Rapture.. Are You Ready??

[Joel Deguito]

Any one Christian knows exactly with verse from the bible.. my question is, which comes first the rapture or the seven years tribulation.. thanks

 

[ATP]

Any one Christian knows exactly with verse from the bible.. my question is, which comes first the rapture or the seven years tribulation.. thanks

I believe there is no seven year trib, scripture never mentions it. It does however mention a 3.5 year Great trib. So, the birth pains come first, then rapture, then the 3.5 year Great Trib.

 

[Butch5]

Any one Christian knows exactly with verse from the bible.. my question is, which comes first the rapture or the seven years tribulation.. thanks

The Tribulation comes first.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Mat 24:29-31 NKJ)

 

[ATP]

The Tribulation comes first.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Mat 24:29-31 NKJ)

Verse 29 is speaking about the tribulation of birth pains. The term "tribulation" is separate from"the great tribulation". Two different things.

 

[JimParker]

Any one Christian knows exactly with verse from the bible.. my question is, which comes first the rapture or the seven years tribulation.. thanks

That teaching, of the "rapture" and the great tribulation, is an innovation of the 19th century. It was never taught as an accepted interpretation before John Darby popularized it in 19th century England. And it subsequently became popular in the USA. But "popular" does not mean "factual." It it were an important teaching then the Church would have emphasized it from the beginning rather than saying nothing about it for 1800 years.

The important question is not "which comes first?".

THE important question for each of us is, "Will the Lord find me being faithful to His commands when he returns?".

Mat 24:45-46 Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his master when he comes will find so doing.

Luke 18:8 ... when the Son of man comes, will he find faith on earth?

When the Lord returns, He will judge us according to our faithfulness, not according to our knowledge of when this or that event occurs.

 

[ATP]

That teaching, of the "rapture" and the great tribulation, is an innovation of the 19th century. It was never taught as an accepted interpretation before John Darby popularized it in 19th century England. And it subsequently became popular in the USA. But "popular" does not mean "factual." It it were an important teaching then the Church would have emphasized it from the beginning rather than saying nothing about it for 1800 years.

Incorrect. The rapture is indeed biblical. The first resurrection in 1 Thess 4:16 NIV, 1 Thess 5:10 NIV, Rev 20:4-6 NIV will actually precede the rapture in Matt 24:40-41 NIV, 1 Thess 4:14-17 NIV, 1 Thess 5:10 NIV. Also, scripture clearly specifies a great tribulation, and it also specifies that it lasts 3.5 years.

Jer 30:7 ESV Alas! That day is so great there is none like it; it is a time of distress for Jacob; yet he shall be saved out of it.

Dan 12:1 NIV “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

Matt 24:21-22 NIV For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

Mark 13:19 NIV because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again.

Luke 21:23 NIV How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.

2 Thess 2:1-4 NIV Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Rev 3:10 NIV Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth

Rev 7:14 NIV I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The Great Tribulation will indeed last 3.5 Years...

Dan 7:25 NIV He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.

Dan 12:7 NIV The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, "It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed."

Rev 11:2-3 NIV But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."

Rev 12:6 NIV The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

Rev 12:14 NIV The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach.

Rev 13:5 NIV The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months.

But before the start of the Great Tribulation and BEFORE rapture, the Antichrist must reveal himself FIRST through the Abomination of Desolation...

Dan 11:31 NIV "His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.

Dan 12:11-12 NIV “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

Matt 24:15 NIV "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand--

2 Thess 2:4 NIV He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Rev 13:14-15 NIV Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.

Rev 20:4 NIV I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The 3.5 Year Great Tribulation will actually be considered or titled "God's Wrath" among those who are left and refuse salvation in Christ...

Isa 13:9 NIV See, the day of the LORD is coming --a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger-- to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it.

Isa 13:13 NIV Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the earth will shake from its place at the wrath of the Lord Almighty, in the day of his burning anger.

Nahum 1:2-6 ESV The Lord is a jealous and avenging God; the Lord is avenging and wrathful; the Lord takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies. The Lord is slow to anger and great in power, and the Lord will by no means clear the guilty. His way is in whirlwind and storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. He rebukes the sea and makes it dry; he dries up all the rivers; Bashan and Carmel wither; the bloom of Lebanon withers. The mountains quake before him; the hills melt; the earth heaves before him, the world and all who dwell in it. Who can stand before his indignation? Who can endure the heat of his anger? His wrath is poured out like fire, and the rocks are broken into pieces by him.

Luke 21:23 NIV How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.

Rom 1:18 ESV For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 ESV And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Rev 16:1 NIV Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out the seven bowls of God’s wrath on the earth.”

Rev 19:15 NIV Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

But don't worry my precious sheep. We are not appointed to suffer wrath. Christians need not fear the wrath of God. We have God's promise that we are His chosen. It is true that we should fear God, since He "bought us" and He has been known to put His servants through some pretty severe tests, but we have nothing to fear about God's wrath if we believe in and follow Christ. Wrath is not for the children of God. God may discipline, rebuke, or test us, but this is always constructive--for our good!

Dan 12:1 NIV “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

Matt 24:21-22 NIV For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

John 3:36 NIV "Whoever puts his faith in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see that life, for God's wrath remains on him."

1 Thess 5:9-10 NIV For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

Rev 3:10 NIV Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth

And when will the rapture occur? Right before God's Wrath is poured out, right before the 3.5 Year Great Tribulation. There will be signs in the sun, moon, stars, earthquakes..

Joel 2:31 NIV The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.

Matt 24:29-31 NIV / Mark 13:24-27 NIV “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Luke 21:25-28 NIV “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

Rev 6:12-14 NIV I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

To conclude this post, I will finalize it by saying "tribulation" refers to birth pains, and the "Great Tribulation" refers to God's Wrath..

Matt 24:4-8 NIV Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

Rev 12:2 NIV She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.

- Amen, ATP.

 

[brakelite]

I was reminded recently of a series of books and movies that were very popular several years ago called the “Left Behind” series. The premise of the books was a situation the authors claimed was about to unfold within the context of Biblical prophecy, in that Christians would disappear from the face of the earth leaving behind those who would have to go through a period of intense drama including the establishment of the mark of the beast, the persecution of anyone converting to Christianity after the ‘rapture’, the rule of the Antichrist, and the pouring out of the plagues upon mankind culminating in the end of the world as we know it.
Now for any casual reader of the Bible, the above scenario seems entirely plausible. The Bible certainly does mention an event when God’s people are changed, in the Apostle Paul’s words, ‘in the twinkling of an eye’., and are taken to heaven. The Bible also mentions a coming time when a global form of governance will enforce the much talked about and controversial ‘mark of the beast'; the head of this governing authority is indeed the dreaded Antichrist; and yes, we are all aware of the fearful plagues that the Apostle John warned about in the book of Revelation.
The entire ‘Left Behind’ series has become an icon within the walls of evangelical Christianity, and I fear that many who do not study their Bibles carefully enough have taken the authors’ word for all that is written, and presume that all is Biblically based and almost prophetic in itself, despite the authors’ own admission that it is a work of fiction. So how Biblical is it? Is there any basis for believing that countless thousands of people from all walks of life and from all nations, are suddenly going to disappear leaving loved ones, workmates, passengers in planes, buses and taxis, and society as a whole, ‘left behind’ ?
Let us look at those Biblical passages most commonly used in support of the rapture theory, and that form the basis for the ‘left behind’ phenomenom.
As we study these scriptures we must realise that all of them are in the context of prophecy regarding the second coming of Jesus Christ. It is the second advent that climaxes all the above crisis’ and is the focal point of all prophecy.
Matthew 24:37-41 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Now please note carefully what Jesus is saying here. First, the second coming will be affected in precisely the same way as the great flood. The unrighteous will not be aware of the signs of the times, they shall be living at ease, living life as normal with little or no thought of eternity, when they shall be taken all away.
Let us go to the parallel passage in the gospel of Luke. You will note that Luke adds a little more detail giving a slightly different perspective.
Luke 17:26-37 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot’s wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
The people that Matthew says are taken away, Luke adds that they are destroyed. Thus the ‘taken away’ aspect or context of what Jesus is telling His disciples equates to death or destruction. This is borne out later in Luke’s passage when the disciples ask Him, “where are they taken to?” Jesus answer concerning the gathering of eagles around the carcasse echoes the following:
Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
I am beginning to think that being left behind isn’t such a bad alternative. But we shall see. We will now look at another passage and see how consistent Jesus is regarding the subject.
Matthew 13:24-30 ¶ Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
A little later Jesus explains the parable to His disciples.
Matthew 13:37-42 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
So let us recap the main points:

• The second coming of Jesus Christ is in like manner as the great flood.
• The wicked, who in Noah’s day were living their normal everyday lives in ignorance and sin, were all taken away by the flood (Matthew 24:39) therefore so also will the wicked be at the second coming.
• They are taken away to their ultimate death, or destruction. (Luke 17:27,29)
• The concept of the wicked being taken is repeated many times. (Matt. 24:39-41; Luke 17:34-36)
• The taking away or removal of the wicked to be destroyed comes before the gathering of the righteous.

Now, let me ask a question. In Noah’s day, after the flood had removed the wicked from the face of the earth and destroyed them all, who was left behind?
Genesis 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
Who was it that was left behind when fire and brimstone fell from heaven and destroyed Sodom and the other cities of the plain? Was it not Lot and his two daughters?
The Left Behind series of books and movies are based on the premise that it would be a terrible thing to be left behind; that to be left behind was to be avoided at all costs. If we are to believe the words of Jesus however it would appear to me that to be left behind, alive and kicking, would be a far better alternative.

 

[rockytopva]

Rapture? Beam me up Jesus!

 

[pom2014]

I will be long dead before anything happens.

All of us will.

So why not focus on the good news not the end of days?

 

[JimParker]

Incorrect. The rapture is indeed biblical.

<<Incorrect. The rapture is indeed biblical.>>

That those still alive when the Lord comes will be caught up into the air is specifically stated at 1Th 4:16. That has been taught since the beginning of the Church.

The scheme which John Darby came up with in the 1830s is not taught by scripture and was never taught by the original church though it is very popular in evangelical circles.

Please note that most of the "proof texts" you use to support your view are interpretations of from highly symbolic, apocalyptic, visions. Because they are so highly symbolic, they are not a good source for precision in exegesis.

Jesus specifically told his disciples that He would come at a time when He was not expected and that our duty to Him as believers is to be faithfully doing what He commanded us to do.

The rapture and the tribulation are great source material for sensational preaching that draw big crowds and can be counted on to bolster the collection. But, whatever takes place, it will be God's will, according to His timing. Attempts to make predictions as to exactly what and when and where will not change anything in God's plan. All it will do is distract believers from their callings and into endless, meaningless, and useless bickering about who's right.

If you wish to waste your time with endless speculation and bickering then, at the judgment, be prepared to explain to Jesus why you wasted the "talents" He put in your charge by choosing to be distracted by things beyond your ability to know and neglecting those things He gave you to do.

No one will be judged on whether they got the sequence of "rapture-trib" correct.

Jesus told us specifically how He will judge mankind when He comes the second time. (Not Darby's 3rd time.)

Mat 25:31-46

When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.

Then the King will say to those at his right hand, "Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; or I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me."

Then the righteous will answer him, "Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?"

And the King will answer them, "Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me."

Then he will say to those at his left hand, "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me."

Then they also will answer, "Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?"

Then he will answer them, "Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.

And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."



1Co 8:1b-3 "Knowledge" puffs up, but love builds up." If any one imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. But if one loves God, one is known by him.

According to the clear teaching of scripture (not by some televangelist's interpretation of symbolic, apocalyptic visions), how does a believer show his love for God? How can a believer be "Rapture-ready"?

"Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me."

 

[ATP]

<<Incorrect. The rapture is indeed biblical.>>

That those still alive when the Lord comes will be caught up into the air is specifically stated at 1Th 4:16. That has been taught since the beginning of the Church.

No silly, Matt 24:40-41 and also 1 Thess 4:16 is a part of the 66 books in the Holy Bible. Notice 2 Tim 3 says ALL scripture..

2 Tim 3:16-17 NIV All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 

[JimParker]

No silly, Matt 24:40-41 and also 1 Thess 4:16 is a part of the 66 books in the Holy Bible. Notice 2 Tim 3 says ALL scripture..

2 Tim 3:16-17 NIV All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

whatever

 

[ATP]

whatever

yup

 

[justaname]

Any one Christian knows exactly with verse from the bible.. my question is, which comes first the rapture or the seven years tribulation.. thanks

The answer is no. No one knows exactly, otherwise there would be no debate on the issue.

 

[ezekiel]

Matthew 13

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers,

(Gather ye together first the tares),

and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Blessed are they that are able to stand at Christ comming.

9 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.

 

[ATP]

The answer is no. No one knows exactly, otherwise there would be no debate on the issue.

I believe we can know when the rapture will come. A good study of scripture proves Jesus comes like a thief to nonbelievers. The evidence is there. 1 Thess 5:4 NIV is clear on this matter. Matt 24:36 has unbeliever written all over it. If Matt 24:36 says we will not know the day, then why does 1 Thess 5:4 says we will know. The "Days of Noah" describe the flesh of the world, but scripture clearly states that we are no longer of this world. Matt 24:37-39 NIV. The day of the Lord will come like a thief to (nonbelievers).

Matt 24:36-39 NIV “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

1 Thess 5:1-4 NIV Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

- ATP

 

[Wormwood]

I think people need to define what they mean by "rapture." For some, rapture means the Second Coming of Christ that gathers the good and the wicked for judgment. For others, they mean a "secret rapture" of the church either prior to or after a particular end times scenario involving an Antichrist figure.

The church has always believed in a "rapture" in the sense that Christ will come and those who belong to him will be "caught up" together with him. However, the idea of the church being secretly wisped away so God can focus his attention on Israel in the final few years prior to Christ's third return is a relatively new idea that was unknown in the first 1800 years of church history.

 

[ATP]

However, the idea of the church being secretly wisped away so God can focus his attention on Israel in the final few years prior to Christ's third return is a relatively new idea that was unknown in the first 1800 years of church history.

It's not an idea WW, rather it's in the word of God. 1 Thess 4:14-17 NIV For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

 

[Wormwood]

I agree that 1 Thess. 4:14-17 is the word of God. However, this does not teach a secret rapture. Rather, it is quite audible (loud shout, voice of the archangel and trumpet call of God), and visible (Lord descending from heaven, dead being raised and believers being caught up in the air with the Lord).

In my estimation, there is nothing in these verses that suggest this is a secretive event, or that unbelievers are "left behind." Rather, "that day" will come like a thief in the night for the unbeliever and "sudden destruction will come upon them" (1 Thess 5:2). There is also nothing here that would suggest that "that day" is different from the event in 4:15...not to mention 3.5 or 7 years later.

ATP, I appreciate you and your views. Perhaps you are right. However, there is nothing in 1 Thess 4 that teaches anything close to Darby's dispensationalism. So to say that its the plain teaching of the word of God is a bit misguided. I highly doubt that 1800 years of studying 1 Thess 4 and no one came up with a 3rd return of Christ preceded by a second, secret return where only the church was removed without anyone in the world seeing Jesus...if it was so clearly spelled out as you assert.

 

[ATP]

I agree that 1 Thess. 4:14-17 is the word of God. However, this does not teach a secret rapture.

It has secret rapture written all over it brother, along with the first resurrection.

In my estimation, there is nothing in these verses that suggest this is a secretive event, or that unbelievers are "left behind.".

Oh really...Matt 24:40-41 NIV Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.