Pt 5. Why I Believe Judas Iscariot is Saved

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jeremiah1five

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Because the Scripture says that He is.

Mark 14:19-21
19 And they began to be sorrowful, and to say unto him one by one, Is it I? and another said, Is it I?
20 And he answered and said unto them, It is one of the twelve, that dippeth with me in the dish.
21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good
were it for that man if he had never been born.


Many Christians take the word "woe" as though it is some kind of word for eternal condemnation, but it doesn't mean
that. It is simply a word that means "grief." It is a word used in exclamation, such as "alas," and its cognates.

woe: [Strong's #3759] "ouai" a primary exclamation of grief.

This Greek word is found translated as "woe" 41 times in the New Testament, and 6 times as "alas."

Jesus says: "The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but GRIEF to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed!"

And grief is what Judas' choices broughts him when he began to see the fruit of his actions. Sure, the Son of man goeth,
as it was written of Him: but didn't also Judas Iscariot goeth as it was written of him, too?

And what about the following statement Jesus made?

Jesus: "good were it for that man if he had never been born."

That is a very interesting statement by Jesus being that God was the one that ordained every moment of Judas' life from the moment of his birth to the day of his death, even to the act of betrayal he committed against His Lord. Is Jesus challenging His Father's wisdom for Judas? Does Jesus have a secondary option for Judas apart from His Father's will for Judas that is being unfolded here? There is prophecy in the Old Testament about someone that God calls friend that "lifts up his heel against Him."
I don't disagree that Judas betrayed Jesus. He did. He betrayed Jesus by telling the religious leaders where they could find Him.
It was a secret place known only to the twelve apostles who, until Judas broke that confidence, had kept the secret secure among them.

But would it have been good if Judas had not been born?

If Judas had not been born there would have been no betrayal. Jesus would not have been arrested, there would have been no midnight trial, no condemnation, no crucifixion, no death, no atonement and everyone would still be lost in sin without a substitutionary sacrifice in the Person of the only begotten Son of God. We would ALL still be lost in sin. That's what would have happen if Jesus truly meant that it would have been good if Judas Iscariot had not been born.

Tell me, would it have been good?

No, it would not.
 

bosco

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That's the same logic as saying "If people didn't murder each other, there would be no way of knowing just how powerful Jesus' salvation is because there would be no sins serious enough to show it." What you are putting forward here sounds eerily similar to the so-called "Gospel of Judas", which was condemned as heresy in the early centuries of the Church and which originated in the Gnostic sects. Dangerous ground.
 
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jeremiah1five

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bosco said:
That's the same logic as saying "If people didn't murder each other, there would be no way of knowing just how powerful Jesus' salvation is because there would be no sins serious enough to show it." What you are putting forward here sounds eerily similar to the so-called "Gospel of Judas", which was condemned as heresy in the early centuries of the Church and which originated in the Gnostic sects. Dangerous ground.
Bosco, I disagree with your interpretation. what is your take on the word "woe?" What does it mean?
 

bosco

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The word "woe" could be just as you wrote it above. I agree that, by itself, it does not determine what we should think of Judas' salvation. I would venture to say that while we cannot know the state of Judas' salvation, that the weight of biblical evidence casts it in a very dubious light.

But the meaning of the word "woe" doesn't help Judas's case, either. From his condemnation by Christ to his condemnation by Peter to his suicide without any indication of returning to God, it seems fairly impossible to make a case for his salvation as you seem to be attempting to do. One cannot determine with absolute certainty that he is eternally lost; but to continue to consider him as one of the twelve, and to portray him, and now his betrayal, in such a positive light runs counter to all the evidence that Scripture gives.
 
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Axehead

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dragonfly said:
Hi J1:5,

As you might expect, I wonder why you have three threads on the same topic?



Now I do see the 'twelve thrones', but can we say that when Jesus prayed in John 17:12 using the word 'lost' to describe Judas Iscariot, He actually DID NOT MEAN 'LOST', nor did His reference to the scripture being fulfilled have any real meaning either?

Peter also quotes scripture in Acts 1 'his bishoprick let another take', before Matthias was chosen. Why would Matthias NOT become the twelfth?
Excellent, dragonfly.
 

Foreigner

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Why are there five seperate threads on this topic.
It is as unimportant as it is self-indulgent.
 

jeremiah1five

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Foreigner said:
Why are there five seperate threads on this topic.
It is as unimportant as it is self-indulgent.
If I am dealing with the Word of God it is HIGHLY IMPORTANT.
Are you anti-Biblical? Your statement says as much.
 

bosco

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That is petty, Jeremiah. Quoting from the Bible does not make you an expert, and disagreeing with your interpretation or presentation does not make someone antibiblical. Your thesis seems designed to promote OSAS, not to lead one to actual biblical truth about Judas Iscariot.
 
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Axehead

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Foreigner said:
Why are there five seperate threads on this topic.
It is as unimportant as it is self-indulgent.
I think it is called a "shell game", Foreigner. :ph34r:

Example of self-importance: I'm proud of my humility. :eek:
 

Foreigner

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You appear to be spot on, Axehead.

This guy really is a legend in his own mind.

Somehow, because I wonder why he started five seperate threads where his opinion is the focus instead of just one, I am somehow "anti-Biblical."

Apparently, all for one and he's the one.
 

veteran

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Fact of the matter still is, Judas Iscariot has not been judged and sentenced to perish in the lake of fire yet. No flesh born man has yet.

So I don't know why some here act so snooty at this matter, as if they knew Judas is condemned, which is to try and place oneself in Christ's Authority as The ONLY Judge that can condemn one to perish.

Sure, we know from Scripture there will be some that will perish with Satan in the lake of fire, but NONE of us knows exactly who that will be yet, because The Judgment has NOT happened yet. And if you believe it has, then you and I do not believe in the same LORD YHVH and His Son Jesus Christ.
 

JB_Reformed Baptist

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Believe all you like but he's in the place that he was foreordained too, HELL. Consider that he was refered to as "Son of Perdition”. There are two people in the Bible who are called the “Son of Perdition,” Judas and the Antichrist!! .“Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil? “He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve (John 6:68-71.) Jn.17:12 tells us no one will be lost, but the son of perdition, who is Judas.

Act 1:24-25 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
 

SilenceInMotion

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What I think is that the apostles had a certain conviction for Judas. It was because of him that they all ended up fleeing for their lives, humiliated into denying Jesus. These things made them feel at odds by both people and God.

So of course Scripture is going to illustrate a bit of conviction. Their testimonies aren't going to paint Judas as a benevolent person, because he betrayed them as well. A lot of people don't look at it from that angle, they tend to focus on Jesus specifically.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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Here is the way I see it ....

Obviously Satan realized he had to put a stop to Jesus so he used one of the apostles to help him do it (Judas)

Satan probably thought he was pretty clever , He certainly got rid of Jesus.

Trouble is , after Jesus was raised back up , Satan realized that Jesus' death was actually a sacrifice as payment for sin

Satan must have been pretty pi$$ed at that point , because he (along with Judas) had caused Jesus to be sacrificed.

If Satan could do it over again , I bet he would try to keep Jesus alive for as long as possible in order to prevent the sacrifice on the cross.

In summary I think Satan outsmarted himself and Jesus let him walk right into it.

It is no wonder Satan is so pi$$ed off.

He did it to himself.
 

horsecamp

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JB_Reformed Baptist said:
Believe all you like but he's in the place that he was foreordained too, HELL. Consider that he was refered to as "Son of Perdition”. There are two people in the Bible who are called the “Son of Perdition,” Judas and the Antichrist!! .“Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil? “He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve (John 6:68-71.) Jn.17:12 tells us no one will be lost, but the son of perdition, who is Judas.

Act 1:24-25 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
you forget Jesus also called peter satan . because peter tried to stop JESUS from dying for our sins ..

God pre-ordaines people only to heaven------ No WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY GOD PRE ORDAINES any one to hell -------------its one own fault alone.. if A PERSON PREPARES THEM SELVES FOR destruction AND ENDs UP THERE DO TO UNBELEIF IN JESUS ---------- and God credit alone if ones goes to heaven DO TO FAITH IN JESUS ..

the bible does not need to be made reasonable its people who need to be made christian by accepting the bible even if it goes against their reason..



peoples own fault for ending up in hell ----------

Matthew 23:37
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?


To Gods credit alone
for those in heaven..



Ephesians 1:4-5



4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he[a] predestined us for adoption to sonship[b] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
 

SilenceInMotion

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Christian morocco said:
Mark 14:19-21 prove that Judas was not saved, i do not see the point of argument.
That's not really true. The verse is expressing the grief of Judas after betrying Jesus. It eventually led to a grief so deep that he hung himself. Pretty much, his entire life amounted to betraying the Son of God.

That is what that verse illustrates. It would have been better if he were never born, for his woe destroyed him.

One cannot forget human weakness. The apostles were constantly stressed, knowing that they were in opposition to both Rome and the Jews. Satan got to the weakest of the twelve to drive mad with temptation and eventually demons.
Even Jesus called one Satan- the Devil was penetrating them in any way he could.

In reality, there is no evidence as to whether he was saved or condemned. The apostles denied Jesus when he was captured- people tend to forget that they are still human. Judas has always traditionally been condemned among many Christians, but in truth, there has never actually been any real conclusive evidence or logic to say that he was 'evil'. He had good in him; he was ashamed and threw the money back at the Pharisees. At that point, he would have died next to Jesus, but instead killed himself out of grief and shame.

If St. Dismas can be saved next to Jesus on the cross, and the apostles thereafter denying Jesus, then I see no reason why Judas should automatically be put to the purge with no recourse.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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Why did Judas kill himself?

Because of guilt ?

Or was he still possessed by Satan and wanted to end the affair ?

From Luke 22:3 ..... And Satan entered into Judas who was called Iscariot