Purgatory True of False

[Mungo]

If it is @Mungo it has never been taught in any of the churches I have been part of.

What is important, and what is taught, is about Jesus and the two great commandments - love God and love neighbour.
The Catechism has 2,864 paragraphs, of which 4 are about Purgatory.
It's Protestants who seem obsessed with this doctrine.

 

[Pearl]

What is important, and what is taught, is about Jesus and the two great commandments - love God and love neighbour.
The Catechism has 2,864 paragraphs, of which 4 are about Purgatory.
It's Protestants who seem obsessed with this doctrine.

I'm certainly not 'obsessed' with the doctrine of purgatory @Mungo. It wasn't even in the catechism I learned for my confirmation. Or in either of the creeds I learned. Unless the bible is specific about it - and if it is I must have missed it - I will not bother myself with worrying about it.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Only if you imagine it. Let's take one example from Hislop:
'The Roman Church maintains that it was not so much the seed of the woman, as the woman herself, that was to bruise the head of the serpent. In defiance of all grammar, she renders the Divine denunciation against the serpent thus: "She shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise her heel."'

When we go to the Douay-Rheims/Latin Vulgate Bible it matches what Hislop said: 15 inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem et semen tuum et semen illius ipsa conteret caput tuum et tu insidiaberis calcaneo eius
I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

But that is a perversion of Scripture which reads in every translation just as the KJB: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it [He] shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

This is speaking about the Lord Jesus Christ, not "the woman". So why did the Catholic Church pervert and corrupt this Scripture? Hislop has the explanation.
"Instead, therefore, of the Babylonian goddess being cast out, in too many cases her name only was changed. She was called the Virgin Mary, and, with her child, was worshipped with the same idolatrous feeling by professing Christians, as formerly by open and avowed Pagans... This, however, is just the exact reproduction of the doctrine of ancient Babylon in regard to the great goddess-mother. The Madonna of Rome, then, is just the Madonna of Babylon. The "Queen of Heaven" in the one system is the same as the "Queen of Heaven" in the other. The goddess worshipped in Babylon and Egypt as the Tabernacle or Habitation of God, is identical with her who, under the name of Mary, is called by Rome "The HOUSE consecrated to God," "the awful Dwellingplace," * "the Mansion of God" (Pancarpium Marioe), the "Tabernacle of the Holy Ghost" (Garden of the Soul), the "Temple of the Trinity" (Golden Manual in Scottish Protestant).

The worship of Mary as the Queen of Heaven is entrenched in Catholicism. So how can you say Hislop has been "debunked"?

What verse is that, about the head and the heel. I will look it up in my Bibles.

Mary her ? she is the Body the Church, that represents Christianity, for without Mary saying Yes, there would be no Christ Jesus.

The Body is the Church and Christ Jesus is the Head of that body, so Mary represents the Church body as she is the Ark of the new covenant ? She said Yes ? is everything in her honour, the Body ?
The foolish Jews built an Idol to a god that they did not know and or were mislead into following them who crept in and bastardised the Jewish People in fact and in Acts we see that exposed by Stephen and they killed him for stating the facts about the Jewish history.
The vineyard story exposes who it is that is that must be overcome, now God sent down men to deal with this Mob and then his only begotten Son to deal with this problem. vipers and serpents they are.

So it's the body of Christ Jesus that is doing his will to expose the Serpent and it looks as the Serpent will be crushed but the Church will be bruised for taking it on = the Hellfire.
Remember Moses and them Serpents how the Jews were being stung by them was said to be like the pain of fire. but what did they have to do ?

Mary represents what is good in Man, as she took on the subject for light, let it be done to me ?

Many Protestants peddle only the dark side of Man claiming there is no light in Man, no good at all. but that's a outright lie.
It's deceptions and delusions that undermine Man, not to mention the Stain of Sin that was the Serpents doing as before that Man was not corrupted, so the peddling of nothing is good in Man is a lie. Because if one was totally subjected to Sin one would have no hope regardless and this is were the cunning comes into it all that in this world you are condemned regardless.
But to be Saved you must be truly born again to enter into the Kingdom of God.
There is a light in everyone regardless of the powers of the Devil, but to deny such as I have come across some Prots do demand is out right Satanic.
Why would Jesus bother with Man if he was only like cattle. one can not save a cow.
The Talmud Jews claim that they are only worthy of their god and that all others are cattle and it's the Talmud that works to corrupt and bastardise all Christianity.

 

[Enoch111]

What verse is that, about the head and the heel. I will look it up in my Bibles.

Check Douay Rheims/Latin Vulgate. Genesis 3:15 is about Christ the "Seed of the Woman". He crushed Satan's head on the cross (destroyed the power of death, Hades, Hell, and Satan), and Satan bruised His heel through the nailing of His feet and the crucifixion by the Romans. In the Acts of Pilate, Pilate claimed that he saw demons walking around within the Jewish mob and inciting the mob to demand for the crucifixion of Christ. That may not be too far-fetched.

Why was Christ called the "Seed of the Woman"? Because He would be conceived supernatural in the virgin Mary's womb. There would be no human father involved, and she would conceive under the power of the Holy Spirit. A total miracle.

 

[Pythagorean12]

So now you think Christians are pagans.
You have some very unorthodox beliefs.

You have a reading comprehension problem.

You should study the history of the faiths. Judaism, the foundation stone of Christianity, and Christianity.

Btw, the Jews were polytheists first.

Surprise!

The days of our 7 day week are named after pagan deities. Our Easter, Christmas, were pagan holidays first.

Sabbath for the first people of The Way, what Christianity was mostly known as prior to being called Christianity, was that same day as for Jews. Sundown Friday to sundown Saturday.

"Sunday" worship occurred under the Romans and the Christians in their "jurisdiction". And it occurred to coincide with the pagan holiday Saturlina. Why? Study and find out.

Contrary to the bumper sticker slogan, ignorance is not bliss.
It's silly when it occurs among our people.
Which is why many a studious atheist, pagan, etc... are often more astute when debating some of us.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Only if you imagine it. Let's take one example from Hislop:
'The Roman Church maintains that it was not so much the seed of the woman, as the woman herself, that was to bruise the head of the serpent. In defiance of all grammar, she renders the Divine denunciation against the serpent thus: "She shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise her heel."'

When we go to the Douay-Rheims/Latin Vulgate Bible it matches what Hislop said: 15 inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem et semen tuum et semen illius ipsa conteret caput tuum et tu insidiaberis calcaneo eius
I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

But that is a perversion of Scripture which reads in every translation just as the KJB: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it [He] shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

This is speaking about the Lord Jesus Christ, not "the woman". So why did the Catholic Church pervert and corrupt this Scripture? Hislop has the explanation.
"Instead, therefore, of the Babylonian goddess being cast out, in too many cases her name only was changed. She was called the Virgin Mary, and, with her child, was worshipped with the same idolatrous feeling by professing Christians, as formerly by open and avowed Pagans... This, however, is just the exact reproduction of the doctrine of ancient Babylon in regard to the great goddess-mother. The Madonna of Rome, then, is just the Madonna of Babylon. The "Queen of Heaven" in the one system is the same as the "Queen of Heaven" in the other. The goddess worshipped in Babylon and Egypt as the Tabernacle or Habitation of God, is identical with her who, under the name of Mary, is called by Rome "The HOUSE consecrated to God," "the awful Dwellingplace," * "the Mansion of God" (Pancarpium Marioe), the "Tabernacle of the Holy Ghost" (Garden of the Soul), the "Temple of the Trinity" (Golden Manual in Scottish Protestant).

The worship of Mary as the Queen of Heaven is entrenched in Catholicism. So how can you say Hislop has been "debunked"?

My 1953 Catholic action edition Bible says. He shall crush your head, and you shall lie in wait for his heel.

In the foot notes it says. Her seed; he ...his: refers principally to Jesus Christ, the Conqueror of Satan.
The Hebrew words included also all faithful children of God in every age who share in Christ victory by their opposition to Satan and his offspring, Crush ... lie in wait for: though the same Hebrew verb is used in both instances, these two meanings are determined by the parts of the body injured (head and heel) and by the serpent's manner of attack.
This verse contains the first promise of a Redeemer for fallen mankind.

 

[Mungo]

You have a reading comprehension problem.

Untrue.

You should study the history of the faiths. Judaism, the foundation stone of Christianity, and Christianity.

Btw, the Jews were polytheists first.

What? Before they became Jews?
Yes, Abraham (for example) was a pagan.

The days of our 7 day week are named after pagan deities.

So what?
You seem to have an obsession with paganisn

Our Easter, Christmas, were pagan holidays first.

Untrue

Sabbath for the first people of The Way, what Christianity was mostly known as prior to being called Christianity, was that same day as for Jews. Sundown Friday to sundown Saturday.

Untrue

"Sunday" worship occurred under the Romans and the Christians in their "jurisdiction". And it occurred to coincide with the pagan holiday Saturlina. Why? Study and find out.

Untrue

Contrary to the bumper sticker slogan, ignorance is not bliss.

Then you should stop being so ignorant.

 

[Pythagorean12]

Untrue.


What? Before they became Jews?
Yes, Abraham (for example) was a pagan.


So what?
You seem to have an obsession with paganisn


Untrue


Untrue



Untrue


Then you should stop being so ignorant.

I'm confident the astute committed to truth know denying facts doesn't alter history.
Judges 2:11 The Israelites did evil before the Lord by worshiping the Baals. 12 They abandoned the Lord God of their ancestors who brought them out of the land of Egypt. They followed other gods—the gods of the nations who lived around them. They worshiped them and made the Lord angry.

And of course there was Solomon.

 

[Taken]

Purgatory True of False
OP ^

Purgatory True of False

 

[Mungo]

I'm confident the astute committed to truth know denying facts doesn't alter history.
Judges 2:11 The Israelites did evil before the Lord by worshiping the Baals. 12 They abandoned the Lord God of their ancestors who brought them out of the land of Egypt. They followed other gods—the gods of the nations who lived around them. They worshiped them and made the Lord angry.

And of course there was Solomon.

So what's our latest theory?
That Jesus and the apostles were apostate Jews?
You do have some weird ideas.

 

[JohnPaul]

The way I look at it if Purgatory is not in the Bible then it doesn’t exist.

 

[Mungo]

The way I look at it if Purgatory is not in the Bible then it doesn’t exist.

Depends what you mean by 'in the Bible'.
If you mean the actual word Purgatory then neither Incarnation nor Trinity are in the Bible.
If you mean the concept then it is in the Bible.

 

[Pearl]

Depends what you mean by 'in the Bible'.
If you mean the actual word Purgatory then neither Incarnation nor Trinity are in the Bible.
If you mean the concept then it is in the Bible.

Not in any of the teachings I've received from the bible. Do you want to tell us chapter and verse?

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Purgatory is “a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.” To summarize, in Catholic theology Purgatory is a place that a Christian’s soul goes to after death to be cleansed of the sins that had not been fully satisfied during life. Is this doctrine of Purgatory in agreement with the Bible? Absolutely not!

Jesus paid the price for all our sins, if we are in him we are fully redeemed, there is nothing else to pay. His blood bought freedom from all sin for those who accept him as Lord and Saviour and live in Him by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Perhaps Catholics need purgatory because they don't teach that Jesus paid the full price. But it is no way a biblical concept.

 

[Mungo]

Not in any of the teachings I've received from the bible. Do you want to tell us chapter and verse?

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Purgatory is “a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.” To summarize, in Catholic theology Purgatory is a place that a Christian’s soul goes to after death to be cleansed of the sins that had not been fully satisfied during life. Is this doctrine of Purgatory in agreement with the Bible? Absolutely not!

Why not go to the Catechism?
That is more authoritative than the Catholic Encyclopedia.
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
(Catechism of the Catholic Church para 1030)

There are many chapters and verses that show the evidence for Purgatory.
I'll start a new thread for it, though much of it I have posted before (not necessarily in this thread).
It will take several posts.

 

[Pearl]

All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

If people are 'in Christ' they are not 'imperfectly purified' Jesus said 'it is finished' by his death and resurrection he defeated the devil. Those who accept his sacrifice and turn their lives over to him are no longer sinners in God's sight but saints. This is basic stuff but stuff the Catholics seem to have missed out on. It isn't your fault @Mungo you are just hanging on to what you've been taught. But I wish you would re-think it and pray about it all.

 

[Mungo]

If people are 'in Christ' they are not 'imperfectly purified' Jesus said 'it is finished' by his death and resurrection he defeated the devil. Those who accept his sacrifice and turn their lives over to him are no longer sinners in God's sight but saints. This is basic stuff but stuff the Catholics seem to have missed out on. It isn't your fault @Mungo you are just hanging on to what you've been taught. But I wish you would re-think it and pray about it all.

That's fantasy.
But see my new thread - "Purgatory - A Catholic's Understanding"

 

[Pearl]

That's fantasy.
But see my new thread - "Purgatory - A Catholic's Understanding"

It isn't fantasy @Mungo - that is what is at the very heart of Christianity - that Jesus died as the sacrificial lamb so we could be cleansed from all our sin and made acceptable to God through our relationship with his Son; so that we could become new creations, so that we could become his Church, his brothers, his family - saints instead of sinners. If you really don't understand that then I wonder what other untruths you have been wrongly taught - but I suspect there are many.

 

[Mungo]

It isn't fantasy @Mungo - that is what is at the very heart of Christianity - that Jesus died as the sacrificial lamb so we could be cleansed from all our sin and made acceptable to God through our relationship with his Son; so that we could become new creations, so that we could become his Church, his brothers, his family - saints instead of sinners. If you really don't understand that then I wonder what other untruths you have been wrongly taught - but I suspect there are many.

Oh, I do understand that Pearl. And I agree with it.
But that is not what you said in your previous post. And I notice you made no attempt to justify your statements with scripture.

 

[Pythagorean12]

So what's our latest theory?
That Jesus and the apostles were apostate Jews?
You do have some weird ideas.

Jesus was illegally "tried" by the Sanhedrin for being apostate, a blasphemer.
And the Jews that followed Jesus were indeed considered apostate by the Sanhedrin, because the elders dudnt recognize Jesus as Messiah .
Which is why Saul, a Pharisee, sought them out.
Stephen was stoned for apostasy and blasphemy.

You should study.

 

[Pearl]

Oh, I do understand that Pearl. And I agree with it.
But that is not what you said in your previous post. And I notice you made no attempt to justify your statements with scripture.

Oh well, I'm glad you do but puzzled as to why, if you believe Jesus paid the ransom for all our sin, you would even believe in a place for those who are 'imperfectly purified'. We are purified by the blood of Jesus - not everybody but all those who turn their lives over to him.