questions about christian doctrine

[rainjayF2]

Hi beautiful people

1. Jewish friend told me that the trinity is contradictory how would you answer
2. what is superceding theology and how is it antijewish
3. what must one believe to be part of the church body
4. what were the politics of Jesus
5. why is Islam false

 

[Heart2Soul]

Hi beautiful people

1. Jewish friend told me that the trinity is contradictory how would you answer
2. what is superceding theology and how is it antijewish
3. what must one believe to be part of the church body
4. what were the politics of Jesus
5. why is Islam false

Welcome to the forum!
The questions you have are good questions and I am sure members here will be happy to answer them. But just the first question alone will probably result in various answers so be prepared.
God Bless

 

[Abaxvahl]

Hi beautiful people

1. Jewish friend told me that the trinity is contradictory how would you answer
2. what is superceding theology and how is it antijewish
3. what must one believe to be part of the church body
4. what were the politics of Jesus
5. why is Islam false

1) The doctrine of the Trinity set forth by the Lord Jesus and confirmed and meditated upon countless times in His Church has no contradictions in it. People who say this are saying it for one of the following reasons: a) they misunderstand it or are ignorant as to what it is, b) they are intentionally misrepresenting it, c) they are simply being obstinate in irrationality. Here is a summary of the faith Jesus delivered to the Church (and the true doctrine of the Trinity), behold there are no contradictions in it:

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; he was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; from thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets. In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

2) I assume they mean "supercessionism," something people often call the view that the Church is Israel. It is said to be antisemitic because it states that fleshly unfaithful people called "Jews" are not the People of God. This is in fact not the case: the People of God has always been in every place and since Adam the Church (lit. "Assembly"), nothing has been replaced. People who are not faithful to God are not in it, and the Church is Israel, for there is one true Israel of God. In a word, it's just a slanderous accusation.

3) The summary of doctrine given above, although those who do not consciously hold this can be saved (that is, be part of the Church in a mystical way, for this is necessary for salvation), so do not say that all who deny it are damned. Not only is this manifestly false it usurps the role of judgment the Lord Jesus alone has. There are many who have believed this and been damned, and many who denied it who were saved. But to be part of the "body" which I take to mean the Earthly body, the Institution, visibly, such is necessary.

4) In short: that He is the Lord of all things, and this was given to Him from God the Father and not from anyone on Earth, He (Jesus) is the King of Glory.

5) It contradicts what the Lord Jesus said. For instance, they deny His divinity, they deny that He was crucified (most of them do at least), they claim that the Scriptures Jesus used were corrupted, they claim that St. Paul was not the Lord's Jesus Apostle, and many other false things. It goes against all we believe (and what we believe comes from the King of Glory) and so is self-condemned.

God bless, welcome to the forum.

P.S. if you desire to always know how to find the faith Jesus taught on Earth and where it is I'd recommend this short but enlightening work by St. Vincent of Lerins, a monk who died around 445AD and wrote a "Commonitorium" or "Remembrancer" on that very subject. It is a sure guide and does not miss the mark even slightly as to the what the faith is or how it is found and discerned among the many shameful pretenses in the world. Wheat and tares, watch for 'em.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Hi beautiful people

Hello....are you a student doing research for an assignment?

1. Jewish friend told me that the trinity is contradictory how would you answer

The trinity contradicts the Jewish Shema...
Deuteronomy 6:4...
"Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one. דשְׁמַ֖ע יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ יְהֹוָ֥ה | אֶחָֽד:יְהֹוָ֥ה

The Lord is...יְהֹוָ֥ה Yahweh...Jehovah. He is not a triune god.

2. what is superceding theology and how is it antijewish

To supersede is to supplant or to take away something and replace it with something else.
The Shema demonstrated that the Jewish God was "one"...Christianity claimed that he was "three".
The Jews believe in an earthly Kingdom of God with an earthly human Leader/Messiah, which in Christianity was replaced by a heavenly Kingdom and a heavenly Messiah.
The Jews as God's people were replaced by the followers of Christ.

3. what must one believe to be part of the church body

That Jesus was the Christ and that all who believed that he was the promised Messiah had to follow all of his teachings and share them with others.

4. what were the politics of Jesus

Jesus had no political views and so remained politically neutral, even though his people were under the dominion of Rome.
He said that his Kingdom was "no part of this world."

5. why is Islam false

Islam is founded on the first son of Abraham, Ishmael, whom Abraham was told to drive out of his camp because of the taunting he was giving to his younger brother, Isaac.....who was born by the actions of God's spirit to a woman long past child bearing years.

Ismael's birth was through the natural act of surrogacy.....his mother being Sarah's Egyptian hand maiden.
Jesus revealed that salvation originated with the Jews, from Abraham through Isaac and Jacob, not through Ishmael.

Hope that helps....

 

[Tong2020]

Hi beautiful people

1. Jewish friend told me that the trinity is contradictory how would you answer
2. what is superceding theology and how is it antijewish
3. what must one believe to be part of the church body
4. what were the politics of Jesus
5. why is Islam false

<<<Jewish friend told me that the trinity is contradictory how would you answer>>>

Don’t expect otherwise, if your friend is not a believer of the gospel concerning Jesus. For it takes to have the Spirit of God to be able to discern the things of the Spirit of God. As also, do not expect one who does not believe in God and in Jesus Christ to discern the things of the Spirit of God, such as the triune nature of God. Such is foolishness to him.

Tong
R4456

 

[Deborah_]

Hi beautiful people

1. Jewish friend told me that the trinity is contradictory how would you answer
2. what is superceding theology and how is it antijewish
3. what must one believe to be part of the church body
4. what were the politics of Jesus
5. why is Islam false

1) The Trinity is a paradox, not a contradiction. Christians believe in ONE God - not three - but the One God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
2) I don't know the term "superceding theology". I've heard of "replacement theology", but I don't personally believe it.
3) One must believe that Jesus is the Son of God.
4) Jesus avoided politics. His Kingdom is "not of this world" - and it makes all earthly kingdoms and states irrelevant.
5) Muslims believe that Jesus did not die on the cross, nor was He raised from the dead.

Each answer could make a discussion thread in its own right.

 

[Episkopos]

Hi beautiful people

1. Jewish friend told me that the trinity is contradictory how would you answer

The trinity doctrine was invented by the church of Rome early in the second century, as they will readily admit to, in order to give them control over the holy Spirit. If they had not done that then they would be dependent on God's intervention for the power of the Spirit. So then the power and life of the Spirit was replaced by the "authority" and liturgy of the church. So this is about control and pragmatism. Imagine being powerless in regard to having an exclusive claim to being THE church but lacking the power to baptize in the POWER of the Spirit? So this was reduced to the "name" of the Spirit. People exchanged the life of Christ for a religion ABOUT the Lord. And the crazy thing about the reformation is that it went too far in a misunderstanding of grace to make it about preserving carnality without rectifying the false doctrine of the trinity. Jesus IS the Son of God, fully God and fully man...But the Father said "I will pour MY Spirit out on all flesh.

Is the Spirit of Christ also a different person? Notice what Paul says:

1 Cor. 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

If the Spirit of God is a different person then is the spirit in a man a different person?

2. what is superceding theology and how is it antijewish

The gospel goes deeper than any temporal human identity whether that be being a Jew or nonJew, male or female, slave or free. So if a person takes offense to that then that person is someone who uses a carnal identity to resist the Spirit.

3. what must one believe to be part of the church body

We will not be judged by our beliefs but rather what we have done with what we have been given. Beliefs are human and will change. But faith sees God as He is. So the problem is with the shallowness of people. God will only look to the person who is broken inwardly. He provides the faith to the one who needs Him. Otherwise it is just vain religion.

4. what were the politics of Jesus

Jesus has no interest in worldly affairs as we also should not. There is a different realm to consider where all power, life, love, and peace come from. That is what the world needs. There is no need to fight over the scraps that we are limited to in the flesh.

5. why is Islam false

It's not that it is false. it is merely half-true like all religions...even the religion that has replaced the true faith OF Christ which brings us into a direct fellowship with the living God. From what distance are we comfortable following Jesus at?

 

[Grailhunter]

Hi beautiful people

1. Jewish friend told me that the trinity is contradictory how would you answer
2. what is superceding theology and how is it antijewish
3. what must one believe to be part of the church body
4. what were the politics of Jesus
5. why is Islam false

The Trinity...this word is not in the Bible....it is a human formula.
For a look into what the earlier Christians were thinking I will submit this. The creed was used to summarize Christian doctrine and as a baptismal statement of faith to insure that the person understood the most elementary beliefs of Christianity. Serving not only as a test of understand the correct doctrine, but also recited in church. The earliest surviving version of what would later became known as the Apostles’ Creed, called the “Old Roman Creed,” may have been used during the first first century but was certainly used as early as the second century The earliest written form of this creed is found in a letter that Marcellus of Ancyra wrote in Greek to Julius, the bishop of Rome, about AD 341.

I believe in God the Father almighty; and in Christ Jesus His only Son, our Lord, Who was born from the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, Who under Pontius Pilate was crucified and buried, on the third day rose again from the dead, ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, whence he will come to judge the living and the dead; and in the Holy Spirit, the holy Church, the remission of sins, the resurrection of the flesh, life everlasting.

Please note that there are three "persons" referred to here. Christ said that, The Father is greater than I. The Apostles understood there was a distinction between the three. Here in the creed God the Father is referred is to as God and Christ as Lord. This carries over to the Bible and if you look you will find that many of the texts written by the Apostles ended referring to God the Father as God and Christ as Lord. Beyond that the storyline of the four Gospels are about two Gods interacting and referring to each other.... “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.” etc etc.

The detailed explain on this and other topics can be found at
Grailhunter’s Corner

The two primary formulas for the Trinity are the three persons in one God formula....or Three Gods united formula. Trinity as in tri-unity as opposed to Trinity as in triune. As far as salvation it does not matter both attests to Yahweh, God the Father Almighty, Yeshua, God the Son and Savior, and God the Holy Spirit. But the three persons in one God formula skews and ignores the understanding of dozens of scriptures.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

3. what must one believe to be part of the church body

Precious friend, Welcome. This must come First: One Must believe The Gospel
Of The GRACE Of God, to be part of The Church, Which Is HIS Body:
God's Simple Will!

Without this belief, discussion of all other spiritual matters is Confusing,
UNfruitful, And foolish, because there is NO Indwelling Holy Spirit,
for Teaching! (1 Corinthians 2:13):

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for
they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are
spiritually discerned.

Grace And Peace!

 

[rainjayF2]

Welcome to the forum!
The questions you have are good questions and I am sure members here will be happy to answer them. But just the first question alone will probably result in various answers so be prepared.
God Bless

thank you!

 

[rainjayF2]

1) The doctrine of the Trinity set forth by the Lord Jesus and confirmed and meditated upon countless times in His Church has no contradictions in it. People who say this are saying it for one of the following reasons: a) they misunderstand it or are ignorant as to what it is, b) they are intentionally misrepresenting it, c) they are simply being obstinate in irrationality. Here is a summary of the faith Jesus delivered to the Church (and the true doctrine of the Trinity), behold there are no contradictions in it:

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; he was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; from thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets. In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

2) I assume they mean "supercessionism," something people often call the view that the Church is Israel. It is said to be antisemitic because it states that fleshly unfaithful people called "Jews" are not the People of God. This is in fact not the case: the People of God has always been in every place and since Adam the Church (lit. "Assembly"), nothing has been replaced. People who are not faithful to God are not in it, and the Church is Israel, for there is one true Israel of God. In a word, it's just a slanderous accusation.

3) The summary of doctrine given above, although those who do not consciously hold this can be saved (that is, be part of the Church in a mystical way, for this is necessary for salvation), so do not say that all who deny it are damned. Not only is this manifestly false it usurps the role of judgment the Lord Jesus alone has. There are many who have believed this and been damned, and many who denied it who were saved. But to be part of the "body" which I take to mean the Earthly body, the Institution, visibly, such is necessary.

4) In short: that He is the Lord of all things, and this was given to Him from God the Father and not from anyone on Earth, He (Jesus) is the King of Glory.

5) It contradicts what the Lord Jesus said. For instance, they deny His divinity, they deny that He was crucified (most of them do at least), they claim that the Scriptures Jesus used were corrupted, they claim that St. Paul was not the Lord's Jesus Apostle, and many other false things. It goes against all we believe (and what we believe comes from the King of Glory) and so is self-condemned.

God bless, welcome to the forum.

P.S. if you desire to always know how to find the faith Jesus taught on Earth and where it is I'd recommend this short but enlightening work by St. Vincent of Lerins, a monk who died around 445AD and wrote a "Commonitorium" or "Remembrancer" on that very subject. It is a sure guide and does not miss the mark even slightly as to the what the faith is or how it is found and discerned among the many shameful pretenses in the world. Wheat and tares, watch for 'em.

Very detailed thank you for the book I have started reading

Thank you for the explanations and I don't see a contradiction I'll tell him

 

[rainjayF2]

Hello....are you a student doing research for an assignment?


The trinity contradicts the Jewish Shema...
Deuteronomy 6:4...
"Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one. דשְׁמַ֖ע יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ יְהֹוָ֥ה | אֶחָֽד:יְהֹוָ֥ה

The Lord is...יְהֹוָ֥ה Yahweh...Jehovah. He is not a triune god.


To supersede is to supplant or to take away something and replace it with something else.
The Shema demonstrated that the Jewish God was "one"...Christianity claimed that he was "three".
The Jews believe in an earthly Kingdom of God with an earthly human Leader/Messiah, which in Christianity was replaced by a heavenly Kingdom and a heavenly Messiah.
The Jews as God's people were replaced by the followers of Christ.


That Jesus was the Christ and that all who believed that he was the promised Messiah had to follow all of his teachings and share them with others.


Jesus had no political views and so remained politically neutral, even though his people were under the dominion of Rome.
He said that his Kingdom was "no part of this world."


Islam is founded on the first son of Abraham, Ishmael, whom Abraham was told to drive out of his camp because of the taunting he was giving to his younger brother, Isaac.....who was born by the actions of God's spirit to a woman long past child bearing years.

Ismael's birth was through the natural act of surrogacy.....his mother being Sarah's Egyptian hand maiden.
Jesus revealed that salvation originated with the Jews, from Abraham through Isaac and Jacob, not through Ishmael.

Hope that helps....

I have questions because I want to take my religion more seriously and I talked to a friend about it, no assignment just me

This was very helpful especially the detail on Ishmael

are you not a christian since you don't believe the three what does this mean?

 

[rainjayF2]

<<<Jewish friend told me that the trinity is contradictory how would you answer>>>

Don’t expect otherwise, if your friend is not a believer of the gospel concerning Jesus. For it takes to have the Spirit of God to be able to discern the things of the Spirit of God. As also, do not expect one who does not believe in God and in Jesus Christ to discern the things of the Spirit of God, such as the triune nature of God. Such is foolishness to him.

Tong
R4456

How can you use the spirit

 

[rainjayF2]

1) The Trinity is a paradox, not a contradiction. Christians believe in ONE God - not three - but the One God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
2) I don't know the term "superceding theology". I've heard of "replacement theology", but I don't personally believe it.
3) One must believe that Jesus is the Son of God.
4) Jesus avoided politics. His Kingdom is "not of this world" - and it makes all earthly kingdoms and states irrelevant.
5) Muslims believe that Jesus did not die on the cross, nor was He raised from the dead.

Each answer could make a discussion thread in its own right.

Thank you

 

[rainjayF2]

The trinity doctrine was invented by the church of Rome early in the second century, as they will readily admit to, in order to give them control over the holy Spirit. If they had not done that then they would be dependent on God's intervention for the power of the Spirit. So then the power and life of the Spirit was replaced by the "authority" and liturgy of the church. So this is about control and pragmatism. Imagine being powerless in regard to having an exclusive claim to being THE church but lacking the power to baptize in the POWER of the Spirit? So this was reduced to the "name" of the Spirit. People exchanged the life of Christ for a religion ABOUT the Lord. And the crazy thing about the reformation is that it went too far in a misunderstanding of grace to make it about preserving carnality without rectifying the false doctrine of the trinity. Jesus IS the Son of God, fully God and fully man...But the Father said "I will pour MY Spirit out on all flesh.

Is the Spirit of Christ also a different person? Notice what Paul says:

1 Cor. 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

If the Spirit of God is a different person then is the spirit in a man a different person?


The gospel goes deeper than any temporal human identity whether that be being a Jew or nonJew, male or female, slave or free. So if a person takes offense to that then that person is someone who uses a carnal identity to resist the Spirit.



We will not be judged by our beliefs but rather what we have done with what we have been given. Beliefs are human and will change. But faith sees God as He is. So the problem is with the shallowness of people. God will only look to the person who is broken inwardly. He provides the faith to the one who needs Him. Otherwise it is just vain religion.




Jesus has no interest in worldly affairs as we also should not. There is a different realm to consider where all power, life, love, and peace come from. That is what the world needs. There is no need to fight over the scraps that we are limited to in the flesh.



It's not that it is false. it is merely half-true like all religions...even the religion that has replaced the true faith OF Christ which brings us into a direct fellowship with the living God. From what distance are we comfortable following Jesus at?

Thank you, I want to be on Jesus heels distance!

 

[rainjayF2]

Precious friend, Welcome. This must come First: One Must believe The Gospel
Of The GRACE Of God, to be part of The Church, Which Is HIS Body:
God's Simple Will!

Without this belief, discussion of all other spiritual matters is Confusing,
UNfruitful, And foolish, because there is NO Indwelling Holy Spirit,
for Teaching! (1 Corinthians 2:13):

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for
they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are
spiritually discerned.

Grace And Peace!

Thank you for your links and post it is helpful

 

[Aunty Jane]

I have questions because I want to take my religion more seriously and I talked to a friend about it, no assignment just me

Then the questions are good and deserve Bible based answers.

This was very helpful especially the detail on Ishmael

are you not a christian since you don't believe the three what does this mean?

I am a Christian because I reject what is a clearly blasphemous teaching that did not make it not official church doctrine till the 4th century. The first Commandment (Exodus 20:3) was NOT to have any other god in place of Yahweh, but Christendom replaced him with not one, but three gods who all occupy one “head” and can think and act independently. I find no such God in the scriptures.

Christ Jesus never once claimed to be part of a trinity. Jesus called his Father “the only true God” (John 17:3) without including himself in that definition. He told us to worship this God “alone” (Luke 4:5-8).....he never solicited worship for himself.

All the best on your spiritual journey as these last days continue to make life and decisions more difficult. Keep seeking...keep knocking....

 

[Abaxvahl]

Very detailed thank you for the book I have started reading

Thank you for the explanations and I don't see a contradiction I'll tell him

No problem. And just a heads up: the explanation you just received for why the Trinity is apparently blasphemous and violates the Commandment of God is actually not Trinitarian teaching at all, so it falls into one of the A-B-C I laid out in my post for options of why that is. Compare it with what I linked and quoted and you'll see it has nothing to do with it. God bless.

 

[Enoch111]

Hello and Welcome RainjayF2

Jewish friend told me that the trinity is contradictory how would you answer

Contradictory to whom? To Jews and Muslims? Absolutely. To God and Christ? Absolutely NOT.

The Jews hold the Torah (first five books of the Bible) to be divinely inspired. That God gave Moses every Hebrew letter found in the Torah (written only in consonants), and that there is even a Bible Code because of that.

So the first verse of the Torah speaks of God as Elohim. That is a UNI-PLURAL WORD, since "El" is singular. Thus the plurality within the Godhead is already established right there. In Hebrew when nouns end in "-im" that means they are plural nouns, e.g. Seraph and Seraphim.

But God wanted to make it clear to mankind right from the beginning that the Godhead is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So this is what we read to establish that fact: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: (Genesis 1:26) Had there been no plurality that would have said "me" and "my".

But to further remove all doubt about this we read in Genesis 3:22:
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:... Once again had there been no plurality that would have been "myself".

These English words are direct translations from the Hebrew, not simply made up by the translators. So Jews are being disingenuous when they say that there is no Trinity in the Torah. There are other examples also, but this should be enough. A word to the wise is sufficient.

 

[Tong2020]

How can you use the spirit

If you are referring to the Holy Spirit, you don’t. The Holy Spirit is God no less. You don’t use God.

Tong
R4465