in His spiritual language, the term "thousand years" does not mean literal time.

To help better understand the meaning of a Thousand Years, Peter says that it is like a "day":

2Pet 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The "day" that Peter is referencing is the Day of the Lord and is the subject of what Peter says in chapter 3. And like the Thousand Years, the Day of the Lord does not represent literal time either - both are spiritual symbols.

So what do the symbols "Day of the Lord" and the "Thousand Years" represent?

The Day of the Lord represents the judgment of Christ upon an individual. The primary purpose of that judgment is to destroy the "chaff" (carnality) of the person who is being judged. After that judgment is complete, the individual will be converted from being a child of the Devil to being a child of God.

In this age, Christ is only judging His Elect. However, the Elect's time of judgment is different from the judgment of the "lost" in the final age. For that reason, the Day of the Lord is said to be like a "Thousand Years" as it applies to the Elect

For the Elect, judgment falls on them immediately after they have received the Latter Rain of the Spirit (baptism of the Spirit). With this baptism, the Elect individual will be "born again" as a child of God. Since the child of God is not judged, the child will be gathered up to heaven (spiritually speaking, not literally) to dwell with Christ. Immediately after this new birth occurs, Christ and the new child of God will reign in judgment over the carnality of that same person. This is shown in Revelation chapter 19. Because the Elect are born again prior to judgment falling on them, they will not experience wrath during their time of judgment. Instead, they will reign with Christ for a thousand years during their own time of judgment. Then, in the final age, the Elect will reign a second time with Christ when the "lost" of that age are judged. For that reason, the Thousand Years are "twice told":

Ecc 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place? (the Lake of Fire for destruction)

After the Elect's "thousand years" (their judgment) is complete, the person will be converted. Rev 20:5 calls this full spiritual process of conversion the "First Resurrection". After the individual is converted, Satan will then be loosed for a short season to test the new child of God. This is shown in Rev 20:7-10. Christ "typed" this time of testing which the Elect will experience just after He completed His 40 days of fasting in the wilderness. It was at this time that Satan came to Christ and tempted Him. And just as Christ passed this time of testing, so will the converted Elect.

The book of Revelation is not about outward world events which happen at the literal end of this age. The book is teaching about the spiritual events which happen within the lives of each Elect person when the end of the ages come upon them.

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

For that reason, the book says that the Elect will "keep" the sayings of the prophecy:

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Since the Elect were being converted at the time John received the prophecy, the time was "at hand" for their fulfillment.

If a person does not accept that the time for the sayings of the book of Revelation was at hand at the time the book was written, they are never going to understand the spiritual teachings of the book.

And because these spiritual events will happen within the lives of all the Elect, the book says this about Christ's second coming:

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to COME; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne...

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to COME, the Almighty.

Rev 22:7 Behold, I COME QUICKLY: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Joe

I like these thanks and agree the thousand and revelation are very symbolic.

But I do also believe that revelation does show symbolic images of events but I also believe that most of these events were in the past.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Of course, its a contradiction. I believe in the millennium just not a literal one but Psalm 110 proves that Jesus is on the throne in heaven until satan is defeated and cast into the lake of fire.

1 Corinthians 15
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

The last enemy is death which is at the end of our world after satan is defeated and cast into the lake of fire. This proves that Jesus still reigns after satan is released and that we will still reign with him after satan is released.

Rendering the Millennium "literal" when it is not viewed as a thousand years in the future, after Christ returns, doesn't make sense to me. Applying the Millennium to the present age is, for me, a symbolic application.

I see Christ experiencing a "legal" victory over Satan at the cross, but I do not see Satan literally defeated in terms of his being jailed presently. He is everywhere active, opposing the Gospel, killing Christians, and hindering the activity of the Gospel, even though he cannot and has never been able to stop God from carrying out His purposes on earth.

If Satan has been presently bound then he would not have to be included in all of the enemies defeated at Christ's Coming. Seeing him "released" for a short time before Christ's Return does not appear to be a different scenario or a different Antichrist than any of the many in history who never were "bound."

These are some of the reasons why I cannot follow what I see as a "symbolic Millennium" applied to the present age.

 

[FaithWillDo]

I like these thanks and agree the thousand and revelation are very symbolic.

But I do also believe that revelation does show symbolic images of events but I also believe that most of these events were in the past.

Dear Marty fox,
The primary message of the book of Revelation is the unveiling of Christ within His Elect. In other words, it teaches the pathway to salvation that each of the Elect will travel. This is the same message that all end-time prophecy teaches (includes Matthew chapter 24). The only events that occur at the literal end of this age is the bodily resurrections from the grave and the White Throne judgment. All other prophecy is, was and will be fulfilled within the Elect when Christ comes to them. This is why John says the "time is at hand".

The Elect will keep all the sayings of the prophecy of the book and this most certainly includes chapter 13. Chapter 13 begins by showing us a Seven Headed Beast. This beast represents a fallen away believer who has the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ (the second beast). The number of this fallen away believer is 666 because the individual has been made "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45). The number 6 represents mankind. It is repeated three times because the number 3 represents the spiritual process which makes the person worse than they were before Christ gave them the Early Rain of the Spirit. All the Elect will become this Seven Headed Beast (also called a man of sin) at some point prior to Christ coming to them a second time to give them the Latter Rain.

Also, chapter 11 teaches a short version of the pathway to salvation by using the symbol "two witnesses". The number 2 is a symbol for the witness of God who are the Elect. The Two Witnesses represent all the Elect and not just two people as is commonly taught. Because it does, all the Elect will keep this prophecy, too. In that prophecy, the point in time when Satan kills the Two Witnesses occurs when an Elect believer is made "worse than the first" (Seven Headed Beast) with the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ (Second Beast). This event is called the Abomination of Desolation and is why Christ mentions it in Matthew chapter 24. After an Elect believer falls away and becomes a Seven Headed Beast, they will remain in this worsened spiritual state until Christ comes to them a second time and pours out the Latter Rain. This is shown in verses 11 & 12 when the Two Witnesses stand on their feet and ascend to heaven.

None of the events of the prophecy symbolize physical and outward happenings in the world. They symbolize spiritual happenings within a person. This is how we should be understanding the spirit words of Christ. Christ's words should not be understood in a carnal way (physical & outward) as most people understand them.

Joe

 

[Marty fox]

Dear Marty fox,
The primary message of the book of Revelation is the unveiling of Christ within His Elect. In other words, it teaches the pathway to salvation that each of the Elect will travel. This is the same message that all end-time prophecy teaches (includes Matthew chapter 24). The only events that occur at the literal end of this age is the bodily resurrections from the grave and the White Throne judgment. All other prophecy is, was and will be fulfilled within the Elect when Christ comes to them. This is why John says the "time is at hand".

The Elect will keep all the sayings of the prophecy of the book and this most certainly includes chapter 13. Chapter 13 begins by showing us a Seven Headed Beast. This beast represents a fallen away believer who has the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ (the second beast). The number of this fallen away believer is 666 because the individual has been made "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45). The number 6 represents mankind. It is repeated three times because the number 3 represents the spiritual process which makes the person worse than they were before Christ gave them the Early Rain of the Spirit. All the Elect will become this Seven Headed Beast (also called a man of sin) at some point prior to Christ coming to them a second time to give them the Latter Rain.

Also, chapter 11 teaches a short version of the pathway to salvation by using the symbol "two witnesses". The number 2 is a symbol for the witness of God who are the Elect. The Two Witnesses represent all the Elect and not just two people as is commonly taught. Because it does, all the Elect will keep this prophecy, too. In that prophecy, the point in time when Satan kills the Two Witnesses occurs when an Elect believer is made "worse than the first" (Seven Headed Beast) with the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ (Second Beast). This event is called the Abomination of Desolation and is why Christ mentions it in Matthew chapter 24. After an Elect believer falls away and becomes a Seven Headed Beast, they will remain in this worsened spiritual state until Christ comes to them a second time and pours out the Latter Rain. This is shown in verses 11 & 12 when the Two Witnesses stand on their feet and ascend to heaven.

None of the events of the prophecy symbolize physical and outward happenings in the world. They symbolize spiritual happenings within a person. This is how we should be understanding the spirit words of Christ. Christ's words should not be understood in a carnal way (physical & outward) as most people understand them.

Joe

I also see it as Jesus ushering in the new covenant at the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70AD

And also the transition the earthly Jerusalem to the new Jerusalem the church

 

[grafted branch]

1 What John sees about Jesus in Rev 19 is what is happening up in heaven not on the earth. The text doesn't mention Jesus or His armies coming to the earth only that He is seen riding a white horse in victory up in heaven with the armies following him as He is king of kings and lord of lords. revelation shows a few time when events come down to the earth but not in chapter 19

Good point, there is no mention of actually coming to earth.

2 There is no physical battle the armies of heaven or the armies on earth are not fighting there are no weapons mentioned accept the sword out of Jesus' mouth which is symbolic for His word which is all powerful and all He needs it's his word that defeats all His enemies not any of our fighting.

I agree, I don’t think Jesus or the heavenly armies are engaged in a physical battle. Although that doesn’t mean a physical battle wasn’t occurring at the time, only that those in heaven weren’t physically fighting. The sword represents the word and as Luke 21:22 says, that all things written may be fulfilled. That is the sword or words being fulfilled, that is the weapon.

3 If no one knows when Jesus is returning then how come the beast knows when to gather and fight Jesus? I'm sure that the beast has read revelation and knows what happens to him at the battle so why would he show up?.

That’s a great question, I like how you think. I would say that only Premill have an problem with this though, most Premill I have met believe in free will and clearly Satan or an Antichrist can’t have free will if their view is correct, because they would have to act exactly as the scriptures say.

Anyone who believes in election can just say Satan or the beast will be forced to act accordingly, just as Peter had no choice but to deny Jesus once he was told he would make the denial. After all if Peter did have a free will choice once he was told, then Jesus tempted or tested God.

Personally I think Jesus did know the time frame just not the exact day or hour else you couldn’t have verses such as Revelation 3:3 If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. Jesus had to know the time frame, Jesus knew He was coming on those at Sardis (I will come upon thee) and the warning was to watch. If Jesus had no idea of when He was coming He couldn’t have said He would come upon Sardis.

4 Verse 18 says that the birds will eat the flesh of all people great and small. If literal who would the saints reign over?

That question actually supports the idea that the reigning ends at that time.

5 If it is literal and Jesus sits on the throne and doesn't leave His seat then the verse below couldn't be possible

Rev 2:16
16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

I don’t necessarily think sitting at the right hand of God is meant as Jesus literally sitting but it is meant as a position, His right, or appropriate place, His reign. The sitting or reigning ends when His enemies become His footstool and in Isaiah 66:1 His footstool is the earth. His footstool is not the lake of fire, so sometime prior to the GWT the reigning ends.

Revelation 2:16 is pointing to the sword out of His mouth in Revelation 19:15 and I would say it is also pointing to the Revelation 20 reigning ending.

Yes we reign until the end of our world.

And I would add that the Jews who believed in Jesus reigned with Him until the end of the old covenant age. I think Revelation was written to the circumcision and after 70AD is when the old covenant that decayed and waxed old vanished.

 

[FaithWillDo]

I also see it as Jesus ushering in the new covenant at the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70AD

And also the transition the earthly Jerusalem to the new Jerusalem the church

Dear Marty fox,
The New Covenant began with Christ's death and resurrection and not when the physical temple was destroyed.

Why do you believe the New Covenant began with the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D.?

In the verse below, Daniel teaches when the Old Covenant was fulfilled and replaced with the New Covenant:

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Christ confirmed the covenant that He made with Abraham when He began His earthly ministry and was baptized by John. That began the last seven years of Daniel's Seventy Weeks prophecy. Then, three and a half years later (midst of the week), Christ went to the cross and was "cut off". With His perfect sacrifice, the "sacrifice and oblation" under the Old Covenant was fulfilled. This marked the change from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant. The last three and half years remaining of Daniel's prophecy is now being fulfilled under the New Covenant.

I don't see that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. is ever mentioned in scripture and it's destruction has nothing to do with when the Old Covenant ended and the New Covenant began. Can you provide any scriptures that supports your understanding?

Joe

 

[Marty fox]

Dear Marty fox,
The New Covenant began with Christ's death and resurrection and not when the physical temple was destroyed.

Why do you believe the New Covenant began with the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D.?

In the verse below, Daniel teaches when the Old Covenant was fulfilled and replaced with the New Covenant:

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Christ confirmed the covenant that He made with Abraham when He began His earthly ministry and was baptized by John. That began the last seven years of Daniel's Seventy Weeks prophecy. Then, three and a half years later (midst of the week), Christ went to the cross and was "cut off". With His perfect sacrifice, the "sacrifice and oblation" under the Old Covenant was fulfilled. This marked the change from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant. The last three and half years remaining of Daniel's prophecy is now being fulfilled under the New Covenant.

I don't see that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. is ever mentioned in scripture and it's destruction has nothing to do with when the Old Covenant ended and the New Covenant began. Can you provide any scriptures that supports your understanding?

Joe

I don't think that the New Covenant started in 70AD, as you said it started during the first advent.

My point is that apostate Israel kept the old covenant age going after the first advent with the temple sacrifice so God judged them

 

[covenantee]

I don't see that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. is ever mentioned in scripture

Daniel 9:26
...the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

 

[Marty fox]

Good point, there is no mention of actually coming to earth.


I agree, I don’t think Jesus or the heavenly armies are engaged in a physical battle. Although that doesn’t mean a physical battle wasn’t occurring at the time, only that those in heaven weren’t physically fighting. The sword represents the word and as Luke 21:22 says, that all things written may be fulfilled. That is the sword or words being fulfilled, that is the weapon.


That’s a great question, I like how you think. I would say that only Premill have an problem with this though, most Premill I have met believe in free will and clearly Satan or an Antichrist can’t have free will if their view is correct, because they would have to act exactly as the scriptures say.

Anyone who believes in election can just say Satan or the beast will be forced to act accordingly, just as Peter had no choice but to deny Jesus once he was told he would make the denial. After all if Peter did have a free will choice once he was told, then Jesus tempted or tested God.

Personally I think Jesus did know the time frame just not the exact day or hour else you couldn’t have verses such as Revelation 3:3 If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. Jesus had to know the time frame, Jesus knew He was coming on those at Sardis (I will come upon thee) and the warning was to watch. If Jesus had no idea of when He was coming He couldn’t have said He would come upon Sardis.


That question actually supports the idea that the reigning ends at that time.


I don’t necessarily think sitting at the right hand of God is meant as Jesus literally sitting but it is meant as a position, His right, or appropriate place, His reign. The sitting or reigning ends when His enemies become His footstool and in Isaiah 66:1 His footstool is the earth. His footstool is not the lake of fire, so sometime prior to the GWT the reigning ends.

Revelation 2:16 is pointing to the sword out of His mouth in Revelation 19:15 and I would say it is also pointing to the Revelation 20 reigning ending.


And I would add that the Jews who believed in Jesus reigned with Him until the end of the old covenant age. I think Revelation was written to the circumcision and after 70AD is when the old covenant that decayed and waxed old vanished.

Thanks for your compliments and reply

As to your answer in point #4 yes that's my point the premils think that the reigning on earth is after the coming in Rev 19 but if the chapter 19 text is literal then there would be no one to reign over on the earth.

Yes agreed, Jesus at the right hand of the father is also a position and authority up in heaven it doesn't mean that He will literally sit beside the Father until the end of our world. For example Stephen saw Jesus standing at the right hand of the Father when he was killed.

Again my point is that the literal view of revelation can't be right Jesus is reigning up in heaven until the end of our world when all of His enemies are judged.