Purgatory and Praying to Saints in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[BreadOfLife]

Jews dont crucify
the hundreds of thousands of people burned alive would say different

And as I schooled you in post #173 - posters on sources like YOU who get – get their “facts” about the Inquisitions from “Wikipedia” are really getting them from TWO major sources: Henry C. Lea (1825–1909) and G. G. Coulton (1858–1947).

As I stated earlier - BOTH of these men were virulent anti-Catholics with an obvious agenda.
Uneducated rubes don't do any actual research, so they buy into their falsehoods - hook, line and sinker . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

so it wasnt one million, it was just tens of thousands. well thats not so bad, only tens of thousands killed. lets have a party!

So WHO is worse?
Catholic Spaniards, who killed thousands of Protestants - or Protestant Brits, who killed thousands of Catholics?

I'll wait right here for your reasoned response . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

remember what i taught you if one monster wears two masks, its still the same monster. we know this was the same monster because it continued to kill Christians. remember how st Paul stopped killing, rome did not stop killing, same ole rome as always

Not the same "monster", Einstein.
TWO different entities: One is a government - one is a Church.

Remember that lesson I taught you about differentiating entities . . .

 

[jaybird]

Yeah, ok
Have a nice day

fun discussion, no hard feelings i hope.

 

[jaybird]

Forget everything I said about your previous posts.
THAT is the most moronic thing you've said so far.

did rome continue to kill Christians?

 

[jaybird]

And as I schooled you in post #173 - posters on sources like YOU who get – get their “facts” about the Inquisitions from “Wikipedia” are really getting them from TWO major sources: Henry C. Lea (1825–1909) and G. G. Coulton (1858–1947).

As I stated earlier - BOTH of these men were virulent anti-Catholics with an obvious agenda.
Uneducated rubes don't do any actual research, so they buy into their falsehoods - hook, line and sinker . . .

you could be right, unlike you i make mistakes everyday, i read a lot, i love theology, history, anthropology, to many to list, i always start off with wiki, they are not always right but they are always a good starting point as their archives are so vast, but from my exp, very anti conspiracy. anything that is associated with conspiracy, JFK, they will let you know on the front end.
the point of the whole thing is even if its 10k and not 100k, 10k deaths are ten thousand to many, there should be ZERO people being killed because of their beliefs.

 

[jaybird]

So WHO is worse?
Catholic Spaniards, who killed thousands of Protestants - or Protestant Brits, who killed thousands of Catholics?

I'll wait right here for your reasoned response . . .

and this is where you and i (i know you hate that) are on the same side, just like purgatory, prots where no better. Luther changing scripture, prots going to the MZ over the LXX, king edward and James and their persecutions, prots leaders and their doctrine of discovery and the genocide of my ancestors, the Native Americans.
my issue has never been with Catholics or Protestants, my issue has always been with the leadership. pharisee, popes, bishops, maga church money preachers, there is nothing new under the sun. wealth and power corrupts but its always hardest to see when its in your own back yard.

 

[jaybird]

Not the same "monster", Einstein.
TWO different entities: One is a government - one is a Church.

Remember that lesson I taught you about differentiating entities . . .

you know the church leaders had a hand in it. i dont deny the faults and wrong doings of my faith.

 

[Illuminator]

and this is where you and i (i know you hate that) are on the same side, just like purgatory, prots where no better. Luther changing scripture, prots going to the MZ over the LXX, king edward and James and their persecutions, prots leaders and their doctrine of discovery and the genocide of my ancestors, the Native Americans.
my issue has never been with Catholics or Protestants, my issue has always been with the leadership. pharisee, popes, bishops, maga church money preachers, there is nothing new under the sun. wealth and power corrupts but its always hardest to see when its in your own back yard.

you know the church leaders had a hand in it. i dont deny the faults and wrong doings of my faith.

The injustices inflicted on Native Americans by so called Christians cannot be denied. It was thought that the best way to alleviate poverty was through education, that was the motive. The methods were barbaric, and Native Americans had every right to be angry about residential schools, especially when their dignity was stolen by the white man. But it is wrong to think that the Church did nothing to stand up for indigenous peoples.

To the native peoples of Canada (September 20, 1987) | John Paul II (vatican.va)

The Church and the Native Americans | Catholic Answers

 

[BreadOfLife]

did rome continue to kill Christians?

Pagan Rome persecuted Christians until the reign of Constantine in the 4th century and the Edict of Milan, which gave protected legal status to Christianity.

Move out of your mom's basement and go to a library to do some reading . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

and this is where you and i (i know you hate that) are on the same side, just like purgatory, prots where no better. Luther changing scripture, prots going to the MZ over the LXX, king edward and James and their persecutions, prots leaders and their doctrine of discovery and the genocide of my ancestors, the Native Americans.
my issue has never been with Catholics or Protestants, my issue has always been with the leadership. pharisee, popes, bishops, maga church money preachers, there is nothing new under the sun. wealth and power corrupts but its always hardest to see when its in your own back yard.

you know the church leaders had a hand in it. i dont deny the faults and wrong doings of my faith.

If there are guilty individuals in history - then there are guilty individuals.
YOUR problem is that you are completely unable to differentiate the individuals from the Church at large.

Were there some bad Popes? Yup.
Were there some equally bad Protestant leaders? Yup.

For example - the Martyrs of Gorkum were a group of 19 Dutch Catholic clerics who were murdered (hanged) in 1572 by a group of Calvinists.
Using YOUR logic - Catholics should blame ALL Calvinists for this atrocity and not just those involved. We DON'T because most of us can

between the acts of individuals and an entire group - even though YOU can't . . .

 

[Truthcampaign.org]

Those who don't believe there is a purgatory, please explain these verses:

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms with your opponent in good time while you are still on the way to the court with him, or he may hand you over to the judge and the judge to the officer, and you will be thrown into prison. 26 In all truth I tell you, you will not get out till you have paid the last penny.

1Cor 15:29 Otherwise, what are people up to who have themselves baptised on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, what is the point of being baptised on their behalf?

Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory/ Prison!

 

[Illuminator]

The injustices inflicted on Native Americans by so called Christians cannot be denied. It was thought that the best way to alleviate poverty was through education, that was the motive. The methods were barbaric, and Native Americans had every right to be angry about residential schools, especially when their dignity was stolen by the white man. But it is wrong to think that the Church did nothing to stand up for indigenous peoples.

To the native peoples of Canada (September 20, 1987) | John Paul II (vatican.va)

The Church and the Native Americans | Catholic Answers

VANDALS OF ST. SERRA STATUE DESERVE SANCTIONS
San Francisco Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone’s decision to press for sanctions against the vandals who recently toppled a statue of St. Junípero Serra is being supported by the Catholic League.
To read Bill Donohue’s letter to the District Attorney of Marin County, click here.

 

[jaybird]

VANDALS OF ST. SERRA STATUE DESERVE SANCTIONS
San Francisco Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone’s decision to press for sanctions against the vandals who recently toppled a statue of St. Junípero Serra is being supported by the Catholic League.
To read Bill Donohue’s letter to the District Attorney of Marin County, click here.

you know Junípero is old latin for Jupiter. they had a statue of Zeus out there!!! its a Vaticano conspiracy death match!

ok im just messing with you guys.

 

[Berserk]

The biblical case has been laid out for Purgatory and praying to deceased saints and Evangelical critics have had no detailed exegete5ical answe4r to the detailed arguments. But what about these 4 common sense questions?

(1) If, as Paul and contemporary Judaism teach, there are several levels of Heaven, is it not reasonable to assume that we progress from one level to another and that Purgatory is one of the lower levels?
(2) If the preferred Heaven is a realm without impurities, how can carnal Christians who die with a flawed and petty character enter in directly without first needing a realm of purification like Purgatory?
(3) Why do Fundamentalists assume that, contrary to biblical teaching, our deceased loved ones neither care about us nor pray for us?
(4) And if they care about us and pray for us, why not ask deceased saints to intercede in prayer for us, especially with all the testimonies of resulting miracles?

 

[theefaith]

The biblical case has been laid out for Purgatory and praying to deceased saints and Evangelical critics have had no detailed exegete5ical answe4r to the detailed arguments. But what about these 4 common sense questions?

(1) If, as Paul and contemporary Judaism teach, there are several levels of Heaven, is it not reasonable to assume that we progress from one level to another and that Purgatory is one of the lower levels?
(2) If the preferred Heaven is a realm without impurities, how can carnal Christians who die with a flawed and petty character enter in directly without first needing a realm of purification like Purgatory?
(3) Why do Fundamentalists assume that, contrary to biblical teaching, our deceased loved ones neither care about us nor pray for us?
(4) And if they care about us and pray for us, why not ask deceased saints to intercede in prayer for us, especially with all the testimonies of resulting miracles?

communion of the saints yes
John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am theresurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

The biblical case has been laid out for Purgatory and praying to deceased saints and Evangelical critics have had no detailed exegete5ical answe4r to the detailed arguments. But what about these 4 common sense questions?

(1) If, as Paul and contemporary Judaism teach, there are several levels of Heaven, is it not reasonable to assume that we progress from one level to another and that Purgatory is one of the lower levels?
(2) If the preferred Heaven is a realm without impurities, how can carnal Christians who die with a flawed and petty character enter in directly without first needing a realm of purification like Purgatory?
(3) Why do Fundamentalists assume that, contrary to biblical teaching, our deceased loved ones neither care about us nor pray for us?
(4) And if they care about us and pray for us, why not ask deceased saints to intercede in prayer for us, especially with all the testimonies of resulting miracles?

Purgatory is not Heaven or Hell.
Levels in Heaven yes, but one progressed to such on this earth in this life.
One should not be concerned with the dead.
The Saints in Heaven are alive and we can gain strength from them only through the Holy Spirit.

 

[K9Buck]

If the preferred Heaven is a realm without impurities, how can carnal Christians who die with a flawed and petty character enter in directly without first needing a realm of purification like Purgatory?

Many believe that Jesus instantaneously changes us and that we immediately perfect and pure enough to stand in front of God.

I don't share that belief.

I believe that we are on a spiritual journey and that we are NOT face-to-face with the almighty immediately after death.

 

[K9Buck]

always start off with wiki, they are not always right

Wiki is fine for many things unless the topic is even remotely linked to a political, social, or religious issue.

 

[K9Buck]

Purgatory is not Heaven or Hell.

The great thing about purgatory is that there is no demonic or Satanic influence being used against us. For reasons unknown to me, many Catholics believe that purgatory is a place of pain. I don't believe that. I believe it's a place of redemption from the chains of sin.