Rapture.. Are You Ready??

[Wormwood]

Foreigner,

You are wrong. There is a reason every scholar out there agrees that Darby invented dispensationalism and the "rapture" as it is depicted in books such as "The Late Great Planet Earth" and "Left Behind." Its because it is true. First, those quotes from those church fathers are being misunderstood and are out of context. Just because they spoke of the church being "caught up" or being "gathered" prior to tribulation does not mean they meant it in the sense that those phrases are understood today. They meant that the church brought to the Lord and spared the judgment of God and the wrath of the Lamb at his coming.

Second, the early church did not hold to dispensationalism. They did not believe Israel was the focus of God's end times plans and God would wisp the church off the earth in order to focus his attention on Israel. That is a fact. You cant take their quotes and insert dispensational concepts into them because they didn't believe that, nor did they teach that. I urge you to do some research from notable church history books on the early church and eschatology rather than using Google and finding random Joes trying to prop up their eschatology with cut and paste jobs of various quotations.

 

[ATP]

Just because they spoke of the church being "caught up" or being "gathered" prior to tribulation does not mean they meant it in the sense that those phrases are understood today. They meant that the church brought to the Lord and spared the judgment of God and the wrath of the Lamb at his coming.

The Lord comes down, and we go up in the clouds. It's plain as day. You either believe the Word or you don't.

1 Thess 4:14-17 NIV For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

They did not believe Israel was the focus of God's end times plans and God would wisp the church off the earth in order to focus his attention on Israel.

Sounds like unbelief to me.

 

[Wormwood]

The Lord comes down, and we go up in the clouds. It's plain as day. You either believe the Word or you don't.

No one is disputing that, ATP. What I am disputing, and what the early church never taught was that Jesus would come down, secretly take the church, and then leave with them so God could focus on Israel, rebuild the temple and have them start performing animal sacrifices again in the Temple so he could fulfill their OT promises that Christ had not accomplished. I find such teaching to be not only unbiblical, but very similar to the Judaizing that Paul condemned in his writings.

Sounds like unbelief to me.

Well it cant be unbelief....the Bible doesn't teach it and no one even dreamed it up until the 1800s. How can you be accused of not believing something that doesn't exist in the Scriptures and had yet to be invented?

 

[HammerStone]

One has to know the context of Matthew 24:40-41. The occupying Roman force of the time liked to make a point about their rule, so subversive and troublesome populations would be subjected to periodic slaughter of the population to remind the rowdy locals where the political power ultimately resided.

The whole key to the passage is Matthew 24:42-44 which continues the context of the one thought:

Therefore be alert, since you don’t know what day your Lord is coming. But know this: If the homeowner had known what time the thief was coming, he would have stayed alert and not let his house be broken into. This is why you also must be ready, because the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

The one staying and working is the one you want to be, not the one missing in the context of this passage. This is why earlier, in Matthew 24:28, the vultures gather where the carcass is located. The deceived will go off after secret raptures and Messianic promises that are false. Thus, we have the admonition in 2 Peter 3:3-4 where people will go after their own lusts, eg. eating and drinking and being merry as in the days of Noah. I'm not a Greek expert, but do your own research and see that the English word taken is associational. The one in the field working is the one the Lord will find satisfaction in. The one not present, who is taken with the world, is the one who finds wrath.

 

[Wormwood]

Good points Hammerstone. I think the "rapture" as it is depicted in the NT most closely associated with the destruction of a tsunami, such as the ones that hit Japan and Thailand. Those who are "taken away" are the ones carried away by the overwhelming waves. The day comes upon them "like a thief" and sudden destruction comes upon them and they have no way to save themselves. Those who are "ready" are not destroyed and remain to dwell with the Lord. The reason I believe we are "caught up" to meet the Lord in the air is because we are being separated from those who are condemned with the earth as it is "burnt up" and destroyed along with the ungodly (2 Peter 3:7). 1 Thess 5 indicates this destruction of the ungodly occurs on the same day that the righteous are "caught up" to be with the Lord. The idea that the redemption of the faithful and the destruction of the ungodly occur at two different parousias and are separated by multiple years is a new idea. I personally believe the exegesis behind the theory is very questionable, but I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time . But I just don't think I am.

 

[ATP]

No one is disputing that, ATP. What I am disputing, and what the early church never taught was that Jesus would come down, secretly take the church, and then leave with them so God could focus on Israel, rebuild the temple and have them start performing animal sacrifices again in the Temple so he could fulfill their OT promises that Christ had not accomplished. I find such teaching to be not only unbiblical, but very similar to the Judaizing that Paul condemned in his writings.


Well it cant be unbelief....the Bible doesn't teach it and no one even dreamed it up until the 1800s. How can you be accused of not believing something that doesn't exist in the Scriptures and had yet to be invented?

Well, you are disputing that, and you never replied to post 37.

 

[Wormwood]

Sorry ATP, I have been crazy busy. One of my coworkers left and the other is leaving. I am having to do their jobs as well as mine. I read your comment in #37. I am just not sure how to respond. My interpretation of Revelation is so strikingly different to yours that its hard to make a concise response to your claims and I've already shared my views on the context of Matt. 24. I agree that we will be changed in the twinkling of an eye.

 

[ATP]

No one is disputing that, ATP. What I am disputing, and what the early church never taught was that Jesus would come down, secretly take the church, and then leave with them so God could focus on Israel, rebuild the temple and have them start performing animal sacrifices again in the Temple so he could fulfill their OT promises that Christ had not accomplished. I find such teaching to be not only unbiblical, but very similar to the Judaizing that Paul condemned in his writings.


Well it cant be unbelief....the Bible doesn't teach it and no one even dreamed it up until the 1800s. How can you be accused of not believing something that doesn't exist in the Scriptures and had yet to be invented?

I am baffled as to what you believe. Your posts are very confusing. You believe in the rapture but you don't.

was that Jesus would come down, secretly take the church, and then leave with them so God could focus on Israel, rebuild the temple and have them start performing animal sacrifices again in the Temple so he could fulfill their OT promises that Christ had not accomplished. I find such teaching to be not only unbiblical

Unbiblical? You have got to be kidding. These events you mentioned are all in scripture. What Bible are you reading brother??

The one staying and working is the one you want to be, not the one missing in the context of this passage. This is why earlier, in Matthew 24:28, the vultures gather where the carcass is located. The deceived will go off after secret raptures and Messianic promises that are false. Thus, we have the admonition in 2 Peter 3:3-4 where people will go after their own lusts, eg. eating and drinking and being merry as in the days of Noah. I'm not a Greek expert, but do your own research and see that the English word taken is associational. The one in the field working is the one the Lord will find satisfaction in. The one not present, who is taken with the world, is the one who finds wrath.

You're way off. I don't even know where to start here. Matt 24:36-44 NIV mentions the thief and the coming of the Son of Man. This is end time language Hammer.

 

[Wormwood]

Yes, the birth of Jesus is also in Scripture. That doesn't mean it will take place during a 3.5 or 7 year tribulation. You are taking texts and mashing them into an end time scenario that either doesn't fit or isn't referencing the end times. That is the issue. Yes there is a rapture. But no, the Bible doesn't define the rapture as a secret event that takes believers and leaves unbelievers on the earth for 3.5 years. It just doesn't. It describes the rapture as the end of human history and a day when the righteous are transformed and the wicked are condemned. I don't know how I can clarify this further. I am going to have to throw in the towel on trying to explain the differences here.

 

[ATP]

Yes, the birth of Jesus is also in Scripture. That doesn't mean it will take place during a 3.5 or 7 year tribulation. You are taking texts and mashing them into an end time scenario that either doesn't fit or isn't referencing the end times. That is the issue.

What in the world does the birth of Jesus have to do with the 3.5 year great tribulation or end times in general?? A 3.5 year great tribulation is in scripture brother...

THE GREAT TRIBULATION
Jer 30:7 NIV How awful that day will be! No other will be like it. It will be a time of trouble for Jacob, but he will be saved out of it.

Dan 12:1 NIV “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

Zeph 1:15 NIV That day will be a day of wrath—a day of distress and anguish, a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness—

Matt 24:21-22 NIV For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

Mark 13:19 NIV because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again.

Luke 21:23 NIV How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.

Rev 3:10 NIV Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth

Rev 7:14 NIV I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

3.5 YEARS/1,260 DAYS/42 MONTHS/TIME, TIMES AND HALF A TIME
Dan 7:25 NIV He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.

Dan 12:7 NIV The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, "It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed."

Rev 11:2-3 NIV But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."

Rev 12:6 NIV The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

Rev 12:14 NIV The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach.

Rev 13:5 NIV The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months.

Yes there is a rapture. But no, the Bible doesn't define the rapture as a secret event that takes believers and leaves unbelievers on the earth for 3.5 years. It just doesn't. It describes the rapture as the end of human history and a day when the righteous are transformed and the wicked are condemned. I don't know how I can clarify this further. I am going to have to throw in the towel on trying to explain the differences here.

You seriously need to study more then, especially with end time events. The rapture will occur before the 3.5 year great tribulation of God's wrath, because believers are not appointed to wrath. The 3.5 year great tribulation is considered God's wrath of trumpets and bowls poured out on mankind. There will be people still on this earth during God's wrath of trumpets and bowls....

Rev 8:10-11 NIV The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water— 11the name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter. (Footnotes: 11 Wormwood is a bitter substance.)

Rev 8:13 NIV As I watched, I heard an eagle that was flying in midair call out in a loud voice: “Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels!”

Rev 9:3-6 NIV And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes. 6During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.

Rev 9:15 NIV And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind.

Rev 9:20-21 NIV The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. 21Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

Rev 16:2 NIV The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly, festering sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.

Rev 16:4-6 NIV The third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood. 5Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say: “You are just in these judgments, O Holy One, you who are and who were; 6for they have shed the blood of your holy people and your prophets, and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve.”

Rev 16:8-9 NIV The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was allowed to scorch people with fire. 9They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.

Rev 16:10-11 NIV The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in agony 11and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.

Rev 16:14 NIV They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

Rev 16:21 NIV From the sky huge hailstones, each weighing about a hundred pounds, fell on people. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.

Rev 17:2 NIV With her the kings of the earth committed adultery, and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries.”

Rev 17:18 NIV The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

Rev 18:2-4 NIV With a mighty voice he shouted: “ ‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!’ She has become a dwelling for demons and a haunt for every impure spirit, a haunt for every unclean bird, a haunt for every unclean and detestable animal. 3For all the nations have drunk the maddening wine of her adulteries. The kings of the earth committed adultery with her, and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries.” 4Then I heard another voice from heaven say: “ ‘Come out of her, my people,’ so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues;

- ATP

 

[Wormwood]

ATP,

Jeremiah is referring to the invasion of the Babylonians. Your references in Matthew, Mark and Luke are directly referring to 70AD (I don't discount the idea that these could be microcosms of a future period of suffering, but that is somewhat speculative). The tribulation of Revelation is happening now. In fact, John says he is a participate in the tribulation (Rev. 1:9). Trying to differentiate between "tribulation" and "great tribulation" as different events with timelines, charts and graphs is just silly in my estimation. The book of Revelation was written to 1st century churches that continues to have application to us today as we still are in a time of tribulation. 100,000 Christians are killed for the testimony of Jesus every year...that's almost 300 a day. We are in the tribulation, and if you think we are not, its because you live in one of the rare safe zones in the world where the threat of beatings or death do not confront you daily because of your faith in Jesus.

You seriously need to study more then, especially with end time events. The rapture will occur before the 3.5 year great tribulation of God's wrath, because believers are not appointed to wrath. The 3.5 year great tribulation is considered God's wrath of trumpets and bowls poured out on mankind. There will be people still on this earth during God's wrath of trumpets and bowls....

Believe me, I have studied in great detail on these issues. Just because we do not agree does not mean I am ignorant of your views or the teachings of the Scriptures. The problem you are having is that you are so stuck in your Dispensational theology that you cannot read Scriptures without automatically jamming them into your eschatology. Perhaps one day you will be able to see the Scriptures from other vantage points and humbly recognize that there are more ways than Darby's Dispensationalism to see the Bible. As I have mentioned before, the church didn't see any of those passages from a Dispensational perspective for 1800 years. The fact that you cannot see anything but Dispensationalism in these passages shows that if anyone needs more study, then it would likely be on your end. I can appreciate various eschatologies and understand how people from different views understand these passages. However, you can only see your view and seem completely oblivious to others...especially those that the church has held throughout most of her existence. Believe it or not, people knew how to read and understand the Bible prior to the 1800's. In fact, I would say most of them did a far better job of it than most people today.

 

[ATP]

Trying to differentiate between "tribulation" and "great tribulation" as different events with timelines, charts and graphs is just silly in my estimation.

Silly? No Wormwood. It is biblical and from the Word of God. "Tribulation" speaks of birth pains, this is what we're in now. The Great Tribulation speaks of God's wrath of trumpets and bowls in the FUTURE. Believers in Christ are not appointed to God's wrath. This is why rapture will occur before the 3.5 year great trib.....

BIRTH PAINS
Matt 24:4-8 NIV Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

1 Thess 5:3 NIV While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

Rev 12:2 NIV She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.

GOD'S WRATH
Rev 15:1 NIV I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed.

Rev 15:7 NIV Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever.

Rev 16:1 NIV Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out the seven bowls of God’s wrath on the earth.”

Rev 16:19 NIV The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath.

Rev 19:15 NIV Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

- ATP

 

[Wormwood]

Well, there is nothing left for me to say. If the dispensational charts and timelines are clearly from the Bible, then I guess I and the first 1800 years of Christians didnt know how to read the Bible plainly.

 

[ATP]

Well, there is nothing left for me to say. If the dispensational charts and timelines are clearly from the Bible, then I guess I and the first 1800 years of Christians didnt know how to read the Bible plainly.

I'm quoting the Bible directly. The Word of God is clear.

 

[justaname]

Well, there is nothing left for me to say. If the dispensational charts and timelines are clearly from the Bible, then I guess I and the first 1800 years of Christians didnt know how to read the Bible plainly.

This is a weak argument WW...do you believe in sacramental theology also? How about purgatory?

The thousand year reign as described by John is given six times within the context...emphasis is explicit. Why would you not take that literal?

Also at Jesus ascension the question by the apostles was concerning the Kingdom for Israel. When will you restore the Kingdom to Israel? Jesus did not rebuke them, nor correct them. In the minds of the apostles a literal Kingdom for the nation of Israel was always an issue. So for the "early church" it was always a concern.

My contention is after 70ad people viewed the idea is the Kingdom restored to Israel differently. Eventually the Church became predominantly gentile, and the idea was dropped. Some also think there was a split in the Church at 150 ad.

And the Matthew 24 account is not fulfilled, at best 70ad is only a partial fulfillment.

Finally to stack the seals, trumpets, and bowels is nonsense. All cardinal numbers...exegesis does not allow such an idea.

These ideas are not "silly" or originating in 1800, those are false arguments.

As for the one taken and one left idea, I agree with you. The one taken is taken in judgment.

So just so I know where do you stand eschatologically?

 

[ATP]

As for the one taken and one left idea, I agree with you. The one taken is taken in judgment.

I would disagree, those passages clearly speak of the "coming of the Son of Man" and the "thief". This is end time language here.

 

[Wormwood]

This is a weak argument WW...do you believe in sacramental theology also? How about purgatory?

In my defense, I think this argument is also weak. I do believe in aspects of sacramental theology (specifically baptism). Purgatory was not a doctrine held to by the early church.
There is a difference, in my opinion, in a view that perhaps wasn't a predominant view for large portions of church history and a view that was never even heard of for 1800 years. To say that someone doesn't believe the Bible, when their view of "belief" is adopting a view that the church had never even contemplated for almost her entire history is baffling to me.

Which numbers do you take literally in Revelation, justaname? What images do you take literally? Will Christians really suffer exactly 10 days in prison? Does Jesus have seven eyes and seven horns in heaven? Are there really seven Spirits of God? Are there literally four angels at the four corners of the earth? Did John count the angels to determine there were 10,000 x 10,000 and 1,000 x 1,000? Will there be exactly 7,000 people killed in an earthquake?

What about the images? Will there really be beasts coming from the sea? Will there be locusts with hair flying around with teeth of iron? Will a prostitute really be riding around on a beast with a goblet of the blood of the saints?

Why is it an outrage to you that I would see the 1,000 years as figurative, but you don't expect to see a seven eyed Jesus when stand before him?

Also at Jesus ascension the question by the apostles was concerning the Kingdom for Israel. When will you restore the Kingdom to Israel? Jesus did not rebuke them, nor correct them. In the minds of the apostles a literal Kingdom for the nation of Israel was always an issue. So for the "early church" it was always a concern.

The early church saw themselves as the Kingdom of Israel. They are God's children by faith (either Jew or Gentile), and flesh counts for nothing. It was a universal understanding. It wasn't until Darby that the church was seen as a mere dispensation and God would remove the church to reestablish his covenant with Israel to fulfill supposedly unfulfilled promises. Find me a historical source before 1800 that taught such an idea.

Finally to stack the seals, trumpets, and bowels is nonsense. All cardinal numbers...exegesis does not allow such an idea.

Have you ever read another apocryphal literature-style book? Final judgment occurs 5 times in the book of Revelation. Jesus returns multiple times.

““Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”” (Revelation 7:15–17, ESV)

“The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.”” (Revelation 11:18, ESV)

“Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand. And another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.” So he who sat on the cloud swung his sickle across the earth, and the earth was reaped. Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, the angel who has authority over the fire, and he called with a loud voice to the one who had the sharp sickle, “Put in your sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, for its grapes are ripe.” So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse’s bridle, for 1,600 stadia.” (Revelation 14:14–20, ESV)

“Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God.” (Revelation 19:11–13, ESV)

“And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”” (Revelation 21:3–4, ESV)

So, if we take this chronologically, God wipes the tears from his people's eyes in chapter seven....but then again in chapter 21. The dead are judged in chapters 11, 14, 19 and the end of chapter 20. The heavens open and the presence of God is revealed in chapters 11 and 20. And the Lamb dwells with his people and clothes them in white in chapters 7, 14, 19 and 22. I think there is a better alternative.

These ideas are not "silly" or originating in 1800, those are false arguments.

Well, I think they are silly...more of an opinion than an argument..ill give you that. However, dispensationalism originated in the 1800s. That's just a plain fact. I can quote about a dozen historical sources if you like, or you can take my word for it. Most dispensationalists don't even try to argue this point. Im kinda surprised you guys would debate the issue.

 

[ATP]

I'm saying the Bible doesn't speak of a secret rapture..

But it does..Isa 26:20 NIV, and you're incorrect about Jer 30:7 NIV. The term "time of trouble for Jacob" refers to end times. You are also incorrect about Matt 24:36 NIV, this passage is what is called an "idiom". 1 Thess 5:1-4 NIV says we can know the day and hour but not the year. Rapture will indeed land on the Feast of Trumpets..1 Cor 15:51-52 NIV. What is your knowledge on the Feasts of the Lord in Lev 23? - ATP

 

[Wormwood]

ATP, the book of Isaiah is not about the end times. Isaiah was prophesying to the Israelites about coming judgment. That judgment came in 605 and 586 BC.

1 Thess 5:1-4 NIV says we can know the day and hour but not the year.

It does?

“Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.” (1 Thessalonians 5:1–4, ESV)

Can you quote exactly where is says we can know the day and hour, but not the year? Looks to me like he says nothing needs to be written about times because they know the Lord will come as a thief. Last I checked, thieves do not tell you the day and hour they are coming.

 

[ATP]

ATP, the book of Isaiah is not about the end times. Isaiah was prophesying to the Israelites about coming judgment. That judgment came in 605 and 586 BC.

There are some parts of Isa that are end times prophecy, but anyways. These verses definitely speak of end times. Verse 19 speaks of first resurrection, verse 20 speaks of those in the first resurrection and rapture being protected from God upon His wrath and verse 21 speaks of the 3.5 year great trib of God's wrath...

Isa 26:19-21 NIV But your dead will live, Lord; their bodies will rise—let those who dwell in the dust wake up and shout for joy—your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. 20Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by. 21See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. The earth will disclose the blood shed on it; the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

Dan 12:1-2 NIV “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

It does?

“Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.” (1 Thessalonians 5:1–4, ESV)

Can you quote exactly where is says we can know the day and hour, but not the year? Looks to me like he says nothing needs to be written about times because they know the Lord will come as a thief. Last I checked, thieves do not tell you the day and hour they are coming.

Matt 24:36 NIV is simply used as an idiom. The Lord comes as a thief to nonbelievers, not believers. "Times and seasons" refers to the Feast of Trumpets 1 Cor 15:52 NIV. Paul says we do not need to write to you about these things in 1 Thess 5:1 NIV. Why? Because we will already know. Paul goes on to write, But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.” God's elect will not be in darkness when rapture is here. They will be fully aware, not to mention there will be signs in the sun, moon, stars and earthquake.....

Joel 2:31 NIV The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.

Matt 24:29-31 NIV / Mark 13:24-27 NIV “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Luke 21:25-28 NIV “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

Acts 2:20 NIV The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.

Rev 6:12-14 NIV I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

- ATP