Rapture ... soon?

[Ronald David Bruno]

Wow so the power of the Holy Spirit is powerless against evil?.... what a crock!

Thr Restrainer is the Holy Spirit. We are the Temple of the Holy Spirit, so when we go, He goes. What would be the purpose of that? The Restrainer has restrained evil since the beginning, allowing it for a purpose. But God's purpose, during the Great Tribulation is judgment, punishment for all those who rejected Christ. So now they must deal with evil let loose. That includes evil within every individual. You see family members going after eachother without restraint. Demons will be released from the Abyss and so all he'll will literally break loose. Love grows cold because since God is love, He withdraws from the scene so that people will see what it is like without Him. And then whatever leaders of nuclear nations you have left behind, likely all of them, knee jerk decisions to press buttons will be done. HELL ON EARTH IS COMING! The Bible does not make light of this by saying it will be the most stressful time in history.
We restrain evil doers in prison..imagine all of a sudden all those prisoners were let loose and all police disappeared.
Who ya gonna call, Ghost Busters?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

He didn't make the prediction on Sept 23rd. He made the prediction 3 weeks ago

He claimed to have had his visitation in 2018. Just believe that it was a false prophecy, it's okay. I might join you on Oct. 8. ??

 

[David in NJ]

No, where did you get that idea? The gospel means literally "a good message". It is something that is being preached and heard. And when somebody believes it, only then they are entering the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God is "righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit" (R 14:17).


The culmination of ages was dependent of many signs and events and the gospel being preached to nations was one of them.

No, where did you get that idea?

JESUS told me

 

[David in NJ]

Depends on if you think normal life, and commerce, and everyday life, and planning for the future, is anything but what it says.

What???
You think pretending it is not in the bible, is your basis for your doctrine????

Yep...you just basically admitted you can not defend the truth spoken by Jesus.

Maybe read it R E A L S L OW;

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

YEPPER = SAME as today = right up to His 2nd Coming = 1 Thess 5:1-3

But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
And they shall not escape.

 

[David in NJ]

No they do not. If you keep verses in their proper context you would know it is speaking of the saved of the tribulation. The trib is the wrath of God. And Paul in thess. says we will be delivered from the wrath to come- that is why there is a pre trib rapture.

Still waiting for your biblical evidence that I am belieiving and promoting lies.

This is the BIG MISTAKE that pre-trib must adhere to = "the trib is the wrath of God"

The tribulation began in Genesis, in the Garden.
Satan brought on the Tribulation
Satan is the god of this Age/world and he is responsible for the Great Tribulation = Revelation 12:7-12

Satan's wrath is the Great Tribulation.

Once that is accomplished, the LORD Returns and brings the Wrath of God down upon all who joined in the Rebellion of 2 Thess ch2

 

[David in NJ]

Yeah, fat chance of that ever happening.




Wow so the power of the Holy Spirit is powerless against evil?.... what a crock!

That's definitely doctrines of demons designed to trick Christians in to laying down and giving up allowing the devil to walk all over them.

That's not how Jesus lived during His time here on earth.... the devil tried every way he possibly could to hurt Jesus and it was like water off a ducks back as Jesus kept Himself min the Love of God and that wicked one was unable to touch Him

John 14:30
the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

1 John 5:18
he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Wow so the power of the Holy Spirit is powerless against evil?.... what a crock!

You continue to disregard the words of Christ i SEE

And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.
So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

1 John 5:18
he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

You misrepresent what JESUS says here!!!

Go share this scripture to our Brothers and Sisters in Christ who are watching their families/loved ones brutally murdered for their faith in Christ.

 

[PinSeeker]

You said: "I hope you're speaking of the apostles, here, because no one else wrote anything in the New Testament".
Your claim is not true, Luke and Mark were not apostles.

Right. I didn't really "make a claim." I just did not immediately think of Luke and Mark. If you want to feel good about yourself "getting me" with a "gotcha" thing, then... I don't care. <smile>

It seems to me you do not remember what you say. And that is what makes the conversation confusing.

Nobody's perfect. <smile> I've been fielding a lot of different (and rather wild) comments in this thread.

So, the sentence of Jesus had no real meaning...

Oh, everything He said certainly had meaning... <smile>

, it is a common, even often event, which you see, too.

Just to clarify, the coming of the kingdom, right? Well, if so, you know Jesus also said the kingdom was already here. So how do you reconcile those two statements?

Yeah... this is a twisting of Scriptures, which is quite common today.

Nope. But this is a common accusation...

People want to defend their view more than the Scriptures.

Well, I mean, people want to think they're right; you obviously do, too.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Scott Downey]

Jesus himself declared the rapture pretrib.

It is so easy to understand.

I honestly think postribs see themselves running from cave to cave, trying to escape the Antichrist who is chasing after them with a sword to chop their heads off since they are so powerful and so awesome christians he somehow can't see them.

It CLEARLY SAYS ALL REFUSING THE MARK DIE.
CLEARLY.

How can anyone imagine a devil man coming, Which kicks off the tribulation, with a crown and a bow ( bow points to 7 yr covenant), and he makes life BETTER FOR CHRISTIANS AND JEWS ????????.

Postibs believe that??? ?

You means this here?
Rev 14
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

12 Here is the [g]patience of the saints; here[h] are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying [i]to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

 

[Scott Downey]

And, not all believers are killed before Christ returns, some have been preserved alive.
Perhaps the governments at that time make show trials of believers, maybe some are hidden, some are imprisoned, point is we dont know really. There are safe places in the world, so the beast's government has to catch you.

 

[Scott Downey]

Obviously when Christ returns this happens, a gathering of believers, and the wicked and unbelieving experience a sudden destruction.
This was meant to comfort the church
Jesus told us to be aware, sober discerning the times, and watch for His return.

1 Thessalonians 5
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be [a]sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

11 Therefore [b]comfort each other and [c]edify one another, just as you also are doing.

 

[Scott Downey]

2 Thessalonians 2, the gathering, and this was written to comfort and edify the church. That God had chosen them for salvation
The gathering of living believers happens at the return of Christ, and at that time Christ destroys the evil one.


Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of [b]sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the [d]mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only [e]He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Stand Fast​

13 But we are [f]bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through [g]sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our [h]epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and [i]establish you in every good word and work.

 

[Bladerunner]

The 'Restrainer' is not the Church

The Restrainer is the Holy Spirit within all the true believers who are part of His Spiritual Church at least until they die. The they become a physical part of it.

The world is embracing evil.

Yes, as in the Days of Noah where "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.". Gen 6:5

The evil will be unbearable for those who are not part of it.

 

[HealthyShape]

Right. I didn't really "make a claim." I just did not immediately think of Luke and Mark. If you want to feel good about yourself "getting me" with a "gotcha" thing, then... I don't care. <smile>

It is not about me feeling good, it is about that you say something and then you say you did not say that etc. It makes the conversation confusing. Just tell truth the whole time, do not use dismissive vague answers and things will be clear.

Just to clarify, the coming of the kingdom, right? Well, if so, you know Jesus also said the kingdom was already here. So how do you reconcile those two statements?

I think that the coming of the kingdom of God was a process that started with John the Baptist and culminated with the second coming.

 

[HealthyShape]

The wrath of God aka the tribulation or 70th week of Daniel is a global event. It centers on Jerusalem, for its greatest purpose is to prepare the nation Of Israel to receive Her Messiah.

Ezekiel 20:33-38​

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King James Version​

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33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:
34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.
37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:
38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

Jeremiah 31:33-37​

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King James Version​

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33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

And A study of Scripture shows that Gods wrath is directed only at two things.

1. Sin in General
2. The tribulation is called the wrath of God in numerous passages.
3. The Lake of Fire is never called wrath- but is called the final judgment of unbelievers. That is why we know from Scripture the rapture of teh church happens sometime before Israel signs the 7 year covenant with the Antichrist starting th etribulation oor the 70th week of Daniel, which afterwards Jesus physically returns to earth to establish the Millennial kingdom promised to Israel.

The Old Testament prophecies are understood only in the light of the New Testament. Do you have the New Testament verses demonstrating that the wrath in 1Thess which Thessalonians were saved from was the same event as the tribulation of Jews in Judea Jesus talked about?

By global, you mean the persecution during Nero, for example? What was happening in Thessaloniki, specifically?

 

[HealthyShape]

2 Thessalonians 2, the gathering, and this was written to comfort and edify the church. That God had chosen them for salvation
The gathering of living believers happens at the return of Christ, and at that time Christ destroys the evil one.


Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of [b]sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the [d]mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only [e]He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Stand Fast​

13 But we are [f]bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through [g]sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our [h]epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and [i]establish you in every good word and work.

But you believe that it is still in the future and that neither Paul nor Thessalonians had anything to do with it, right? I am a bit confused about your position, now.

Paul could just say: "Do not be troubled, it is not about us at all, it will take thousands of years till our Lord comes, this Jerusalem and this temple need to be destroyed first, then the new ones built... we do not live in the last days."

Of course, it would be the exact opposite of the New Testament teaching, but that is what the majority of Christians believe and how they read the texts.

 

[David in NJ]

The Restrainer is the Holy Spirit within all the true believers who are part of His Spiritual Church at least until they die. The they become a physical part of it.

Yes, as in the Days of Noah where "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.". Gen 6:5

So your thesis is that the Holy Spirit is physically restrained/confined inside true believers??? = The Scriptures never declare this


No one becomes a physical part of the Holy Spirit as the Holy Spirit is SPIRIT = our physical bodies have been cursed by God to die

Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.
You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.
But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

 

[David in NJ]

Good Morning @Bladerunner

 

[David in NJ]

But you believe that it is still in the future and that neither Paul nor Thessalonians had anything to do with it, right? I am a bit confused about your position, now.

Paul could just say: "Do not be troubled, it is not about us at all, it will take thousands of years till our Lord comes, this Jerusalem and this temple need to be destroyed first, then the new ones built... we do not live in the last days."

Of course, it would be the exact opposite of the New Testament teaching, but that is what the majority of Christians believe and how they read the texts.

without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God

also = Good Morning

 

[PinSeeker]

It is not about me feeling good, it is about that you say something and then you say you did not say that etc. It makes the conversation confusing.

And I said it was just a misunderstanding. That's all. Which it was. Again, regarding Luke and Mark, yes, they were not apostles; I just did not immediately think of them in referring to the apostles and the New Testament authors. And I was kidding ~ poking at you, so to speak ~ with the "feeling good" thing, really.

Just tell truth the whole time...

I do.

...do not use dismissive vague answers...

I do not. But I will be summarily dismissive of this or that if I think it is appropriate to do so.

I think that the coming of the kingdom of God was a process that started with John the Baptist and culminated with the second coming.

Ah, "culminated with the second coming"... past tense... Well that's a bit of a problem... <smile> But at least we seem to be in agreement concerning the coming of the kingdom.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Bladerunner]

Good Morning @Bladerunner

good evening