QUESTION 1 for YOU - IF YOU BELIEVE JESUS is GOD

[shturt678]

To all:

We are trying to make this subject too complicated. Jesus was man and he was God.

The flesh came from his mother and that was human.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Jesus was tempted as all humans, yet without sin. If he was tempted, then he could have sinned, yet he did not. This is speaking of Jesus the man.

Jesus, spiritually, was God.

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Mar 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
Mar 2:6 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
Mar 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
God is the only one who can forgive us of our sins.
Mar 2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
Mar 2:11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.

Adam was given eternal life as long as he did not eat of the tree of knowledge. By doing so, he brought death to all. Jesus came as a man that he might be the sacrifice that would give eternal life back to us.

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Thank you folks for caring!

Excellent post!

The 'complicated' part is to get the valid God-man Jesus aboard, ie, IICor.11:4, "another Jesus," core based upon not a "different gospel."

Old simple lower paygrade Jack

 

[kjw47]

It was said before by one of the JW's here, that God is love. Of course that is quite correct, God is indeed love, and has been such for all eternity. This being the case it is essential therefore that He had someone to direct that love to, else the love ceases to be love. Love must have an object. Thus there must have been someone, as eternal as the Father, in whom love was equally shared. This someone is/was Jesus. If there was no-one to whom God's love was shared, then at some stage in eternity, God couldn't have been love. Therefore Jesus was eternal, and not a created being.

even Jesus tells all he was created--Proverbs 8:23---rev 3:14

You're not making sense... Address my post on Philips question and Jesus' response.. Reread it if you don't mind... What you said has nothin to do withe what He said. ****I been with you all this long time and you ain't know ***me***... Get around that.. The only way is with a lie... Surrounded by superstars...

It isn't that I am not making sense--I answered you with reality--unfortunately--what does light have to do with darkness?

 

[Angelina]

Quote from kjw47

even Jesus tells all he was created--Proverbs 8:23---rev 3:14

Proverbs 8
I, Wisdom, share a home with shrewdness and have knowledge and discretion. 13 To fear the Lord is to hate evil.

22 “The Lord made me at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago.
23 I was formed before ancient times, from the beginning, before the earth began.
24 I was born when there were no watery depths and no springs filled with water. 25 I was delivered
before the mountains and hills were established,27 I was there when He established the heavens,

In the above passage, he is speaking of "Wisdom". Not Jesus being formed. Corresponding with this, let's take a look at what the word says about Jesus...

Hebrews 1:8
8 but to the Son:

Your throne, God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of Your kingdom
is a scepter of justice. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
this is why God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of joy rather than Your companions.
10 And:

In the beginning, Lord, You established the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands;
11 they will perish, but You remain. They will all wear out like clothing;

Let's take a look at your next quote...

Revelation 3
“The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Originator of God’s creation says:

This verse does not say that Jesus was created. The speaker [who is Jesus] is stating that he is the Amen, the faithful and true witness and the originator of God's creation... which is all things that have been created...

try again... :unsure:

 

[shturt678]

even Jesus tells all he was created--Proverbs 8:23---rev 3:14

It isn't that I am not making sense--I answered you with reality--unfortunately--what does light have to do with darkness?

Thank you for caring!

Rev.3:14, "the Beginning of the Creation of God," which recalls Col.1:15-18, expecially "Beginning," and "First-born of all creation." This is the most explicit reference to the Lord's pre-existence that is found in Revelation. He's the uncreated Son of God who is as eternal as the Father. All creation exists only with reference to Him otherwise it would nto even exist.

Old Jack

 

[Axehead]

Why do you believe Jesus is God, when you can read
word for word in the Book of Numbers,

Chapter 23, 19: God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man,
that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken,
and shall he not make it good?

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this." Isaiah 9:6-7

"The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war : he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies." Isaiah 42:13 KJV

Passages such as Numbers 23:19 do not rule out the possibility of God appearing as a man and/or becoming a man. It simply states that God's essence is distinct from man, without denying the fact that God could/would eventually take on human flesh. In reality, these texts simply illustrate that God is not a man by nature and doesn’t therefore lie or change his mind like men normally do.

 

[kjw47]

Thank you for caring!

Rev.3:14, "the Beginning of the Creation of God," which recalls Col.1:15-18, expecially "Beginning," and "First-born of all creation." This is the most explicit reference to the Lord's pre-existence that is found in Revelation. He's the uncreated Son of God who is as eternal as the Father. All creation exists only with reference to Him otherwise it would nto even exist.

Old Jack

God created Michael direct--first and last--all other things created through him.

Quote from kjw47

Proverbs 8
I, Wisdom, share a home with shrewdness and have knowledge and discretion. 13 To fear the Lord is to hate evil.

22 “The Lord made me at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago.
23 I was formed before ancient times, from the beginning, before the earth began.
24 I was born when there were no watery depths and no springs filled with water. 25 I was delivered
before the mountains and hills were established,27 I was there when He established the heavens,

In the above passage, he is speaking of "Wisdom". Not Jesus being formed. Corresponding with this, let's take a look at what the word says about Jesus...

Hebrews 1:8
8 but to the Son:

Your throne, God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of Your kingdom
is a scepter of justice. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
this is why God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of joy rather than Your companions.
10 And:

In the beginning, Lord, You established the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands;
11 they will perish, but You remain. They will all wear out like clothing;

Let's take a look at your next quote...

Revelation 3
“The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Originator of God’s creation says:

This verse does not say that Jesus was created. The speaker [who is Jesus] is stating that he is the Amen, the faithful and true witness and the originator of God's creation... which is all things that have been created...

try again... :unsure:

Trinity translations are filled with error, that contradicts Jesus. like your Hebrew post

 

[shturt678]

God created Michael direct--first and last--all other things created through him.



Trinity translations are filled with error, that contradicts Jesus. like your Hebrew post

Thank you for your response again!

Decades ago it was Jn.1:1c that affirmed Jesus = God grammatically and contextually followed by v.14 which firmed things up even before I was aware of Heb.1:3 & Acts3:13.

If you run only with the English Bible translations, more often results either "Jesus" = / = God or "Jesus" = God.

Old Jack

 

[JoJoRoss]

God created Michael direct--first and last--all other things created through him.

Hi kjw47,

Can you please show me bible verses that state Jesus is the Archangel Michael? Thanks!


Gods Peace,
JoJo

 

[kjw47]

Who did God appoint to do battle with satan?-Jesus--Who did God appoint as king of his kingdom?--Jesus

The war in heaven--Michael leads gods armies and battles satan and his demons and is victorius and casts them to the vicinity of the earth. The is the ride of the white( righteous) horse at rev 6--he receives his crown--Jesus is Gods appointed king--but its Michael getting the crown.
Har mageddon-- Jesus rides the white horse and leads Gods armies to the earth to cast satan and his demons in the abyss and rid Gods earth of all wickedness-- Gods kingdom takes control forever.( after satan is loosed for a little while--then him and all who follow get cast into the lake of fire--destruction.
1 thess 4:16--describes Jesus coming back--with the voice of the archangel--his voice. ---- Jesus took both rides--Jesus is Michael.

 

[Angelina]

Jesus is not Michael. Michael is an archangel and Jesus has always existed. Angels have been created by God but Jesus has not been created. God Has not changed and neither has his word. However, if you are a man-made religion that writes their own doctrines, then you would need to have an updated bible to keep up with those changes. The New World Translation is organic, forever evolving and made to order.

 

[JoJoRoss]

Who did God appoint to do battle with satan?-Jesus--Who did God appoint as king of his kingdom?--Jesus

The war in heaven--Michael leads gods armies and battles satan and his demons and is victorius and casts them to the vicinity of the earth. The is the ride of the white( righteous) horse at rev 6--he receives his crown--Jesus is Gods appointed king--but its Michael getting the crown.
Har mageddon-- Jesus rides the white horse and leads Gods armies to the earth to cast satan and his demons in the abyss and rid Gods earth of all wickedness-- Gods kingdom takes control forever.( after satan is loosed for a little while--then him and all who follow get cast into the lake of fire--destruction.
1 thess 4:16--describes Jesus coming back--with the voice of the archangel--his voice. ---- Jesus took both rides--Jesus is Michael.

kjw47,

Revelation 12:7-9-Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Jude 1:9-But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.”


These are the only two verses in the entire bible that have Michael the archangel/angel in them. Just like Gabriel, Michael is an angel of the Lord. Let's follow the Word of God and not the traditions of men.


Gods Peace,
JoJo

 

[DanielGarneau]

HammerStone's series of verses is one worth memorizing and meditating : "John 5:18 HCSB This is why the Jews began trying all the more to kill Him: Not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. John 1:1, John 8:24, John 8:58, John 10:30-33, John 20:28, Colossians 2:8-9, Philippians 2:5-8, Hebrews 1:8 (lifted from Psalm 45:6) and many, many others testify to a Jesus where, as Colossians 2:8 says, the Godhead dwelled fully."

So is Wormowood's very first posting in the forum Defending the Trinity : "There has been a lot of debate about the nature and biblical validity of the Trinity on various posts recently. I have decided to start a new post on this issue so that the other forums can stay on topic.

"The Church has defended the biblical validity to the Trinity throughout history. However, there is a lot of confusion among Christians and non-Christians on this topic because there is very little teaching done about the Trinity in local churches. This leads to all kinds of poor analogies and confusion as to whether there is really any biblical support for the notion in the first place. I contend that there is a tremendous about of biblical support for the concept which is precisely why the Church has passionately defended this doctrine throughout history.

"The evidence shows:

1. Jesus declares himself to be Divine.
2. Biblical authors speak of Jesus' Divinity.
3. The Bible often lists Trinitarian formulas.
4. The testimony of early church fathers shows this to be their clear understanding.
5. Messianic prophecies point to a Divine King.
6. Messianic prophecies that God would dwell among us.

"Since room does not permit me to go into detail on all of these issues in the opening post, let me just highlight each.

"1. Jesus points to his eternal pre-existence in John 8:56-59. What is striking about this passage is that the opponents of Jesus understood Jesus to be making a clear declaration of his divinity (which is why they wanted to kill him). Jesus NEVER corrects them or tells them they have misunderstood his claims about himself. Rather, his response shows that they have understood him correctly. In fact, Jesus uses the term "Son of God" in a divine sense. Jesus could not have been condemned to death if his implications with the term "son of God" was merely indicating an honorary title or that of merely a holy individual. Also, this is the ONLY issue that Jesus responded to at his trial which resulted in the charge of "blasphemy" (not a charge that would have been possible if the claim was merely to be the Christ.) Moreover, Jesus declared that he was equal in honor (John 5:22-23) and identity (John 10:30-31; 14:8-11) with God.

"2. There are numerous texts which point to the deity of Jesus. Col. 2:9 declares that the "fullness of God" dwelt in Jesus. Philippians 2:6 says that Jesus existed in the form of God and possessed "equality" with God. Paul declares that he was given authority to be an Apostle by BOTH Jesus and God (Gal. 1:1). Romans 9:5 declares that Jesus is God who is forever blessed. John 1 declares the "Word was God" (which is the most likely interpretation from the Greek in spite of what JW's teach). John 20:28 Thomas declares Jesus to be "my Lord and my God." 1 John 5:20 declares Jesus to be "the true God" and the source of eternal life. Hebrews 1:3 says that Jesus is the "radiance" of God's glory and he holds all things together. More texts could be referenced, but let this suffice for now.

"3. Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit are used in a formula many times in the Bible and in differing orders. Moreover, the "name" not "names" of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit referenced which unites the three into one heading. See Matthew 28:19; 2 Cor. 1:21-22; 13:14; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Cor. 12:4-6; Eph. 4:4-6)

"4. Ignatius - "I bid you farewell in our God, Jesus Christ" Irenaeus - "...to Christ, our Lord, God, Savior and King..."

"5. The messiah-king is to be worshipped (Psalm 2:1). The messiah-king is referred to as "God" (Ps. 45:6). The "branch" is to wear the name "The LORD our righteousness" (Jeremiah 23:5-6). The term used here is God's special name YHWH. God would send the "breaker" to lead his people out of bondage (Micah 2:12-13). This "breaker" would be called "the LORD at their head" (again, the name YHWH is used). Micah prophesied a ruler to come and shepherd God's people and give them peace (Micah 5:2-5) and this shepherd is said to have existed throughout eternity past.

"6. Plus there are multiple prophecies of God being among his people used in reference to Jesus (Isaiah 7:14; 9:6-7). Finally, there are many NT passages that refer to YHWH in the OT that are used in reference to Jesus (Joel 2:32; Ps. 68:18; Is. 45:23-24; Psalm 102; Deut. 10:17).

"In sum, don't buy the line that there is no biblical or historical support for the Trinity. There is a mountain of evidence. The Bible is abundantly clear and the early church understood Christ in this way. Feel free to make comments or ask questions about these or other texts not listed on this important topic."

These are not complete presentations, of course, but they do provide very important passages of the Scriptures that can help a seeker come to the point of confessing Jesus as Lord.

Personally I prayed today for those on the Defending the Trinity forum claiming that Jesus cannot be God, I prayed that the Spirit of Christ (2 Corinthians 3:17) may bless them with all of His might, by leading them to accept what has clearly and abundantly been revealed about Jesus Christ in the Scriptures, as shown above by Angelina, UHCAIan, HammerStone, JojoRoss, and Randor.

In Christ our Lord,
Daniel Garneau

 

[shturt678]

Just making sure we dot our eye's and cross the Ts, ie, Rev.12:7, etc. It's an abstract, rationalizing deduction that Christ alone is able to conquer Satan, and that, therefore, "Michael" must here signify Christ. Did Christ have to take "his angels" along with him in order to win this battle? One is not rid of the angels by making Michael = Christ. How can the woman's child who is snatched to the throne in v.5 now suddenly appear as Michael whether contextually or grammatically?

No robbing Christ of His deity here.

This is not a picture of the battle of the Savior which he fought against Satan here on earth and that ended with His enthronement at God's right hand, but a picture of the effect of Christ's exaltation.

Old Jack

btw wish my name was Daniel, ie, good job! My name is only non-biblical Jack, however hope I make it?

 

[brakelite]

Connecting the dots.....

Isa 44:6 Thus said Jehovah, king of Israel, And his Redeemer, Jehovah of Hosts: ‘I am the first, and I the last, And besides Me there is no God.

...and asking the question, the last book of the Bible; Who is it a revelation of????......
Revel. 1:8:I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

11 ‘I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last’; and, ‘What thou dost see, write in a scroll, and send to the seven assemblies that are in Asia; to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.’
12 And I did turn to see the voice that did speak with me, and having turned, I saw seven golden lamp-stands,
13 and in the midst of the seven lamp-stands, one like to the Son of Man,......

.....18 and he who is living, and I did become dead, and, lo, I am living to the ages of the ages. Amen! and I have the keys of the hades and of the death.


Revel.22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.




On the subject of Michael....

First, allow me to make it absolutely crystal clear that I am not a Jehovah's witness, at least in the sense of being a member of the watchtower org. Second, nowhere in scripture does it say that Michael is an angel. Don't get hung up about Michael 'must be an angel' therefore Jesus cannot be. Archangel in the literal Greek ἀρχάγγελος as a term merely means 'chief of the angels'. It does not mean 'one of the angels'. Just as the US president is Commander in chief of the armed forces, this does not mean he needs to be a soldier.

You may be interested to know that Jewish tradition and writings recognise Michael as the advocate of Israel who mediated in many ways.
He prevented Isaac's sacrifice (Yalkut Reubeni; Wayera); wrestled with Jacob (Targun Gen 32:25); was advocate when Israel deserved death at the red sea (Exodus Rabbah 18:5); led Israel during the 40 years in the wilderness (Abravanel to Exodus 23:20); gave Moses the tables of stone (Apoc.Moses 1); instructed Moses at Sinai (Bk Jubilees i. 27, ii 1); destroyed the army of Sennacherib (midr. Exod. 185); was one of the angels who visited Abraham (Yoma 37, Shebu'oth35b footnote); was Israel's guardian angel (Yoma 77); and ministers in the heavenly sanctuary. (Menahoth 110). IN several of these instances Christian scholars equate these instances with Jesus.

For me though the most compelling evidence is that of the testimony of Paul when he said quote: "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise...."
I am sure we all know that no mere angel can raise the dead with his voice. It is Christ Himself Who speaks the word of life to the dead. Who calls the dead to life when He comes.

And to confirm this John said in John 5 quoting Jesus: " Verily verily I say unto you, the hour is coming and now is when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God and they that hear shall live...". and a little further on, "Marvel niot at this, for the hour is coming in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice and shall come forth...."

Now, God does not make a huge point of this equating Michael with Jesus. No reason why He should. It is no big deal. It takes nothing away from Christ's divinity (so long as you are not JW) and doesn't raise a mere angel to divine status. Michael is simply the OT name of the Angel of the Presence that guided Israel. We know Him as Jesus. Personally, I don't see the fuss. It is not a big issue with me, it is simply one of those minor beliefs that after some deeper Bible study one comes up with. It is not salvational and has no bearing upon one's destiny either way.

Now the following was brought up by a previous poster....Daniel 10:13 - But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia....and the obvious question....

If there were only one archangel or chief of the angels or ruler over the angels, why would Daniel not have simply called him THE chief prince?

The term, “one of the chief princes” in Daniel 10:13 is translated badly. It makes it appear as if He is merely “one” of the princes, when in fact He is the Chief Prince. The word “one” in this passage comes from the Hebrew word “echad” which also means “first” as in “first day” in Genesis 1:5. When you translate the verse correctly it states that Michael is the first, or highest of the chief princes.

Youngs literal translation clarifies it...13 ‘And the head of the kingdom of Persia is standing over-against me twenty and one days, and lo, Michael, first of the chief heads, hath come in to help me, and I have remained there near the kings of Persia;

Finally, Jacks challenge with the mention of Revelation 12, and the battle between Michael and His angels and the devil and his angels. One must realize that this was not a physical battle with weapons of warfare as we may imagine. This was a war between spiritual beings using spiritual weapons. It was a war of ideas. Of words. Of principles. It is the swame spiritual war we must fight every day of our lives. Satan instituted this war , not with guns or swords, but with lies. With the idea that God's rule and sovereignty was somehow inadequate and deficient. That He was unfair. This battle against the nature and character of God has not ceased since, and it was to answr decisively this controversy of thecharacter of God and His laws that Jesus came. And with the help of angels, He overcame, not just on earth, but throughout all the universe, the question was decided. God is love...God is just...God is merciful and gracious and the justifier of him who believes. Calvary finally exposed Satan's lies. And subsequently in heaven any doubts among the remaining angels were forever banished, along with any sympathy for the rebels.

Note...
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Verse 10 seems to directly equate the power of Christ with the casting down of the serpent.

 

[shturt678]

Connecting the dots.....

Isa 44:6 Thus said Jehovah, king of Israel, And his Redeemer, Jehovah of Hosts: ‘I am the first, and I the last, And besides Me there is no God.

...and asking the question, the last book of the Bible; Who is it a revelation of????......
Revel. 1:8:I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

11 ‘I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last’; and, ‘What thou dost see, write in a scroll, and send to the seven assemblies that are in Asia; to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.’
12 And I did turn to see the voice that did speak with me, and having turned, I saw seven golden lamp-stands,
13 and in the midst of the seven lamp-stands, one like to the Son of Man,......

.....18 and he who is living, and I did become dead, and, lo, I am living to the ages of the ages. Amen! and I have the keys of the hades and of the death.


Revel.22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.




On the subject of Michael....

First, allow me to make it absolutely crystal clear that I am not a Jehovah's witness, at least in the sense of being a member of the watchtower org. Second, nowhere in scripture does it say that Michael is an angel.

Thank you for your caring and response!

Only a head's up,ie, Jude 9, "But Michael, the archangel..."



Don't get hung up about Michael 'must be an angel' therefore Jesus cannot be. Archangel in the literal Greek ἀρχάγγελος as a term merely means 'chief of the angels'. It does not mean 'one of the angels'. Just as the US president is Commander in chief of the armed forces, this does not mean he needs to be a soldier.

You may be interested to know that Jewish tradition and writings recognise Michael as the advocate of Israel who mediated in many ways.
He prevented Isaac's sacrifice (Yalkut Reubeni; Wayera); wrestled with Jacob (Targun Gen 32:25); was advocate when Israel deserved death at the red sea (Exodus Rabbah 18:5); led Israel during the 40 years in the wilderness (Abravanel to Exodus 23:20); gave Moses the tables of stone (Apoc.Moses 1); instructed Moses at Sinai (Bk Jubilees i. 27, ii 1); destroyed the army of Sennacherib (midr. Exod. 185); was one of the angels who visited Abraham (Yoma 37, Shebu'oth35b footnote); was Israel's guardian angel (Yoma 77); and ministers in the heavenly sanctuary. (Menahoth 110). IN several of these instances Christian scholars equate these instances with Jesus.

For me though the most compelling evidence is that of the testimony of Paul when he said quote: "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise...."
I am sure we all know that no mere angel can raise the dead with his voice. It is Christ Himself Who speaks the word of life to the dead. Who calls the dead to life when He comes.

And to confirm this John said in John 5 quoting Jesus: " Verily verily I say unto you, the hour is coming and now is when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God and they that hear shall live...". and a little further on, "Marvel niot at this, for the hour is coming in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice and shall come forth...."

Now, God does not make a huge point of this equating Michael with Jesus. No reason why He should. It is no big deal. It takes nothing away from Christ's divinity (so long as you are not JW) and doesn't raise a mere angel to divine status. Michael is simply the OT name of the Angel of the Presence that guided Israel. We know Him as Jesus. Personally, I don't see the fuss. It is not a big issue with me, it is simply one of those minor beliefs that after some deeper Bible study one comes up with. It is not salvational and has no bearing upon one's destiny either way.

Now the following was brought up by a previous poster....Daniel 10:13 - But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia....and the obvious question....

If there were only one archangel or chief of the angels or ruler over the angels, why would Daniel not have simply called him THE chief prince?

The term, “one of the chief princes” in Daniel 10:13 is translated badly. It makes it appear as if He is merely “one” of the princes, when in fact He is the Chief Prince. The word “one” in this passage comes from the Hebrew word “echad” which also means “first” as in “first day” in Genesis 1:5. When you translate the verse correctly it states that Michael is the first, or highest of the chief princes.

Youngs literal translation clarifies it...13 ‘And the head of the kingdom of Persia is standing over-against me twenty and one days, and lo, Michael, first of the chief heads, hath come in to help me, and I have remained there near the kings of Persia;

Finally, Jacks challenge with the mention of Revelation 12, and the battle between Michael and His angels and the devil and his angels. One must realize that this was not a physical battle with weapons of warfare as we may imagine. This was a war between spiritual beings using spiritual weapons. It was a war of ideas. Of words. Of principles. It is the swame spiritual war we must fight every day of our lives. Satan instituted this war , not with guns or swords, but with lies. With the idea that God's rule and sovereignty was somehow inadequate and deficient. That He was unfair. This battle against the nature and character of God has not ceased since, and it was to answr decisively this controversy of thecharacter of God and His laws that Jesus came. And with the help of angels, He overcame, not just on earth, but throughout all the universe, the question was decided. God is love...God is just...God is merciful and gracious and the justifier of him who believes. Calvary finally exposed Satan's lies. And subsequently in heaven any doubts among the remaining angels were forever banished, along with any sympathy for the rebels.

Note...
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Verse 10 seems to directly equate the power of Christ with the casting down of the serpent.

Old Jack

 

[kjw47]

kjw47,

Revelation 12:7-9-Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Jude 1:9-But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.”


These are the only two verses in the entire bible that have Michael the archangel/angel in them. Just like Gabriel, Michael is an angel of the Lord. Let's follow the Word of God and not the traditions of men.


Gods Peace,
JoJo

Michael is mentioned more than that--how about Daniel 12: 1--where it says it will be Michael who stands up for the sons?

No Michael is not like Gabriel--Michael is the only one called archangel--chief of the angels--2nd in command--he came to earth and stood up for the sons of men.

 

[JoJoRoss]

Michael is mentioned more than that--how about Daniel 12: 1--where it says it will be Michael who stands up for the sons?

Correct my fault (4 times is Michael mentioned in scripture)

No Michael is not like Gabriel--Michael is the only one called archangel--chief of the angels--2nd in command--he came to earth and stood up for the sons of men.

[SIZE=12pt]Michael is called “the prince of thy people [ Israel] in the book of Daniel:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]In Dan 10 Christ tells Daniel that Michael had come to help Him withstand the prince of Persia, so Christ could come and show Daniel what would befall Israel in the latter days:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Dan 10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=12pt]“The latter days” are right now, and the latter days come at this time only upon those who are in Christ.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world [ aions] are come.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Apparently Michael is “One of the chief princes" an archangel through whom Christ works with His elect. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt] Is Michael the only angel whose name we are given? No, he is not. Another angel who is sent to reveal God’s will is named Gabriel.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Gabriel was sent to cause Daniel to understand the vision of the two- horned ram being attacked by the he- goat with one horn which horn was broken and replaced by four lesser horns out of which came a little horn which became great and caused the daily sacrifice to be taken away and cast down. Gabriel appears again in the next chapter of Daniel where he is again sent to “give Daniel skill and understanding of the vision of the seventy weeks prophecy which leads again to the casting down of the daily sacrifice and to the same abomination of desolation. Gabriel causes Daniel to see that the visions “are one” (Gen 41:26).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Dan 8:15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

Dan 8:16 And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Those who are “greatly loved” are given to understand the mind and words of God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]We learn more about Gabriel’s function in the invisible realm of the spirit in Luk 1, where he is once more sent to make Zacharias, the father of John the baptist “and show Zacharias glad tidings".[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Dan 9:21 Yea, whiles I [ was] speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

Dan 9:22 And he informed [ me], and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

Dan 9:23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]The last time Gabriel is mentioned is in this same first chapter of Luke where he is sent to inform Mary of the impending birth of Christ.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Luk 1:18 And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.

Luk 1:19 And the angel answering said unto him[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt], I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]It is Gabriel who is sent to “give skill and understanding”, whereas Michael is the archangel who “stands up for and fights for Israel". Both Angels of the Lord.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Gods Peace,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]JoJo[/SIZE]

 

[Mr.Bride]

For those who don't believe.... It is late in the day.. Seek God while He can still be found. Let the Holy Spirit lead you into Truth. Pray, if you can...Repent, if you can.. Ask for forgiveness and seek the baptism of the Holy Ghost. There is no other Way but Jesus. Ask for open eyes. You don't know when the last time is that God is going to beckon you. Don't cross the line... Don't be deceived.. Pray... Cry out for Truth... Don't be disobedient.. Stop being rebellious.. Warning comes before judgment... Pray... Why is it so hard? But then so easy to go against the grain. You fight against God. Are you strong enough to defeat Him? Stop being stiff-necked and hard hearted. Let god replace that stony thing with a heart of flesh. Can you see? Can you hear? **Be certain of God**

 

[RANDOR]

VERY GOOD..............Mr. Bride

K E E P I T S I M P L E

 

[JoJoRoss]

But then so easy to go against the grain

Mr. Bride,

It is not easy to go against the majority of Christians who DON'T want to believe what the Word of God says:

• God is totally Sovereign. That is, He is in control of EVERYTHING and ALL THE TIME. Many people actually claim to believe this, but they really really don't.

• The words "everlasting" "evermore," "forever," "for ever AND EVER[?]," and "eternal" are nowhere found even once in any Hebrew or Greek manuscript from which our modern language bibles are translated.

• Man does NOT have a "free" will that can make decisions independent of his Sovereign God.

• Man is mortal, not immortal as Christendom teaches. Therefore, when people die, they are DEAD, not alive in a different geographical location.

• The ONLY hope for believers is that there will be a RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.
  
  [There are unscriptural] Biblical doctrines that are of no value to Christendom. They teach that dead people go to a place called hell and a place call heaven WHEN THEY ARE DEAD!

• Hell is not the translation of any word in either the Hebrew or Greek Manuscripts.

• Heaven and hades (often translated hell) are not geographical locations.

• God will save all mankind, seeing that He IS THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD.

• God is a family and not a trinity.

• We are under a New Covenant, and the old is passing away.

• God is LOVE (no really, He really is, He would never torture most of His creation in fire for all eternity).

Gods Peace,
JoJo