Rapture Thoughts of Some Early Church Leaders

[William Barton]

Revelation 1-22 consists of a number of figurative prophetic parallels (most believe seven in total) revealing the overall battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. They relate, like every other New Testament book, to the period running between the first and Second Advents. John basically goes behind the scenes into the spiritual realm and articulates in symbolic form the enormity of the great conflict between light and darkness. In the book of Revelation, we get a perceptive insight into the invisible realm.

Parallels are simply different camera views of the same corresponding intra-Advent period which look at different aspects of the great battle between darkness and light. Basically, it is telling the same story from different angles.

Looking at Revelation 10:5-7, there is clearly a major dilemma for you those who take Revelation to be a literal chronological unfolding of last day events. They must surely concede, if they are going to be consistent with their view that everything after Revelation 11 (which also makes reference to the seventh trumpet) is in the realm of eternity and the after-life. After all Revelation 10 plainly records that with this particular event “there should be time no longer.” For those who would lightly dismiss this important narrative as anything other than a magnificent picture of the Lord Jesus Christ and His glorious Second coming, they do foolishly ignore the great wealth of explicit and consistent end-time teaching on this subject and divorce the undoubted harmony of this chapter from the rest of New Testament prophetic teaching.

How could Revelation be chronological when we do not read of the birth of Christ until Revelation 12? The millennium does not follow Revelation 17-19 in time, but rather parallels it. Revelation 20 is the last of 7 recapitulations.

The ESV Study Bible states: “Revelation unveils the unseen spiritual war in which the church is engaged: the cosmic conflict between God and his Christ on the one hand, and Satan and his evil allies (both demonic and human) on the other. In this conflict, Jesus the Lamb has already won the decisive victory through his sacrificial death, but his church continues to be assaulted by the dragon, in its death-throes, through persecution, false teaching, and the allure of material affluence and cultural approval. By revealing the spiritual realities lying behind the church’s trials and temptations during the time between Christ’s first and second comings, and by dramatically affirming the certainty of Christ’s triumph in the new heaven and earth, the visions granted to John both warn the church and fortify it to endure suffering and to stay pure from the defiling enticements of the present world order.”

Revelation is designed to enlighten God’s people, stir their hearts and increase their faith. Significantly, the conclusion of each parallel terminates with a record of the glorious Second Advent, which includes the rescue of His saint and the final destruction of the wicked.

Those who have eyes to see will get the general thrust of the book! That does not mean we will grasp every minute detail. But we should get the overall message of the apocalypse.

Cycle 1

Seven Churches (Ch 2-3)

Cycle 2

Seven Seals (Ch 6-8:1)

Cycle 3

Seven Trumpets (Ch 8-11)

Cycle 4

The Church and its onslaught from the devil and the beast’s and ultimate victory in heaven.

Cycle 5

Seven Vials (Ch 15-16)

Cycle 6

Babylon (Ch 17-19)

Cycle 7

The spiritual binding of Satan from the cross. The advance of the Gospel to the nations. The victorious reign of the saints in heaven. The ushering in of the New Heaven and the New Earth (Ch 20-22:1-5).

"Chronological" stems from Greek:
χρονος = time
λογoς= reckoning
I.e. according to time.

IMO the Bible is not strictly chronolological. It may make reference to past/future events as the narrative progresses, certainly a common literary device.

The old covenant is gone forever. We are now in the new. It is time to leave it. God is no respecter of persons today. All races are on the same level. So, am i getting you right, Enoch and Elisha are nor literal characters? They symbolically represent the whole Church?

As I mentioned, they are Christian martyrs.

A covenant is an agreement that can never be broken by either party. The old covenant is one of works, which no one can meet (see Romans 7:7).

The new covenant is one of grace ("unmerited favor").

 

[WPM]

"Chronological" stems from Greek:
χρονος = time
λογoς= reckoning
I.e. according to time.

IMO the Bible is not strictly chronolological. It may make reference to past/future events as the narrative progresses, certainly a common literary device.

As I mentioned, they are Christian martyrs.

A covenant is an agreement that can never be broken by either party. The old covenant is one of works, which no one can meet (see Romans 7:7).

The new covenant is one of grace ("unmerited favor").

So, the old covenant is still active today?

 

[William Barton]

1. Where in Daniel 9 does it mention the Church?
2. Where does it mentioned a rapture?
3. Where does it mention a tribulation period?
4. Where does it mention a 3rd coming?

1. Daniel is a member, deserves it more than I do.
2. Revelation 14:14-16 Jesus descends to a cloud (rapture).
3. Revelation 19:11-21 Jesus returns with his mighty angels.
4. Revelation 21-22 (new heavens and earth).

 

[WPM]

1. Daniel is a member, deserves it more than I do.
2. Revelation 14:14-16 Jesus descended to a cloud.
3. Revelation 19:11-21.
4. Revelation 21-22 (new heavens and earth).

So, you have nothing in Daniel 9 or anywhere else to support your 7 year trib, as you previously claimed. I knew that. No Futurist can. That is because it is extra-biblical teaching.

 

[William Barton]

WPM noted:
<I knew that>
Of course you did. For the others here:

o "Seven" (Dan 9:25) is seven 360-day years.
o "Decree to rebuild temple" was by order of King Cyrus (see Ezra 1:2).
o The date of this decree was March 5, 444 B.C.
o The building was supervised by Nehemiah.
o "Coming ruler" (Dan 9:26) is Jesus, coming on a colt (Luke 9:35).
o This was on March 30, 30 A.D., 69 sevens after the decree of Cyrus.
o "One seven" is the length of the reign of the coming ruler (Dan 9:27).
o This will begin at an unspecified future time.
o I use the term "end times" to indicate his rule.
o He is commonly called "Anti-Christ," i.e. "False Christ."
o At the end of this last seven is new heavens/earth (Rev chpts 21,22).

 

[WPM]

WPM noted:
<I knew that>
Of course you did. For the others here:

o "Seven" (Dan 9:25) is seven 360-day years.
o "Decree to rebuild" was by order of King Cyrus (see Ezra 1:2).
o The date of this decree was March 5, 444 B.C.
o The building was supervised by Nehemiah.
o "Coming ruler" (Dan 9:26) is Jesus, coming on a colt (Luke 9:35).
o This was on March 30, 30 A.D., 69 sevens after the decree of Cyrus.
o "One seven" is the length of the reign of the coming ruler (Dan 9:27).
o This will begin at an unspecified future time.
o I use the term "end times" to indicate his rule.
o He is commonly called "Anti-Christ," i.e. "False Christ."

Where is your rapture passage that clearly shows a 7-yr trib? It seems like you are holding unto what you have been taught instead of what the Book explicitly teaches.

Obviously it doesn't exist. This is 1 of a thousand reasons why I abandoned Pretrib. Many have and are doing similar.

 

[William Barton]

Where is your rapture passage that clearly shows a 7-yr trib? It seems like you are holding unto what you have been taught instead of what the Book explicitly teaches.

Obviously it doesn't exist. This is 1 of a thousand reasons why I abandoned Pretrib. Many have and are doing similar.

It's arithmatic.

I documented the 69 sevens. That leaves one seven, at a time future to today.

 

[WPM]

It's arithmatic.

I documented the 69 sevens. That leaves one seven, at a time future to today.

Your theology doesn't add up. Christ was crucified in the middle of the last week. It is fulfilled. You guys attribute to antichrist what pertains to Christ. Very troubling! Daniel 9 makes no mention of the Church, a rapture, a 7-year tribulation, or a third coming. You were unable to show that, because it doesn't exist. You have nothing in this passage. You also have nothing in the New Testament. It is a man-made belief foisted on Scripture.

 

[WPM]

"Chronological" stems from Greek:
χρονος = time
λογoς= reckoning
I.e. according to time.

IMO the Bible is not strictly chronolological. It may make reference to past/future events as the narrative progresses, certainly a common literary device.

As I mentioned, they are Christian martyrs.

A covenant is an agreement that can never be broken by either party. The old covenant is one of works, which no one can meet (see Romans 7:7).

The new covenant is one of grace ("unmerited favor").

So, the old covenant is still active today?

 

[WPM]

WPM noted:
<I knew that>
Of course you did. For the others here:

o "Seven" (Dan 9:25) is seven 360-day years.
o "Decree to rebuild temple" was by order of King Cyrus (see Ezra 1:2).
o The date of this decree was March 5, 444 B.C.
o The building was supervised by Nehemiah.
o "Coming ruler" (Dan 9:26) is Jesus, coming on a colt (Luke 9:35).
o This was on March 30, 30 A.D., 69 sevens after the decree of Cyrus.
o "One seven" is the length of the reign of the coming ruler (Dan 9:27).
o This will begin at an unspecified future time.
o I use the term "end times" to indicate his rule.
o He is commonly called "Anti-Christ," i.e. "False Christ."
o At the end of this last seven is new heavens/earth (Rev chpts 21,22).

If Pretrib was in Daniel 9 you would have presented it before now. The fact is: it is not! The burden of proof is with you! You presented Daniel 9 as a proof text, when it is in fact nothing of the sort. It is not there, or in any of the texts that you referenced. That is why you cannot answer my questions. I do not need to prove that something doesn't exist. It is plainly not in the text! That is enough! It is you that is inserting Pretrib where it does not exist!

This is a classic example of manipulating Scripture to fit your doctrine. Clearly, both the method and the doctrine are wrong, thus the conclusion is wrong. William E Cox says in his book Biblical Studies in Final Things: “the futurist arbitrarily places a gap between the sixty-nine and seventieth weeks of Daniels’ prophecy. He does this without one verse of Scripture or one iota of historical data to back up his argument.”

History shows that the 490 years were linear, congruent and sequential. Those of us that take 490 years to mean exactly that do not have to prove that it is harmonious; we just have to accept what it states. We take it literally (1) because it happened literally, (2) there is no command to decapitate it and project it into the unknown. Seven multiplied by seventy comes to 490 cohesive unitary years, not 2,500 broken up years and counting. The clincher is: there is no gap mentioned in the prophecy so there is no need or warrant to insert one in there.

 

[WPM]

It's arithmatic.

I documented the 69 sevens. That leaves one seven, at a time future to today.

The unitary 70 weeks are clearly split into 3 (integral) parts.

7 = 49 yrs
62 = 434 yrs
1 = 7 yrs

Total = 490 (harmonious unitary) years

Whilst, the last week is still not fully described we will look at the overall outline at this juncture for a blueprint.

(1) The first part (7 weeks) relates to the rebuilding of Jerusalem. The angel said of the first aspect relating to the rebuilding of Jerusalem, in the first seven weeks, “the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.”
(2) The second part (62 weeks) takes up to the beginning of Christ’s earthly ministry.
(3) The third part (1 week) commences with the start of Christ’s earthly ministry and sees the crucifixion half way through it (3 ½ yrs). The other 3 ½ yrs saw the Church receive its baptism of fire at Pentecost and enter into the fulfilment of advancing the Gospel – the nations now being open to the Gospel, unlike before.

The question the futurists must honestly answer is, despite there been placed a marker between the 49th and 50th year, is there any natural gap between the 7 weeks and the 62 weeks?

The answer, of course, is a categorical no!

 

[William Barton]

So, the old covenant is still active today?

IMO:
o. The old covenant was established by God (Genesis 6:18).
o. At a later time a new covenant was offered (Jeremiah 31:31).

A covenant by definition cannot be broken by either party, but it CAN be redcinded by *mutual* conscent.

Jesus suffered a horrible, painful, disgraceful death and God the Father accepted that as payment for anyone/everyone who will run to the tower:

"Out of the anguish of his soul [God the Father] will see and be satisfied..."
(Isaiah 53:11).

"The name of the Lord is a strong tower, the righteous run to it and are safe."(Proverbs 18:10)

BTW
Daniel 9:27 indicates a coming ruler, who is on good terms with the Romans. He brokers a covenant between the Romans and the Jews (necessary because the Jews decline to acknowledge the Roman gods), so that both parties are saisfied.

The Jews are elated, particularly since he then oversees reconstruction of the Jewish temple. Their elation turns to horror when he takes his seat in the newly-built temple, proclaiming himself to be God (2Thessalonians 2:4).

 

[WPM]

IMO:
o. The old covenant was established by God (Genesis 6:18).
o. At a later time a new covenant was offered (Jeremiah 31:31).

A covenant by definition cannot be broken by either party, but it CAN be redcinded by *mutual* conscent.

Jesus suffered a horrible, painful, disgraceful death and God the Father accepted that as payment for anyone/everyone who will run to the tower:

"Out of the anguish of his soul [God the Father] will see and be satisfied..."
(Isaiah 53:11).

"The name of the Lord is a strong tower, the righteous run to it and are safe."(Proverbs 18:10)

BTW
Daniel 9:27 indicates a coming ruler, who is on good terms with the Romans. He brokers a covenant between the Romans and the Jews (necessary because the Jews decline to acknowledge the Roman gods), so that both parties are saisfied.

The Jews are elated, particularly since he then oversees reconstruction of the Jewish temple. Their elation turns to horror when he takes his seat in the newly-built temple, proclaiming himself to be God (2Thessalonians 2:4).

You invent a definition of covenant and then force your teaching into it.

Did God get Adam's agreement in the Garden? No. Did the covenant of the rainbow involve man agreeing to it. No. Why was Abraham put to sleep when the sacrifice was made? Hello! Man enjoys the benefits of the covenant arrangement that God makes.

Christ fulfilled the old ceremonial covenant and abolished it completely. It will never arise. It is finished.

 

[covenantee]

BTW
Daniel 9:27 indicates a coming ruler, who is on good terms with the Romans. He brokers a covenant between the Romans and the Jews (necessary because the Jews decline to acknowledge the Roman gods), so that both parties are saisfied.

The Jews are elated, particularly since he then oversees reconstruction of the Jewish temple. Their elation turns to horror when he takes his seat in the newly-built temple, proclaiming himself to be God (2Thessalonians 2:4).

Debunked.

 

[WPM]

IMO:
o. The old covenant was established by God (Genesis 6:18).
o. At a later time a new covenant was offered (Jeremiah 31:31).

A covenant by definition cannot be broken by either party, but it CAN be redcinded by *mutual* conscent.

Jesus suffered a horrible, painful, disgraceful death and God the Father accepted that as payment for anyone/everyone who will run to the tower:

"Out of the anguish of his soul [God the Father] will see and be satisfied..."
(Isaiah 53:11).

"The name of the Lord is a strong tower, the righteous run to it and are safe."(Proverbs 18:10)

BTW
Daniel 9:27 indicates a coming ruler, who is on good terms with the Romans. He brokers a covenant between the Romans and the Jews (necessary because the Jews decline to acknowledge the Roman gods), so that both parties are saisfied.

The Jews are elated, particularly since he then oversees reconstruction of the Jewish temple. Their elation turns to horror when he takes his seat in the newly-built temple, proclaiming himself to be God (2Thessalonians 2:4).

Colossians 2:14 plainly and unambiguously declares, that Christ's atonement resulted in the “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.”

The Greek word for “Blotting out” here is exaleiphō (eks-ä-lā'-fō) meaning: ‘to wipe off, wipe away, to obliterate, erase, wipe out, blot out’

These old covenant ordinances (rites and rituals) pertaining to the ceremonial law were obliterated at the cross.

For those that still anticipate the renaissance of the old abolished ordinances we need to ask: When did (or will) the “blotting out the handwriting of ordinances” occur? From this passage it is clear, Christ “took it out of the way” by “nailing it to his cross.” These ordinances embraced the old covenant civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical law. They were finished at the cross.

Colossians 2:16-17 tells us: “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.”

The Greek word translated “holyday” here is heorte meaning feast or festival. Of 27 mentions of this word in the normally precise KJV, it is interpreted “feast” in all of them apart from here.

New American Standard interprets: “Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day -- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.”

The Living Bible says, “So don't let anyone criticize you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating Jewish holidays and feasts or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. For these were only temporary rules that ended when Christ came. They were only shadows of the real thing-of Christ himself.”

Paul is saying here that the old covenant feasts and festivals simply served as types and shadows of things that were to come. They looked forward to the new covenant arrangement and the reality and substance in Christ. The Jews of Ezekiel’s day and Zechariah’s day would never have understood this.

Colossians 2:20-22 finally sums up the sums up the biblical position today: “Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using) after the commandments and doctrines of men?”

This is not talking about the moral law, it is talking about the ceremonial law. It is a redundant system. Christ took the whole old system away. The old Mosaic ceremonial law is completely gone. It is useless.

Christianity took us away from the old Mosaic ceremonial law completely. Those who argue for a return to the old system fail to see that it has been rendered obsolete through the new covenant.

Hebrews 7:18-19 makes clear: “For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.”

This word “disannulling” is taken from the Greek word athetesis meaning cancellation.

The phrase “weakness and unprofitableness” used here to describe the old abolished system actually reads asthenes kai anopheles literally meaning: feeble and impotent useless and unprofitable.

It is hard to believe that Christians would promote the return, on the new earth of all places, of such a hopeless discarded arrangement.

 

[WPM]

IMO:
o. The old covenant was established by God (Genesis 6:18).
o. At a later time a new covenant was offered (Jeremiah 31:31).

A covenant by definition cannot be broken by either party, but it CAN be redcinded by *mutual* conscent.

Jesus suffered a horrible, painful, disgraceful death and God the Father accepted that as payment for anyone/everyone who will run to the tower:

"Out of the anguish of his soul [God the Father] will see and be satisfied..."
(Isaiah 53:11).

"The name of the Lord is a strong tower, the righteous run to it and are safe."(Proverbs 18:10)

BTW
Daniel 9:27 indicates a coming ruler, who is on good terms with the Romans. He brokers a covenant between the Romans and the Jews (necessary because the Jews decline to acknowledge the Roman gods), so that both parties are saisfied.

The Jews are elated, particularly since he then oversees reconstruction of the Jewish temple. Their elation turns to horror when he takes his seat in the newly-built temple, proclaiming himself to be God (2Thessalonians 2:4).

The New Testament Scripture makes abundantly clear that Christ was the final sacrifice for sin (Romans 6:10, Hebrews 7:27, 9:12, 28, 10:10, 12, 14 and 1 Peter 3:18) and that there are no more offerings for sin (Hebrews 9:26, 10:18, 26 and 1 John 3:5). The reality is, one can search the New Testament pages, but can search Revelation 20 from start to finish, and there is not the slightest allowance for such a religious sham in the presence of Jesus in the age to come. They will never happen, neither for atonement or memorial. This is a Premil invention!

Scripture describes the old covenant sacrificial system as “that which is done away” (2 Corinthians 3:11) and “that which is abolished” (2 Corinthians 3:13). It makes clear: “the old testament … vail is done away in Christ" (2 Corinthians 3:14). Hebrews 10:9 confirms: “He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” Hebrews 10:2 confirms they “ceased to be offered?