n2thelight
Well-Known Member
Where do you see anywhere in scripture where Christ says He's coming to take anyone to Heaven?Marcus O'Reillius said:And this would be a figurative reading.
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Where do you see anywhere in scripture where Christ says He's coming to take anyone to Heaven?Marcus O'Reillius said:And this would be a figurative reading.
The main reason for the Church to be in Heaven is to be with Christ. John 17:24 " Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world."keras said:Please tell me the reason God wants His church in heaven. I don't see it anywhere, but I do see where He has work for His people on earth.
In John 13:1-3 Jesus says; I will go to heaven.....then: I will come again and take you to Myself.... Making that mean the church goes to heaven, is a serious misapplication of what is actually meant.
In 1 Cor 10:32, Paul separated the Jews from the Gentiles, because the gospel was offered to the Jews first. They rejected it and become the same as the ungodly gentiles in God's sight.
There is only one Christian people of God. Ephesians 4:4-6, John 10:16, Romans 9:6-8 The rest are doomed for destruction. Romans 9:22-26 Note in verse 26, it says ....those whom He has called from among Jews and gentiles ...in the very place......they shall be called sons of the Living God. Where does that happen? IN THE HOLY LAND
Time to really think whether the idea of a rapture outta here is right, because it sure doesn't conform to God's plans for His people.
The church in the wilderness was Israel. Not the Body or Church of Christ.n2thelight said:Acts 7:38 "This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the Angel Which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our father: who received the lively oracles to give unto us."
Could you give the quote from Walvoord and where it is located?keras said:As Dr John Walvoord, a rapture proponent of the Dallas Theological Seminary, actually said in one of his books: 'a rapture to heaven is not found in scripture', then Marcus won't be able to find it either.
But that doesn't stop him from abusing those who challenge his false beliefs.
Sadly, millions have been taught this idea and the thinking is because the majority of believe in a rapture, then it must be true. The sad fact is, like the 50 million Frenchmen, who were all wrong, those who have been fooled into thinking they won't face trials and testing, will be shocked and terrified when the Day of the Lord's wrath suddenly comes upon them. Provided they are true Christians, they will be saved, but only by passing thru fire. 1 Cor 3:13-15
Stranger said:Could you give the quote from Walvoord and where it is located?
We who hold to the rapture know we will face trials and testings. We believe that we will not face the Tribulation.
Marcus O'Rellius makes a good point. Seems that those who want to do away with the rapture also don't want us in Heaven.
Stranger
When Christ is on earth, the Church will be with Him. When He is in Heaven, the Church will be with Him.n2thelight said:John 17:24 "Father, I will that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am; that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me: for Thou lovedst Me before the foundation of the world."
He will be on earth
And what would you have us do with
John 17:15 "I pray not that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil."
See my reply #43.n2thelight said:John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."
Where does it say we go to Heaven when He receives us?
Jesus was with Moses and the "congregation" of Hebrews, the 12 tribes, in the wilderness. - Literal reading in context with the passage where Stephen is giving a rendition of history to the rabbis - teaching the teachers, eh? How'd that work out for him?n2thelight said:Acts 7:38 "This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the Angel Which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our father: who received the lively oracles to give unto us."
You know, rabbi keras is such a poor student, that he should never teach. I have to check everything he says because so often, as is the case here - the "facts" upon which he lays his foundation - are a lie.keras said:As Dr John Walvoord, a rapture proponent of the Dallas Theological Seminary, actually said in one of his books: 'a rapture to heaven is not found in scripture', then Marcus won't be able to find it either.
Same as answer as Stranger - and the same one I've given before: John 14:1-3.n2thelight said:Where do you see anywhere in scripture where Christ says He's coming to take anyone to Heaven?
You have taken Jesus' prayer on the eve of His Crucifixion out of context and you have reversed the order to force it to say what it does not say.n2thelight said:John 17:24 "Father, I will that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am; that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me: for Thou lovedst Me before the foundation of the world."
He will be on earth
And what would you have us do with
John 17:15 "I pray not that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil."
What anyone 'wants', will have nothing to do with how God will reward or punish. Hating and abusing those who try to point out the Bible truths, shows an unchristian attitude.Stranger said:Could you give the quote from Walvoord and where it is located?
We who hold to the rapture know we will face trials and testings. We believe that we will not face the Tribulation.
Marcus O'Rellius makes a good point. Seems that those who want to do away with the rapture also don't want us in Heaven.
Stranger
The Tribulation is mainly for unbelieving Israel. The unbelieving of the earth are secondary. But it's their just due as they are unbelieving also. It is the time of 'Jacobs Trouble'. Which is why the Church isn't there.keras said:What anyone 'wants', will have nothing to do with how God will reward or punish. Hating and abusing those who try to point out the Bible truths, shows an unchristian attitude.
The Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, is mainly directed at the ungodly peoples. Despite these disasters happening, they still refuse to repent of what they had done. Revelation 16:11
But we Christians will still be on earth to see it, half in the holy Land and half of us in a place of safety. Zechariah 14:1-2, Revelation 12
In the first edition of his book, 'The Rapture Question', Dr John Walvoord wrote: A rapture is determined more by ecclestology, [theology of the church] than eschatology. [theology of the last things]
Neither postribulationism nor pretribulationism is an explicit teaching of scripture. The Bible does not state it in so many words.
In the book; 'Rapture: The End Times Error that leaves the Bible Behind', by David Currie, he says: Walvoord's admission, that a rapture to heaven is not a clear and concise teaching of the Scriptures, was so explosive that in all future editions of that book it was deleted.
But there it is: nowhere does one passage of the Bible speak of a rapture to heaven of anyone on or before the Second coming of Jesus. Rapture believers must try to justify their belief by piecing bits of verses together here and there.
[removed]keras said:But the fact there is no actual supporting scripture for this idea, is no deterrent because some scriptures can be made to infer the idea of a rapture. There are prophesies telling about spiritual happenings, but none of them actually say that any living people will be taken to heaven.