Questions; Jesus, Peter, and the keys

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Illuminator

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A long list of Protestant Bible reference manuals and scholars disagree with your opinion.
Don't care.

[On Ephesians 2:20]:
Why should you care? It is the very built in nature of Protestantism to protest Protestants who studied the Bible all their lives and author reference manuals. You are a true Protestant!
I am not talking about one verse, I am talking about Peter's preeminence that is all over the NT that you arrogantly deny.
THE PRIMACY OF PETER - Scripture Catholic
 
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Saint of God

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As I explained to you in my last post - Jesus bestowed a THREEfold blessing on Simon Peter. The FIRST par (v. 17) is indeed about the revelation he received from God about Jesus. The next 2 parts pof the blessing are both Prophetic (v. 18) and Authoritative (v. 19).
That is your personal out of context interpretation.I showed you that Peter and others believed the Jesus was the messiah when they first met him, Therefore your assumption that Peter was walking around with Jesus believing that he was not the messiah then suddenly God dropped it on him is foolishness


- At the Last Sipper - Jesus tells Peter that He has prayed for HIM (singular) to shtrengthen the others.
- When Peter is restored after the Resurresction - Jesus askes Peter and Peter alone to "feed His lambs" and "tend His sheep" (John 21:15-19)
- Peter's
name appears FIRST in every list of the Apostles - though he was NOT the first Apostle chosen (Matt. 10:2; Mk 3:16; Luke 6:14; Acts 1:13).
- In Rev. 21, we see the New Jerusalem coming out of Heaven. On the twelve Foundations are the names of the Twelve Apostles.
WHOSE name do you think is on the first foundation?
Jesus had already made it clear that the last will be first...Peter was the least of the apostles.
And finally, NO - "Kepha" doesn't mean "Little Rock". "Peter" is simply an English translation of the Greek transliteration of the Aramaic term, "Kepha" - which is why Jesus called Simon. And, as I already explained - Kepha does not connote size. It simply means "ROCK".
That does not help yur argument...big rock little rock. Peter is not the rock Jesus build his church upon...Jesus was using that reasoning to confirm that he was indeed the Messiah...
Read the passage slowly
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

Ask yourself why Paul refers to him in his letters NOT as "Petros" in the Greek - but as "Cephas".
That is of no importance...Jesus is the head of the church; therefore the church is built on Jesus, not Peter.

Yes - it's funny how ALL of the same Protestant scholars I listed are corrct when when it comes to other Protestant doctrines - but they're "ALL wroing" when it comes to Peter being the "Rock" of Matt. 16:18 . . .
What rubbish are you spewing? If you are right about something in the scripture, I cannot say it is wrong, and if you say wrong I cannot say it is right. The same principle applies to the protestant scholars... Anyway protestants are just catholics without the hood. Go and learn what mother of harlots means.
 

Saint of God

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Eliakim being given the Keys to the house of David is an OT TYPE of Peter, who was given the Keys to the Kningdom of Heaven.

Only a blind person would NOT see the almost vernbbatim blessings and commissions of Authority in these 2 situations.
A type of Peter? What kind of nonsense is that? Jesus is the one who sits on the throne of David...
Luke 1:32
He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Here is your problem bro, you seem to believe the kingdom of heaven is a place somewhere in the sky...
Luke 17
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
 

Saint of God

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A long list of Protestant Bible reference manuals and scholars disagree with your opinion. Why should you care? It is the very built in nature of Protestantism to disagree with Protestants who studied the Bible all their lives and author reference manuals. I am not talking about on verse, I am talking about Peter's preeminence that is all over the NT that you arrogantly deny.
THE PRIMACY OF PETER - Scripture Catholic
Your ignorance is amazing...Protestants came out from the catholic church... they are the little harlots from the mother of harlots... You are all one lump. In the church of Jesus the messiah, those who are great become servants, and elevate those who are servants to be great...We don.t see that in thecathlic or protestant churches, do we? No, we see the leaders living in luxury and taking from the poor to satisfy their lifestyles.
 

FHII

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A long list of Protestant Bible reference manuals and scholars disagree with your opinion. Why should you care? It is the very built in nature of Protestantism to protest Protestants who studied the Bible all their lives and author reference manuals. You are a true Protestant!
I am not talking about one verse, I am talking about Peter's preeminence that is all over the NT that you arrogantly deny.
THE PRIMACY OF PETER - Scripture Catholic
Once again, I don't care.
 

Illuminator

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FICTITIOUS DIALOGUE WITH JOHN CALVIN. His words in blue.
SOURCE FOR CALVIN'S WORDS:

Institutes2.jpg

55 Critiques of John Calvin: Introduction & Master List | Dave Armstrong

OF THE PRIMACY OF THE ROMISH SEE.
*
1. Brief recapitulation. Why the subject of primacy not yet mentioned. Represented by Papists as the bond of ecclesiastical unity. Setting out with this axiom, they begin to debate about their hierarchy.
*
Hitherto we have reviewed those ecclesiastical orders which existed in the government of the primitive Church; but afterwards corrupted by time, and thereafter more and more vitiated, now only retain the name in the Papal Church, and are, in fact, nothing but mere masks, so that the contrast will enable the pious reader to judge what kind of Church that is, for revolting from which we are charged with schism.

Yet Calvin has not yet proven that the Catholic Church completely fell away (and I’m beginning to suspect he may never even offer an argument: good or bad). He simply reports cases of corruption and “concludes” (i.e., assumes) from that, that there is a total apostasy. That doesn’t follow at all. It ignores the biblical aspect of indefectibility, and even clashes with Calvin’s own previous treatment of the topic of sinners in the Church.

He assumes the Catholic Church is not what it is, or has always claimed to be; it is not (so he “reasons”) the Church of the fathers, that he thinks much more highly of; therefore, to dissent from it is not schism or scandalous; indeed, it is altogether necessary. This is viciously circular “logic.”

But, on the head and crown of the whole matter, I mean the primacy of the Roman See, from which they undertake to prove that the Catholic Church is to be found only with them, we have not yet touched, because it did not take its origin either in the institution of Christ, or the practice of the early Church,

That remains to be established. It’s one thing to have honest disagreements and for each side to give its reasoning; quite another for one side of a dispute to casually assume the opposing position is false and one’s own true, without argument, and proceed accordingly, by building a system on an unproven axiom. That’s a castle of sand or house of cards.

as did those other parts, in regard to which we have shown, that though they were ancient in their origin, they in process of time altogether degenerated, nay, assumed an entirely new form.

2. Question stated. An attempted proof from the office of High Priest among the Jews. Two answers.


The question, then, may be thus stated, Is it necessary for the true order of the hierarchy (as they term it), or of ecclesiastical order, that one See should surpass the others in dignity and power, so as to be the head of the whole body?

Yes. The Bible reveals again and again that Peter was the head of the apostles. He possessed the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and Jesus built His Church upon Peter (not just his “faith”: an antiquated, polemical position which is overwhelmingly rejected by the best exegetes of all persuasions today). The papacy is modeled after that.

We subject the Church to unjust laws if we lay this necessity upon her without sanction from the word of God.

But we do have plenty of sanction; it is Calvin who has none for his ecclesiological position.

Therefore, if our opponents would prove what they maintain, it behoves them first of all to show that this economy was instituted by Christ.

is, that they retain the head on which the unity of the Church depends, and without which it must necessarily be rent and go to pieces.


There had always been a pope, and there always will be. The office continues in full force today, almost 500 years after the “Reformation” tried in vain (mostly by smearing and propaganda) to discredit and eliminate it.

For they regard the Church as a kind of mutilated trunk if it be not subject to the Romish See as its head. Accordingly, when they debate about their hierarchy they always set out with the axiom: The Roman Pontiff (as the vicar of Christ, who is the Head of the Church) presides in his stead over the universal Church, and the Church is not rightly constituted unless that See hold the primacy over all others. The nature of this claim must, therefore, be considered, that we may not omit anything which pertains to the proper government of the Church.

Good; maybe Calvin will start to make actual arguments now. That makes my burden of reply infinitely more interesting than mere replies to unsubstantiated statements, over and over, and pointing out that circular reasoning (or none whatever: not even circular) is occurring. If Calvin makes recourse to biblical and historical arguments, then he can be soundly and roundly refuted, and there is actually something to rationally discuss, so that readers can make an informed choice of which viewpoint is more true to both Scripture and consistent Church history and received apostolic tradition.

“Entirely new” has not been proven. Calvin throughout his work has a dim understanding of development of doctrine: a tendency quite pronounced in his followers today and in many other species of Protestants.

And yet they endeavour to persuade the world that the chief and only bond of ecclesiastical unity is to adhere to the Roman See, and continue in subjection to it.

That’s how it always was from the beginning. It developed, and the Orthodox eventually dissented after a thousand years, but it has always been there. The historic proofs are extremely abundant.

I say, the prop on which they chiefly lean, when they would deprive us of the Church, and arrogate it to themselves,

The Church is what it is. It doesn’t change simply because someone like Calvin comes along and claims that it is now something quite essentially different from what it had always been for almost 1500 years. That is not “arrogating” anything or “depriving” anyone of anything. It is reality. There is a history here, and a background. Christianity consists of objective, verifiable entities and concepts; not subjective pick-and-choose relative, “make-something-whatever-you-want-it-to-be” mush.

is, that they retain the head on which the unity of the Church depends, and without which it must necessarily be rent and go to pieces.

There had always been a pope, and there always will be. The office continues in full force today, almost 500 years after the “Reformation” tried in vain (mostly by smearing and propaganda) to discredit and eliminate it.

For they regard the Church as a kind of mutilated trunk if it be not subject to the Romish See as its head. Accordingly, when they debate about their hierarchy they always set out with the axiom: The Roman Pontiff (as the vicar of Christ, who is the Head of the Church) presides in his stead over the universal Church, and the Church is not rightly constituted unless that See hold the primacy over all others. The nature of this claim must, therefore, be considered, that we may not omit anything which pertains to the proper government of the Church.

Good; maybe Calvin will start to make actual arguments now. That makes my burden of reply infinitely more interesting than mere replies to unsubstantiated statements, over and over, and pointing out that circular reasoning (or none whatever: not even circular) is occurring. If Calvin makes recourse to biblical and historical arguments, then he can be soundly and roundly refuted, and there is actually something to rationally discuss, so that readers can make an informed choice of which viewpoint is more true to both Scripture and consistent Church history and received apostolic tradition.

2. Question stated. An attempted proof from the office of High Priest among the Jews. Two answers.
*
The question, then, may be thus stated, Is it necessary for the true order of the hierarchy (as they term it), or of ecclesiastical order, that one See should surpass the others in dignity and power, so as to be the head of the whole body?


Yes. The Bible reveals again and again that Peter was the head of the apostles. He possessed the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and Jesus built His Church upon Peter (not just his “faith”: an antiquated, polemical position which is overwhelmingly rejected by the best exegetes of all persuasions today). The papacy is modeled after that.

CONTINUED





 
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BreadOfLife

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That is your personal out of context interpretation.I showed you that Peter and others believed the Jesus was the messiah when they first met him, Therefore your assumption that Peter was walking around with Jesus believing that he was not the messiah then suddenly God dropped it on him is foolishness
Then YOU believe Jesus to be a fool because HE is the one who pointed it out about Peter:

Matt. 15:17
And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
Jesus had already made it clear that the last will be first...Peter was the least of the apostles.
PRECISELY why Peter was called “Protos” (Matt. 10:2) - the FIRST Apostle – even though he was NOT the first chosen.
That does not help yur argument...big rock little rock. Peter is not the rock Jesus build his church upon...Jesus was using that reasoning to confirm that he was indeed the Messiah...

Read the passage slowly

13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
WRONG again.

You keep getting confused because you actually believe that Jesus used the words "Rock" and Peter" in verse 16 – as if they were two different words..

Jesus said in ARAMAIC - "You are Kepha and on this Kepha I will build my Church ..."
That is of no importance...Jesus is the head of the church; therefore the church is built on Jesus, not Peter.
It’s only of “no importance” because YOU can’t explain it away.
WHY did Paul refer to him as “Cephas” – and not “Petros” in the Greek??

This destroys your entire argument . . .
What rubbish are you spewing? If you are right about something in the scripture, I cannot say it is wrong, and if you say wrong I cannot say it is right. The same principle applies to the protestant scholars... Anyway protestants are just catholics without the hood. Go and learn what mother of harlots means.
And this is your entire argument in a nutshell –
Blind hatred
for the Catholic Church – and nothing more.

You certainly didn’t expend any intellect or Scriptural knowledge in your pathetic argument . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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A type of Peter? What kind of nonsense is that? Jesus is the one who sits on the throne of David...
Luke 1:32
He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Here is your problem bro, you seem to believe the kingdom of heaven is a place somewhere in the sky...
Luke 17
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Thank you for thar extremely limited understanding of Scripture.

There are MULTIPLE types and fulfillments in Scripture that all POINT to Christ – but do not involve Him directly.

David and Elizabeth
OT - "Who am I that the Ark of my Lord should come to me?" (2 Sam. 6:9)
NT - "Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43)

David and John the Baptist

OT - The When the Ark carrying the Word of God returned “David was leaping and dancing before the Lord” (2 Sam. 6:14)
NT - When Mary came into Elizabeth's presence carrying the Word of God, the baby “leaped for joy” in Elizabeth's womb (Luke 2:38)

Eve and Mary
Gen 3:15

And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”

Do your homework.
 
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Illuminator

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continued from post #47

Therefore, if our opponents would prove what they maintain, it behoves them first of all to show that this economy was instituted by Christ.

Gladly:

50 New Testament Proofs for Petrine Primacy & the Papacy

The Biblical Argument for Papal Succession

Papal Succession: A Straightforward Biblical Argument

Protestant Scholars on Matthew 16:16-19 (Nicholas Hardesty)

Armstrong vs. Collins & Walls #10: St. Peter & the Papacy

Bible on Papal & Church Infallibility

Papal Infallibility Doctrine: History (Including Luther’s Dissent at the Leipzig Disputation in 1519)

Inspired & Infallible Prophets: Analogy to Infallible Popes

For this purpose, they refer to the office of high priest under the law, and the supreme jurisdiction which God appointed at Jerusalem. But the solution is easy, and it is manifold if one does not satisfy them. First, no reason obliges us to extend what was useful in one nation to the whole world; nay, the cases of one nation and of the whole world are widely different.

Calvin often makes analogies from ancient Israel to the present Church, as we have seen several times thus far in this very examination of his views. Yet when Catholics do so, all of a sudden it is improper, simply because we draw conclusions he disagrees with? He may disagree with our explanations for the papacy, but it is far different to go after the very mode of argument that we use (in this case, analogy to ancient Israel). He is applying two standards, based on what he agrees and disagrees with. That won’t do, and so I have called him on it. For my part, I think the better analogy of popes is to the prophets, as I argued in one of the papers above.

Because the Jews were hemmed in on every side by idolaters, God fixed the seat of his worship in the central region of the earth, that they might not be distracted by a variety of religions; there he appointed one priest to whom they might all look up, that they might be the better kept in unity. But now when the true religion has been diffused over the whole globe, who sees not that it is altogether absurd to give the government of East and West to one individual? It is just as if one were to contend that the whole world ought to be governed by one prefect, because one district has not several prefects.

The Church is in no less need of unity because it is more universal. That is fallacious logic. If anything, the need for unity by virtue of a central figure, would be even more necessary, the large an entity becomes. But there are still bishops, who have a local jurisdiction. It’s not “either/or.” Calvin has neither bishops nor a pope, so I fail to see how that is a superior state of affairs.

Hence, the absurd sectarianism and denominationalism that has flourished ever since in Protestantism. Orthodoxy has not fragmented to nearly that extent in its rejection of the papacy (only about 17 major divisions), because it retains Holy Tradition, the sacraments, and bishops. But when Protestantism mostly rejected all these things, the way was opened for rampant chaos and doctrinal relativism. And indeed that has come to pass.

But there is still another reason why that institution ought not to be drawn into a precedent. Every one knows that the high priest was a type of Christ; now, the priesthood being transferred, that right must also be transferred. To whom, then, was it transferred? certainly not to the Pope, as he dares impudently to boast when he arrogates this title to himself, but to Christ, who, as he alone holds the office without vicar or successor, does not resign the honour to any other. For this priesthood consists not in doctrine only, but in the propitiation which Christ made by his death, and the intercession which he now makes with the Father (Heb. 7:11).

But this misses the whole point. God is always the Head and reigns supreme. That was true under the Old Covenant and it is in the New Covenant. That never changes. So why have human figureheads in the Old and then suddenly we have no need of same in the New??? God was the King then, and had high priests and patriarchs and prophets, and he made covenants with folks like Noah and David, and gave the Law to men like Moses.

He is the king now and has bishops and popes. Why should there be any radical change? Men are involved in both covenants. It doesn’t go from “concrete leadership” to, all of a sudden, “no leadership of men because this clashes with God.”

The common sense law of analogy mitigates against that. And this is why we see all sorts of indications of human leadership in the New Testament. Why would Jesus, for example, bother to say that He was building His Church upon Peter (of all people to choose: a vacillating, impulsive weak reed!)?

If Jesus alone were the head of the Church, in the sense that no created human being is also a head, in human, jurisdictional, administrative (etc.) terms, then it seems clear to me that He would not have said that. He would have simply said that He was building His Church, and would have left Peter or any other man out of it. Would that not follow if Calvin were correct? Rejection of Petrine primacy and leadership makes no sense at all, from a biblical perspective.

3. Arguments for primacy from the New Testament. Two answers.
*

That example, therefore, which is seen to have been temporary, they have no right to bind upon us as by a perpetual law.

But, as I have said, the high priest was but one sort of leader or authority figure in the Old Covenant, so this is a red herring.

In the New Testament there is nothing which they can produce in confirmation of their opinion,

There are all sorts of things, detailed in my papers above, that Calvin seems to have overlooked. Plenty of Protestants can see that the arguments are at least legitimate and respectable, though they may personally disagree in the end with the papacy as an ongoing office.

but its having been said to one, “Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church” (Mt. 16:18).

This is simply untrue. Calvin greatly underestimates the power of the Catholic argument. He consistently does this; it is nothing new. As for what this saying meant, in context, incorporating the literary and historical background, see my relevant paper above.
 
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Illuminator

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continued from post #50:

Again, “Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me?” “Feed my lambs” (John 21:15). But to give strength to these proofs, they must, in the first place, show, that to him who is ordered to feed the flock of Christ power is given over all churches, and that to bind and loose is nothing else than to preside over the whole world.

It is not necessary for all the aspects of an office to be proven in any one prooftext. The Catholic argument (like the biblical argument for the Trinity and many other positions) is a cumulative one: deduced from many different proofs of different sorts. Having, for example, the “keys of the kingdom” (which is only said of Peter and no one else) means, once the background is understood, that the one possessing these keys is a sort of superintendent or supervisor of the Church. And the Church is in turn, universal.

That is but one proof of several. Peter’s epistles have a universal character to them: sort of like papal encyclicals. Peter is clearly regarded as the leader of the early Church, as seen in the book of Acts. He is the Rock that the Church was built upon. He appears to preside over the proceedings at the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15. Even Paul consults with him and is confirmed in his apostolic ministry, at the beginning of it. The clues for his primacy are all over the place in Scripture. It’s as if Calvin can’t see the sun (the papacy) at high noon on a clear summer day, when he looks all around the “sky” of Scripture.

But as Peter had received a command from the Lord, so he exhorts all other presbyters to feed the Church (1 Pet. 5:2).

Of course. The pope exhorts bishops. It doesn’t follow that there is no pope. The very fact that he is exhorting all the others suggests preeminence, as I have just argued above. This is how his epistles read. They have a general character because they are directly intended for the whole Church, not just one local congregation, or one person, as in St. Paul’s letters.

Hence we are entitled to infer, that, by that expression of Christ, nothing more was given to Peter than to the others, or that the right which Peter had received he communicated equally to others.

That can’t be sustained from the data, because there is too much prominence given to Peter. He alone has the keys. He alone was the “Rock” upon which Jesus built His Church. The others were given the power to bind and loose, because that is a power that all priests possess (to absolve sins and impose temporal penalties for sin). But even there, Calvin neglects to see that Peter was given the power individually by name, whereas the others receive it collectively. This also shows preeminence, not equality, precisely because he was singled out. The biblical data (taken all together) does not allow an interpretation of Peter being not a whit different from all the other apostles.

But not to argue to no purpose, we elsewhere have, from the lips of Christ himself, a clear exposition of what it is to bind and loose. It is just to retain and remit sins (John 10:23). The mode of loosing and binding is explained throughout Scripture: but especially in that passage in which Paul declares that the ministers of the Gospel are commissioned to reconcile men to God, and at the same time to exercise discipline over those who reject the benefit (2 Corinthians 5:18; 2 Corinthians 10:16).

That’s right. But this is no disproof of Peter’s primacy, as just explained. Calvin is operating on fallacious logic once again.

4. Another answer. The keys given to the other apostles as well as to Peter. Other two arguments answered by passages of Cyprian and Augustine.

How unbecomingly they wrest the passages of binding and loosing I have elsewhere glanced at, and will in a short time more fully explain. It may now be worth while merely to see what they can extract from our Saviour’s celebrated answer to Peter. He promised him the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and said, that whatever things he bound on earth should be bound in heaven (Mt. 16:19). The moment we are agreed as to the meaning of the keys, and the mode of binding, all dispute will cease.

But the power of the keys goes far beyond binding and loosing. This is the flaw in Calvin’s reasoning (see my paper above, for much elaboration). All the apostles (and priests thereafter) could bind and loose, but they didn’t all possess the keys.

4. Another answer. The keys given to the other apostles as well as to Peter. Other two arguments answered by passages of Cyprian and Augustine.
*

How unbecomingly they wrest the passages of binding and loosing I have elsewhere glanced at, and will in a short time more fully explain. It may now be worth while merely to see what they can extract from our Saviour’s celebrated answer to Peter. He promised him the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and said, that whatever things he bound on earth should be bound in heaven (Mt. 16:19). The moment we are agreed as to the meaning of the keys, and the mode of binding, all dispute will cease.

But the power of the keys goes far beyond binding and loosing. This is the flaw in Calvin’s reasoning (see my paper above, for much elaboration). All the apostles (and priests thereafter) could bind and loose, but they didn’t all possess the keys.
 

Illuminator

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continued from post #51

For the Pope will willingly omit that office assigned to the apostles, which, full of labour and toil, would interfere with his luxuries without giving any gain. Since heaven is opened to us by the doctrine of the Gospel, it is by an elegant metaphor distinguished by the name of keys.

That is not at all how Protestant exegetes today interpret the keys. I cited virtually all Protestants in my paper on the topic. Here are a few examples:

In the . . . exercise of the power of the keys, in ecclesiastical discipline, the thought is of administrative authority (Is 22:22) with regard to the requirements of the household of faith. The use of censures, excommunication, and absolution is committed to the Church in every age, to be used under the guidance of the Spirit . . .

So Peter, in T. W. Manson’s words, is to be ‘God’s vicegerent . . . The authority of Peter is an authority to declare what is right and wrong for the Christian community. His decisions will be confirmed by God’ (The Sayings of Jesus, 1954, p. 205).​
(New Bible Dictionary, edited by J. D. Douglas, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans Pub. Co., 1962, 1018)

Not only is Peter to have a leading role, but this role involves a daunting degree of authority (though not an authority which he alone carries, as may be seen from the repetition of the latter part of the verse in 18:18 with reference to the disciple group as a whole). The image of ‘keys’ (plural) perhaps suggests not so much the porter, who controls admission to the house, as the steward, who regulates its administration (cf. Is 22:22, in conjunction with 22:15). The issue then is not that of admission to the church . . . , but an authority derived from a ‘delegation’ of God’s sovereignty.​
(R. T. France; in Leon Morris, general editor, Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, Leicester, England: Inter-Varsity Press / Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans Pub. Co., 1985, vol. 1: Matthew, 256)

And what about the “keys of the kingdom”? . . . About 700 B.C. an oracle from God announced that this authority in the royal palace in Jerusalem was to be conferred on a man called Eliakim . . . (Isa. 22:22). So in the new community which Jesus was about to build, Peter would be, so to speak, chief steward.​
(F. F. Bruce, The Hard Sayings of Jesus, Downers Grove, Illinois: Intervarsity Press, 1983, 143-144)

Again, the only mode in which men are bound and loosed is, in the latter case, when they are reconciled to God by faith, and in the former, more strictly bound by unbelief.

But of course this is a completely novel take on what “binding and loosing” mean. It has an Old Testament background having to do with human intermediaries for the forgiveness and blessing of God. It can’t simply be redefined by Calvin at his late date, to mean something entirely different. That is eisegesis at its worst. It’s not how one approaches the Bible: molding it into whatever one’s specific desire or polemical purpose might be. It is what it is.

Were this all that the Pope arrogated to himself, I believe there would be none to envy him or stir the question. But because this laborious and very far from lucrative succession is by no means pleasing to the Pope, the dispute immediately arises as to what it was that Christ promised to Peter. From the very nature of the case, I infer that nothing more is denoted than the dignity which cannot be separated from the burden of the apostolic office. For, admitting the definition which I have given (and it cannot without effrontery be rejected), nothing is here given to Peter that was not common to him with his colleagues.

Again, this is patently untrue, as I have been showing, and demonstrate at great length and in many ways in my cited papers on the question. I can’t go through all that evidence here; interested readers have to do that reading, to get the background and the current exegetical consensus.

On any other view, not only would injustice be done to their persons, but the very majesty of the doctrine would be impaired. They object; but what, pray, is gained by striking against this stone? The utmost they can make out is, that as the preaching of the same gospel was enjoined on all the apostles, so the power of binding and loosing was bestowed upon them in common. Christ (they say) constituted Peter prince of the whole Church when he promised to give him the keys. But what he then promised to one he elsewhere delivers, and as it were hands over, to all the rest.

No; the “keys” and all that that represented, understanding the OT background of Isaiah 22 and common usage at that time, was given to him alone. Since it had to do with superintendence, obviously, Peter was regarded as the leader, above and beyond the others. They shared many things with him, but not all. That’s why Jesus singled Peter out by name, many times. He was to strengthen his brothers; Jesus prayed for him in particular to do that, etc.

If the same right, which was promised to one, is bestowed upon all, in what respect is that one superior to his colleagues?

I deny the premise here. Calvin is wrong.
 

Saint of God

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Then YOU believe Jesus to be a fool because HE is the one who pointed it out about Peter:

Matt. 15:17
And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
no sir, I believe you are a fool. You keep forgetting the main question...Whom do men say that I am... lets put it this way... Whom do you say Jesus is? If your answer is the same as Peter's Then I would say Blessed are you, Bread of life! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but our Father who is in heaven. and upon this rock he will build his church...
For this very reason is the scripture written...
John 20:31
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

PRECISELY why Peter was called “Protos” (Matt. 10:2) - the FIRST Apostle – even though he was NOT the first chosen.
Jesus showed that first and last is of no importance in the church...I posted his words. You are harping on your assumptions

WRONG again.
You keep saying wrong, but you are not posting any scripture to show that I am wrong.

You keep getting confused because you actually believe that Jesus used the words "Rock" and Peter" in verse 16 – as if they were two different words..

Jesus said in ARAMAIC - "You are Kepha and on this Kepha I will build my Church ..."
You are assuming that. But according to your assumption, that would make Peter the head of the church. is Peter the head of the church? Or is Jesus the head of the church?
Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

It’s only of “no importance” because YOU can’t explain it away.
WHY did Paul refer to him as “Cephas” – and not “Petros” in the Greek??

This destroys your entire argument . . .
It is of no importance because it is of no importance... I am arguing context while you are arguing translation of words. Your translation argument changes the context of "whom do men say that I am?" Who do you say Jesus is? The head cornerstone, or is Peter the head cornerstone?
1 Peter 2:7
Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

And this is your entire argument in a nutshell –
Blind hatred
for the Catholic Church – and nothing more.

You certainly didn’t expend any intellect or Scriptural knowledge in your pathetic argument . . .
Hatred for lies and deception, nothing is wrong with that. Of course, I did... It is apparent that you did not know that Jesus is the head of the Church. You believe Peter is or was and your pope is the head now.
 

Saint of God

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Thank you for thar extremely limited understanding of Scripture.

There are MULTIPLE types and fulfillments in Scripture that all POINT to Christ – but do not involve Him directly.

David and Elizabeth
OT - "Who am I that the Ark of my Lord should come to me?" (2 Sam. 6:9)
NT - "Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43)

David and John the Baptist

OT - The When the Ark carrying the Word of God returned “David was leaping and dancing before the Lord” (2 Sam. 6:14)
NT - When Mary came into Elizabeth's presence carrying the Word of God, the baby “leaped for joy” in Elizabeth's womb (Luke 2:38)

Eve and Mary
Gen 3:15

And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”

Do your homework.
I am not taking the bait to follow your rabbit trails...
They point to Jesus, not Peter... You likened Peter to receiving the keys to the kingdom of David, which would include the throne. So does Peter sin on the throne of David?
 

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BreadOfLife said:
This is absolute nonsense.
Kepha ONLY means "Rock", there is NO Aramaic word for "little roCk".
BreadOfLife is equating Peter with Jesus...
 

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no sir, I believe you are a fool. You keep forgetting the main question...Whom do men say that I am... lets put it this way... Whom do you say Jesus is? If your answer is the same as Peter's Then I would say Blessed are you, Bread of life! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but our Father who is in heaven. and upon this rock he will build his church...
For this very reason is the scripture written...

John 20:31
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Jesus showed that first and last is of no importance in the church...I posted his words. You are harping on your assumptions

You keep saying wrong, but you are not posting any scripture to show that I am wrong.

You are assuming that. But according to your assumption, that would make Peter the head of the church. is Peter the head of the church? Or is Jesus the head of the church?

Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

It is of no importance because it is of no importance... I am arguing context while you are arguing translation of words. Your translation argument changes the context of "whom do men say that I am?" Who do you say Jesus is? The head cornerstone, or is Peter the head cornerstone?

1 Peter 2:7
Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

Hatred for lies and deception, nothing is wrong with that. Of course, I did... It is apparent that you did not know that Jesus is the head of the Church. You believe Peter is or was and your pope is the head now.
WRONG again.

I was taught by Christ’s Church (Matt. 28:19-20) who Jesus is - and by the Scriptures.

Peter didn’t have this luxury. HIS revelation came directly from Godnot through the Magesterium of His Church. There was nothing in the OT that told Peter that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah.

And it’s YOU who keeps changing the context of Matt. 16 to arrive at your conclusions. It’s NOT only about WHO Jesus is. Jesus Himself makes this distinction with His threefold blessing of Peter (v. 17-19)AND with the news that He is building His Church, which will NEVER succumb to darkness (v. 18).

If you want to talk about CONTEXT – then consider where this took place. It was at Caesarea-Philppi, near massive ROCK (Kepha) formation.
Thew mere fact that a Protestant like you completely blew off the Protestant scholarship on the matter shows mw how afraid you are of the truth.
 

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I am not taking the bait to follow your rabbit trails...
They point to Jesus, not Peter... You likened Peter to receiving the keys to the kingdom of David, which would include the throne. So does Peter sin on the throne of David?
BreadOfLife said:
This is absolute nonsense.
Kepha ONLY means "Rock", there is NO Aramaic word for "little roCk".
BreadOfLife is equating Peter with Jesus...
More nonsense. You’re not “taking the bait” because it destroys your argument.
I explicitly states that the OT Types that I presented point to Jesus – so I don’t know what you’re ranting about.

And Peter no more sits on the throne of David that Joseph sat on the throne of Pharoah. Apparently, you don’t understand the Biblical concept of a vicar.

Joseph was given the Pharoah’s Authority – but that DIDN’T make him the Pharoah. Peter and his successors are the Christ‘s EARTHLY representatives. They don’t replace Him.
 
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WRONG again.

I was taught by Christ’s Church (Matt. 28:19-20) who Jesus is - and by the Scriptures.
taught what? That Jesus is the son of God? So why do you teach Jesus is God?
Matthew 16:16
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Peter didn’t have this luxury. HIS revelation came directly from Godnot through the Magesterium of His Church. There was nothing in the OT that told Peter that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah.
What luxury? And what church? Of course, there are things in the OT that teaches Jesus is the messiah. That is why they knew they had found the messiah...
40 One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.
41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.
And it’s YOU who keeps changing the context of Matt. 16 to arrive at your conclusions. It’s NOT only about WHO Jesus is. Jesus Himself makes this distinction with His threefold blessing of Peter (v. 17-19)AND with the news that He is building His Church, which will NEVER succumb to darkness (v. 18).
where did I change the context? The context of the passage begins with Jesus asking whom do men say that I am... So it is not about who peter is but about who Peter believes Jesus is...

If you want to talk about CONTEXT – then consider where this took place. It was at Caesarea-Philppi, near massive ROCK (Kepha) formation.
That has nothing to do with the discussion, so how could it be context?
Thew mere fact that a Protestant like you completely blew off the Protestant scholarship on the matter shows mw how afraid you are of the truth.
I am not a protestant... Did I say I was a protestant...? Protestants are the offspring of Catholics the mother of harlots.You are all strangers to the truth.
 

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More nonsense. You’re not “taking the bait” because it destroys your argument.
You don't have an argument. You equated Peter to Jesus. You also think that Peter has the keys to the kingdom of David which includes the throne...]
I explicitly states that the OT Types that I presented point to Jesus – so I don’t know what you’re ranting about.
You are a shameless liar...these are your words in post #36..Eliakim being given the Keys to the house of David is an OT TYPE of Peter, who was given the Keys to the Kningdom of Heaven.




And Peter no more sits on the throne of David that Joseph sat on the throne of Pharoah. Apparently, you don’t understand the Biblical concept of a vicar.
Now you are equating the kingdom of God with the kingdom of Pharaoh. Jesus actually sits on the throne of David. You are assuming that Jesus is somehow shorthanded; that he must enlist the help of Peter to build his Church.


Joseph was given the Pharoah’s Authority – but that DIDN’T make him the Pharaoh.
No it didn't, so how does that help your argument? Pharaoh is not Jesus is he? Pharaoh is not the son of God. Jesus gives us the ability to do this...
Hebrews 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
We don't need Peter or a Pope.
Peter and his successors are the Christ‘s EARTHLY representatives. They don’t replace Him.
That is not scriptural, it is foolishness. The believers are the earthly representatives of Jesus....
2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

We don't need a pope sir...