Rapture.. Are You Ready??

[Wormwood]

“In that day this song will be sung in the land of Judah: “We have a strong city; he sets up salvation as walls and bulwarks. Open the gates, that the righteous nation that keeps faith may enter in. You keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on you, because he trusts in you. Trust in the Lord forever, for the Lord God is an everlasting rock. For he has humbled the inhabitants of the height, the lofty city. He lays it low, lays it low to the ground, casts it to the dust. The foot tramples it, the feet of the poor, the steps of the needy.” The path of the righteous is level; you make level the way of the righteous. In the path of your judgments, O Lord, we wait for you; your name and remembrance are the desire of our soul. My soul yearns for you in the night; my spirit within me earnestly seeks you. For when your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness. If favor is shown to the wicked, he does not learn righteousness; in the land of uprightness he deals corruptly and does not see the majesty of the Lord. O Lord, your hand is lifted up, but they do not see it. Let them see your zeal for your people, and be ashamed. Let the fire for your adversaries consume them. O Lord, you will ordain peace for us, for you have indeed done for us all our works. O Lord our God, other lords besides you have ruled over us, but your name alone we bring to remembrance. They are dead, they will not live; they are shades, they will not arise; to that end you have visited them with destruction and wiped out all remembrance of them. But you have increased the nation, O Lord, you have increased the nation; you are glorified; you have enlarged all the borders of the land. O Lord, in distress they sought you; they poured out a whispered prayer when your discipline was upon them. Like a pregnant woman who writhes and cries out in her pangs when she is near to giving birth, so were we because of you, O Lord; we were pregnant, we writhed, but we have given birth to wind. We have accomplished no deliverance in the earth, and the inhabitants of the world have not fallen. Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead. Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until the fury has passed by. For behold, the Lord is coming out from his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity, and the earth will disclose the blood shed on it, and will no more cover its slain.” (Isaiah 26:1–21, ESV)

I think if you look at the whole chapter, it gives the context for the dead rising. In any event, I am not saying these things cannot point to the future and the resurrection. Clearly there are promises in Isaiah and other prophets about the Messiah, deliverance, judgments, etc. Even past judgments and deliverances are types and shadows of what is to come. I just think we need to be more cautious about grabbing verses from the prophets and immediately assigning them to the end times.

The point here is that God will destroy the wicked forever, but those that the Lord loves will live. The wrath of God will pass by those who trust him (likely a reference to Passover, and, consequently to the saved in Christ) but those who do not trust in him will find no shelter. Again, this is NOT teaching a secret rapture. If anything, its teaching the opposite. The righteous hide in their homes while God sweeps away the wicked. The righteous remain on the earth while the wicked are consumed outside with no shelter.

Why? Because we will already know. Paul goes on to write, But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.” God's elect will not be in darkness when rapture is here. They will be fully aware, not to mention there will be signs in the sun, moon, stars and earthquake.....

You said that verse taught that we can know the day and hour, but not the year. Are you retracting that statement? Jesus said, "But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only."

The reason the day does not surprise believers is because they are alert and awake every day...not because they know the day and hour, ATP. That is the point. Live every day like its THE day and it wont surprise you. He is definitely not teaching, "You know the feast days...therefore be ready on those days..."

 

[ATP]

I think if you look at the whole chapter, it gives the context for the dead rising. In any event, I am not saying these things cannot point to the future and the resurrection. Clearly there are promises in Isaiah and other prophets about the Messiah, deliverance, judgments, etc. Even past judgments and deliverances are types and shadows of what is to come. I just think we need to be more cautious about grabbing verses from the prophets and immediately assigning them to the end times.

The point here is that God will destroy the wicked forever, but those that the Lord loves will live. The wrath of God will pass by those who trust him (likely a reference to Passover, and, consequently to the saved in Christ) but those who do not trust in him will find no shelter. Again, this is NOT teaching a secret rapture. If anything, its teaching the opposite. The righteous hide in their homes while God sweeps away the wicked. The righteous remain on the earth while the wicked are consumed outside with no shelter.

Brother, when do dead bodies ever rise before the first resurrection? Never. Also notice it mentions the word "dust" in Isa 26:19 NIV and Dan 12:2 NIV.

Isa 26:19 NIV But your dead will live, Lord; their bodies will rise—let those who dwell in the dust wake up and shout for joy—your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.

You said that verse taught that we can know the day and hour, but not the year. Are you retracting that statement? Jesus said, "But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only."

The reason the day does not surprise believers is because they are alert and awake every day...not because they know the day and hour, ATP. That is the point. Live every day like its THE day and it wont surprise you. He is definitely not teaching, "You know the feast days...therefore be ready on those days..."

Incorrect. We can know the day and especially the hour. The rapture will happen on the Feast of Trumpets. Not only that, there will be signs in the sun, moon, stars and earthquake. Do you know what the Feast of Trumpets represents?

 

[Wormwood]

ATP, the first resurrection occurs at conversion (Col. 3:1). We are "made alive" at our baptism (Col. 2:11-13). Those who have been "raised with Christ" and are martyred are reigning with Christ currently. John calls this the "first resurrection" in Rev. 20. This is the ONLY place in the NT that refers to the "first resurrection" and we only have two descriptions of what this means: 1) It applies to those who have been martyred for Christ (thus they are slain saints) and 2) the second death has no power over them.

Should we conclude that the second death has power over everyone who is not beheaded for Christ? Do only the beheaded "reign with Christ" for 1,000 years? What about the crucified, stoned, or shot? Beheading was the primary means of capital punishment that came from the Roman Empire. The point here is that those who remain faithful to Christ even to death now live with him (John 11:26). Those who do not escape Roman judgment will escape God's judgment (the Second Death). That is the point. I know you wont agree with me, but I think using a symbolic apocalyptic genre to develop a chronology for the resurrection that overrides clear didactic teaching from Jesus and Paul about the resurrection is ill-advised.

Incorrect. We can know the day and especially the hour. The rapture will happen on the Feast of Trumpets. Not only that, there will be signs in the sun, moon, stars and earthquake. Do you know what the Feast of Trumpets represents?

Well, Jesus said quite plainly, "No one knows the day or hour..." I think I will believe Jesus on this one. I find it amazing that you will explain away a very clear teaching statement from Jesus, but when it comes to symbolic apocalyptic images, you demand a strict, literal interpretation or accuse people of not believing the Bible. I don't understand your hermeneutics.

 

[ATP]

ATP, the first resurrection occurs at conversion (Col. 3:1). We are "made alive" at our baptism (Col. 2:11-13). Those who have been "raised with Christ" and are martyred are reigning with Christ currently. John calls this the "first resurrection" in Rev. 20. This is the ONLY place in the NT that refers to the "first resurrection" and we only have two descriptions of what this means: 1) It applies to those who have been martyred for Christ (thus they are slain saints) and 2) the second death has no power over them.

Wormwood, you are way off. First off, Rev 20:6 NIV says "The second death has no power over them". If this is true and this means conversion only then why do you still believe OSAS is false?? Rev 20 first resurrection and thousand year reign with Christ is a future event. Your end times study needs a lot of work brother. All these scriptures refer to first resurrection future event..........

Isa 26:19 NIV But your dead will live, Lord; their bodies will rise—let those who dwell in the dust wake up and shout for joy—your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.

Dan 12:11-13 NIV “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days. 13“As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

1 Thess 4:16 NIV For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

1 Thess 5:10 NIV He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

Rev 20:4-6 NIV I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Well, Jesus said quite plainly, "No one knows the day or hour..." I think I will believe Jesus on this one. I find it amazing that you will explain away a very clear teaching statement from Jesus, but when it comes to symbolic apocalyptic images, you demand a strict, literal interpretation or accuse people of not believing the Bible. I don't understand your hermeneutics.

It's called an idiom Wormwood. Do you know what an idiom is.

 

[Wormwood]

Wormwood, you are way off. First off, Rev 20:6 NIV says "The second death has no power over them". If this is true and this means conversion only then why do you still believe OSAS is false?? Rev 20 first resurrection and thousand year reign with Christ is a future event. Your end times study needs a lot of work brother. All these scriptures refer to first resurrection future event..........

It's referring specifically to those believers who have been beheaded for Jesus. I don't think they can fall away after they have been killed.

So what is the point of all those passages you listed? Yes, they all point to a resurrection. The dead will be raised. We agree that will happen. Can you show me (other than Rev. 20) where the Bible teaches there will be two separate resurrections separated by many years? I think I will go with the plain didactic teachings of the Epistles and Gospels rather than using apocalyptic literature to create a chronology of the end times.

It's called an idiom Wormwood. Do you know what an idiom is.

Yes, an idiom is a figure of speech such as, "A penny for your thoughts" or "You are barking up the wrong tree."

So, let me follow your logic. The phrase, "concerning the day or hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father" that this was a common figure of speech Jesus' day. Moreover, not only is it just a very strange figure of speech, but its a figure of speech that actually means, "we do know the day and hour."

As Charles Barkley would say, "That's just turrible, turrible, turrible."

 

[ATP]

It's referring specifically to those believers who have been beheaded for Jesus. I don't think they can fall away after they have been killed.

Incorrect. The second death is referring to the Lake of Fire. Now I'm concerned.

Rev 20:6 NIV Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Rev 20:14 NIV Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Yes, an idiom is a figure of speech such as, "A penny for your thoughts" or "You are barking up the wrong tree."

So, let me follow your logic. The phrase, "concerning the day or hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father" that this was a common figure of speech Jesus' day. Moreover, not only is it just a very strange figure of speech, but its a figure of speech that actually means, "we do know the day and hour."

As Charles Barkley would say, "That's just turrible, turrible, turrible."

Yes! It is a figure of speech. Paul specifically stated we will know in 1 Thess 5:1-11 NIV. Rapture will land on the Feast of Trumpets, and there will be signs in the sun, moon, stars and earthquake. It's time to wake up brother!

 

[Wormwood]

Incorrect. The second death is referring to the Lake of Fire. Now I'm concerned.

Rev 20:6 NIV Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Rev 20:14 NIV Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

I don't know what you are disagreeing with. I never said the second death was not the lake of fire. I'm confused.

Yes! It is a figure of speech.

Ok, so Jesus is using a figure of speech that "no one knows the day or hour" which really means, "you should know the day and hour." Am I being punked?

 

[ATP]

I don't know what you are disagreeing with. I never said the second death was not the lake of fire. I'm confused.

Your confused because you think first resurrection means conversion in Rev 20, but Rev 20 is a future event.

Ok, so Jesus is using a figure of speech that "no one knows the day or hour" which really means, "you should know the day and hour." Am I being punked?

Punked? No. Why do you ignore every thing else I write. Feast of Trumpets, 1 Thess 5:1-11 NIV and signs in the sun, moon, stars and earthquake. God is not contradictory. It looks like we can know the year...

Luke 21:20 NIV "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.

Luke 21:28 NIV When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

Luke 21:31 NIV Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.

 

[Wormwood]

I'm not ignoring what you are writing, I just don't believe it. Jesus said we wouldn't know the day or hour. You are saying it was a figure of speech that really meant the opposite of what he really said. That is not how figures of speech work and there is nothing to indicate that it was a common idiom of the day. I enjoy talking with you, ATP, but these conversations do not go anywhere because you are unwilling to look at context and are content to just copy and paste verses while assigning your own meaning to them.

 

[ATP]

I'm not ignoring what you are writing, I just don't believe it. Jesus said we wouldn't know the day or hour. You are saying it was a figure of speech that really meant the opposite of what he really said. That is not how figures of speech work and there is nothing to indicate that it was a common idiom of the day. I enjoy talking with you, ATP, but these conversations do not go anywhere because you are unwilling to look at context and are content to just copy and paste verses while assigning your own meaning to them.

What Matt 24:36-44 NIV is doing is speaking to the heart of people, nonbelievers vs believers. It's comparing the world to the elect Wormwood. The world will be blind to the day of the Lord. It will be like in the days of Noah Matt 24:37-38 NIV. The Lord will come like a thief to THEM, not the elect 1 Thess 5:4 NIV. If Matt 24:36 NIV says we can't know the day and hour, but 1 Thess 5:4 NIV says we can then God would be a liar and contradictory. Do you understand now that Matt 24:36 is a figure of speech.

Nobody knows the day and hour. The word "Nobody" is a figure of speech that speaks to the heart of all people in a figurative metaphorical sense. How is this possible? Well, Matt 24:43 NIV separates nonbelievers and believers. The word "thief" is your answer. Not only that Paul specifically says, "WE DO NOT NEED TO WRITE YOU OF TIMES AND DATES" 1 Thess 5:1 NIV. Paul is saying we don't need to write to you because you will already know when the day of the Lord comes. Also, there will be signs in the sun, moon, stars and earthquake Joel 2:31 NIV, Matt 24:29-31 NIV, Mark 13:24-27 NIV, Luke 21:25-28 NIV, Acts 2:20 NIV, Rev 6:12-14 NIV.

Lastly, "times and dates" is referring to the Feast of Trumpets. When rapture ocurrs there will be a trumpet blast. This trumpet blast sound will come out of a shofar Joel 2:1-2 NIV, Matt 24:31 NIV, 1 Cor 15:51-52 NIV. Do you at least understand that Rev 20:1-6 NIV is a future event?

 

[Wormwood]

1 Thess. 5:4 does not say we can know the "day and hour." It says we aren't in darkness so that the day does not surprise us. This doesn't have anything to do with times and dates. It has to do with living a righteous life so that when he does return when he is not expected, you are not ashamed. We see the exact same concept in 2 Peter 3 and elsewhere:

“But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn!” (2 Peter 3:10–12, ESV)

“Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.” (Matthew 24:44, ESV)

The word "nobody" is not a "figure of speech." What you are trying to say is that Jesus is speaking in hyperbole (different from an idiom). However, there is nothing here to suggest that he is. The rest of Scripture confirms that no one knows the day or hour, but the righteous live godly lives so they aren't caught unaware.

 

[ATP]

1 Thess. 5:4 does not say we can know the "day and hour." It says we aren't in darkness so that the day does not surprise us.

I give up.

 

[ATP]

1 Thess. 5:4 does not say we can know the "day and hour." It says we aren't in darkness so that the day does not surprise us. This doesn't have anything to do with times and dates. It has to do with living a righteous life so that when he does return when he is not expected, you are not ashamed. We see the exact same concept in 2 Peter 3 and elsewhere:

“But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn!” (2 Peter 3:10–12, ESV)

“Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.” (Matthew 24:44, ESV)

The word "nobody" is not a "figure of speech." What you are trying to say is that Jesus is speaking in hyperbole (different from an idiom). However, there is nothing here to suggest that he is. The rest of Scripture confirms that no one knows the day or hour, but the righteous live godly lives so they aren't caught unaware.

So when we start seeing signs in the sun, moon, stars and earthquake we will still not know?? Come on now.

 

[Born_Again]

"Lastly, "times and dates" is referring to the Feast of Trumpets"

I'm not saying your wrong, but what brings you to this conclusion?

 

[ATP]

"Lastly, "times and dates" is referring to the Feast of Trumpets"

I'm not saying your wrong, but what brings you to this conclusion?

The four spring feasts, passover, the feast of unleavened bread, the feast of firstfruits and the feast of pentecost have already been fulfilled 2,000 years ago. The three fall feasts point towards end times, the feast of trumpets is rapture, the day of atonement is repentance for Israel 10 days later and the feast of tabernacles is when God will tabernacle with us and set up His 1,000 year reign 5 days after the atonement.

 

[aspen]

Ready in the same sense I was ready for Y2K; low, low expectations

The rapture is the Protestant version of Purgatory; complex doctrine developed around solitary verses. Both must involve pigs flying for me to be comfortable buying into either one.

 

[ATP]

Ready in the same sense I was ready for Y2K. Low, low expectations

The rapture is the Protestant version of Purgatory. Complex doctrine developed around single verses. Both must involve pigs flying for me to be comfortable endorsing them.

I personally do not believe rapture will happen on 9/13/15. There are wars that still need to be fulfilled like Ps 83, Isa 17 and Ez 38-39.

 

[Wormwood]

So when we start seeing signs in the sun, moon, stars and earthquake we will still not know?? Come on now.

I take it you are referring to:

““Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” (Matthew 24:29–31, ESV)

According to Jesus, the signs in the heavens occur after the "tribulation of those days" at his coming...not prior to a tribulation. Thus, there will be tribulation (and has been for 2,000 years (See Matt. 24:11-14 and all the things Jesus said would happen to the disciples he was speaking to...and continue to happen throughout much of the world today)) and when the Lord comes, the heavenly bodies will be shaken, the sky will flee from his presence at his appearing. So, no we will not know. Once the sky opens up, we will know...but predicting that is like predicting an earthquake. There will be no way to predict it. But this passage expressly states that this will happen after the tribulation at his coming. Again, no secret rapture is taught here an no mysterious disappearance of the Christians from the earth.

 

[ATP]

I take it you are referring to:


According to Jesus, the signs in the heavens occur after the "tribulation of those days" at his coming...not prior to a tribulation. Thus, there will be tribulation (and has been for 2,000 years (See Matt. 24:11-14 and all the things Jesus said would happen to the disciples he was speaking to...and continue to happen throughout much of the world today)) and when the Lord comes, the heavenly bodies will be shaken, the sky will flee from his presence at his appearing. So, no we will not know. Once the sky opens up, we will know...but predicting that is like predicting an earthquake. There will be no way to predict it. But this passage expressly states that this will happen after the tribulation at his coming. Again, no secret rapture is taught here an no mysterious disappearance of the Christians from the earth.

Wrong again, tribulation here is speaking of birth pains, not the 3.5 year great trib. The term "tribulation" and "great tribulation" are two different events.

 

[Wormwood]

That is an assumption that I am unwilling to make. There is nothing in the NT that indicates the authors had such rigid catergories. And again, I think you are ignoring the context. Look at the passage in its context:

““So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand. So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather. “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. .” (Matthew 24:15–30, ESV)

Jesus is speaking of "great tribulation" and then he says right after this..."Immediately after the tribulation of those days..." What tribulation? The tribulation he was just referring to...that he described as "great." This passage makes no sense if Jesus is speaking of two categories of tribulation and the "great tribulation" comes after the "tribulation." Clearly, the shaking of the heavens comes after the "tribulation" and this "tribulation" is described as "great" in verse 22. Your theology is chopping up this very fluid discourse and rearranging the parts so that it is barely recognizable.