Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

[tzcho2]

I still would love to know how so many of you come up with a future EVENT you call "THE" Tribulation — or worse yet, "THE" Great Tribulation — when all Jesus ever did was warn those people living at the same moment in time that He lived on Earth, (the ones standing right there in front of Him, listening to Him), that in the days coming, they were going to experience "great tribulation." (That means, "a lot of trouble.") Which they did.

Unfortunately that misses a great deal of the Lord's message & what the Bible predicts for the end times. It seems you go for a watered down version of Christianity.

 

[tzcho2]

There is no such thing as the "rapture"!

To you.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

So,let's try again maybe
Why would any true Roman renounce their faith if salvation is a gift from God, either?

And now you are comparing me to a Roman who renounced his/her faith? One can, of course refuse a gift, but once it is truly accepted, it starts a process that is not possible to undo--even to the point of martyrdom. Peter was weak in the faith at first, and cowardly--but, was martyred eventually. He could have renounced his faith but he did not--something must have happened to him. That something was a Someone--the Holy Spirit.

 

[amadeus]

Plenty of "born-again" OT I guess, and prolly pretty sketchy to equate our ritual to it too I bet

And of all people, let us look at the first anointed King of all natural Israel according to the scripture:

"And the spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man." I Sam 10:6

"And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them." I Sam 10:10

Of course looking at this and the final result for Saul according to scripture when he is rejected by God, this also brings to mind the problem some people present with their insistent belief in OSAS. Has God ever changed?

 

[bbyrd009]

And now you are comparing me to a Roman who renounced his/her faith

Ha no, not at all, you have IDed your "we" quite innocently and accurately as "Christian," right, and I am not disputing that, but merely pointing out that, um, Jesus was Jewish? lol
Or I mean to say that "Christian" is now the accepted standard, see, when Roman Centurion's daughters got raised too, and even a Samaritan was deemed "accepted" and "to be followed" now and then, ok? No conversions, no rituals, none of the things that we might look for iow

 

[Helen]

To you.

If you'd noticed a post of mine...you would have seen that I said to Willie, or maybe to Naomi .... "I sometimes forget to qualify my statement with rapture as taught..."
Obviously at the very end..there will be rapture and we see Him face to face...

 

[bbyrd009]

If you have seen Me then you have seen the Father
you will see Him come down the same way you saw Him go up!

And of all people, let us look at the first anointed King of all natural Israel according to the scripture:

"And the spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man." I Sam 10:6

"And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them." I Sam 10:10

Of course looking at this and the final result for Saul according to scripture when he is rejected by God, this also brings to mind the problem some people present with their insistent belief in OSAS. Has God ever changed?

nice imo, yes, and I crashed and burned just like Saul did too, at least metaphorically speaking. Dunno how common that is tho.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

To you.

Agreed, tzcho2. Which brings up the question, what if you are not watching for the Lord's return for His Church? Weren't we told to keep watch for our Bridegroom? In the Lord's telling of the Ten Bridesmaids, only five of them had enough oil in their lamps. They were able to watch for the Bridegroom and went with him to the wedding. The other five were left out. Does that have meaning in this situation?

 

[tzcho2]

Agreed, tzcho2. Which brings up the question, what if you are not watching for the Lord's return for His Church? Weren't we told to keep watch for our Bridegroom? In the Lord's telling of the Ten Bridesmaids, only five of them had enough oil in their lamps. They were able to watch for the Bridegroom and went with him to the wedding. The other five were left out. Does that have meaning in this situation?

That thought has crossed my mind also. (pun intended )

 

[tzcho2]

And now you are comparing me to a Roman who renounced his/her faith? One can, of course refuse a gift, but once it is truly accepted, it starts a process that is not possible to undo--even to the point of martyrdom. Peter was weak in the faith at first, and cowardly--but, was martyred eventually. He could have renounced his faith but he did not--something must have happened to him. That something was a Someone--the Holy Spirit.

Amen! The pentecost , plus, they saw Christ Jesus rise from the dead. As if all the miracles, healing, rebuking the wind & water, raising the dead, casting out demons & walking on water, and seeing Jesus transfiguration, talking to Moses & Elijah wasn't enough!!

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

And of all people, let us look at the first anointed King of all natural Israel according to the scripture:

"And the spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man." I Sam 10:6

"And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them." I Sam 10:10

Of course looking at this and the final result for Saul according to scripture when he is rejected by God, this also brings to mind the problem some people present with their insistent belief in OSAS. Has God ever changed?

Saul wasn't a part of Christ's Church--which was indwelt corporately as well as each individual Christian was and is. The evidence of being indwelt by the Holy Spirit is the Fruit of the Spirit. In OT times, faith produced obedience. The fact that Saul was disobedient points to his lack of faith. He seems to have been pretty carnal. Apparently, there was something within Saul that made him resist the Lord's ministry to him.

 

[amadeus]

If you have seen Me then you have seen the Father
you will see Him come down the same way you saw Him go up!
nice imo, yes, and I crashed and burned just like Saul did too, at least metaphorically speaking. Dunno how common that is tho.

So did I my friend, so did I! But a testimony does not always convince someone of anything, does it?

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Amen! The pentecost , plus, they saw Christ Jesus rise from the dead. As if all the miracles, healing, rebuking the wind & water, raising the dead, casting out demons & walking on water, and seeing Jesus transfiguration, talking to Moses & Elijah wasn't enough!!

Yes--those are very interesting points. Even after the Resurrection, according to the gospel of Luke, Peter STILL was left wondering what happened after he saw the empty tomb! (Luke 24:12) In spite of being told that the Resurrection was going to occur, he still did not truly believe--he actually seemed to pop in and out of faith. Once the Church was formed at Pentecost, he never seemed to doubt again. Peter may have been born again even earlier when the Risen Christ appeared to the disciples. Jesus breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit".

 

[amadeus]

Saul wasn't a part of Christ's Church--which was indwelt corporately as well as each individual Christian was and is. The evidence of being indwelt by the Holy Spirit is the Fruit of the Spirit. In OT times, faith produced obedience. The fact that Saul was disobedient points to his lack of faith. He seems to have been pretty carnal. Apparently, there was something within Saul that made him resist the Lord's ministry to him.

No, Saul was not, but God has never changed. He is and never has been a respecter of persons and that is clearly expressed in both the OT and the NT. Both the OT and the NT are filled with parables or types & shadows of the reality of God.

Men of the OT were not different in the end when it came to the judgment of God from the men in NT. The judgment of God on one as to the other has always been fair and in accord with these words spoken by Jesus:

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48

 

[tzcho2]

If you'd noticed a post of mine...you would have seen that I said to Willie, or maybe to Naomi .... "I sometimes forget to qualify my statement with rapture as taught..."
Obviously at the very end..there will be rapture and we see Him face to face...

That is your interpretation & belief which is up to you, but i don't think its accurate to say that it is "as taught by the Bible" concerning the rapture, & certainly Paul was not teaching this was going to happen at the "very end" of the world. So do you believe it will happen after the second coming of the Lord Jesus? I see a pretrib rapture & I'm originally coming from a denomination that never believed in it --period, it was a foreign concept. We shall see. I also had a dream about it prior to being saved when I had no frame of reference for it.

 

[Enoch111]

Saul wasn't a part of Christ's Church

Indeed, he [king Saul] was not even one of the OT saints. And Saul has nothing to do with the Church or the Rapture. How he came into this discussion is baffling.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

When answering the question of his disciples concerning the sign of his second presence and the conclusion of the system of things, Jesus mentioned a “great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.” (Mt 24:3, 21) As a comparison of Matthew 24:15-22 with Luke 21:20-24 reveals, this had initial reference to a tribulation to come upon Jerusalem. The fulfillment came in 70 C.E., when the city was besieged by the Roman armies under General Titus. This resulted in severe famine conditions and much loss of life. The Jewish historian Josephus relates that 1,100,000 Jews died or were killed, whereas 97,000 survived and were taken into captivity. The temple was completely destroyed. Contrary to the wish of the Roman commander Titus, Roman soldiers set the temple itself on fire. According to Josephus, this took place in the same month and on the same day that the Babylonians had burned the former temple on this site. (The Jewish War, VI, 249-270 [iv, 5-8], 420 [ix, 3]; 2Ki 25:8, 9) The temple destroyed by the Romans has never been rebuilt. Such a “great tribulation” has not occurred again or been repeated upon Jerusalem. Nevertheless, Biblical evidence indicates that the tribulation upon Jerusalem in 70 C.E. pointed forward to a far greater tribulation, one affecting all nations.

Jesus continued his prophecy by describing events that would occur during the centuries after Jerusalem’s destruction. (Mt 24:23-28; Mr 13:21-23) Then, at Matthew 24:29, he added that “immediately after the tribulation of those days,” there would be fear-inspiring celestial phenomena. Mark 13:24, 25 says that these phenomena would take place “in those days, after that tribulation.” (See also Lu 21:25, 26.) To what “tribulation” did Jesus there refer?

Some Bible commentators have reasoned that it was the tribulation that came upon Jerusalem in 70 C.E., though they also realized that the events described thereafter evidently would take place at a time that, from a human standpoint, was then distant. They reasoned that the expression “immediately after” conveyed God’s perspective of the time involved or that the certainty of what was to occur was being expressed by language that placed the events immediately before the reader.

However, since the prophecy at Matthew 24:4-22 (also Mr 13:5-20 and Lu 21:8-24a) clearly has a dual fulfillment, might the “tribulation” referred to at Matthew 24:29 and Mark 13:24 be the “tribulation” during the second and final fulfillment of what was foretold at Matthew 24:21 and Mark 13:19? Viewed in the light of the Bible as a whole, this seems most likely. Do the terms used in the Greek text allow for such a view? Definitely. When Matthew 24:29 refers to “those days” and when Mark 13:24 mentions “those days” and “that tribulation,” the Greek grammar does allow for such an understanding. It seems that Jesus’ prophecy is saying that after the outbreak of the coming global tribulation, there will be striking phenomena (as represented by sun and moon being darkened, stars falling, and powers of heaven being shaken) as well as fulfillment of “the sign of the Son of man.”

About three decades after Jerusalem’s destruction, the apostle John, with reference to a great crowd of persons from all nations, tribes, and peoples, was told: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation.” (Re 7:13, 14) The fact that a great crowd ‘comes out of the great tribulation’ shows that they survive it. This is confirmed by a similar expression at Acts 7:9, 10: “God was with [Joseph], and he delivered him out of all his tribulations.” Joseph’s being delivered out of all his tribulations meant not only that he was enabled to endure them but also that he survived the afflictions he experienced.

It is noteworthy that the apostle Paul referred to the execution of God’s judgment upon the ungodly as tribulation. He wrote: “This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you, but, to you who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus.” (2Th 1:6-8) The book of Revelation shows that “Babylon the Great” and “the wild beast” have brought tribulation upon God’s holy ones. (Re 13:3-10; 17:5, 6) It therefore logically follows that the tribulation to come upon “Babylon the Great” and “the wild beast” is included in the “great tribulation.”—Re 18:20; 19:11-21.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

About three decades after Jerusalem’s destruction, the apostle John, with reference to a great crowd of persons from all nations, tribes, and peoples, was told: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation.” (Re 7:13, 14) The fact that a great crowd ‘comes out of the great tribulation’ shows that they survive it.

I think that if you will read the Revelation chapter 7 passage carefully, you will see that the people you are speaking of are in heaven and they did NOT survive the great tribulation.

 

[Waiting on him]

When answering the question of his disciples concerning the sign of his second presence and the conclusion of the system of things, Jesus mentioned a “great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.” (Mt 24:3, 21) As a comparison of Matthew 24:15-22 with Luke 21:20-24 reveals, this had initial reference to a tribulation to come upon Jerusalem. The fulfillment came in 70 C.E., when the city was besieged by the Roman armies under General Titus. This resulted in severe famine conditions and much loss of life. The Jewish historian Josephus relates that 1,100,000 Jews died or were killed, whereas 97,000 survived and were taken into captivity. The temple was completely destroyed. Contrary to the wish of the Roman commander Titus, Roman soldiers set the temple itself on fire. According to Josephus, this took place in the same month and on the same day that the Babylonians had burned the former temple on this site. (The Jewish War, VI, 249-270 [iv, 5-8], 420 [ix, 3]; 2Ki 25:8, 9) The temple destroyed by the Romans has never been rebuilt. Such a “great tribulation” has not occurred again or been repeated upon Jerusalem. Nevertheless, Biblical evidence indicates that the tribulation upon Jerusalem in 70 C.E. pointed forward to a far greater tribulation, one affecting all nations.

Jesus continued his prophecy by describing events that would occur during the centuries after Jerusalem’s destruction. (Mt 24:23-28; Mr 13:21-23) Then, at Matthew 24:29, he added that “immediately after the tribulation of those days,” there would be fear-inspiring celestial phenomena. Mark 13:24, 25 says that these phenomena would take place “in those days, after that tribulation.” (See also Lu 21:25, 26.) To what “tribulation” did Jesus there refer?

Some Bible commentators have reasoned that it was the tribulation that came upon Jerusalem in 70 C.E., though they also realized that the events described thereafter evidently would take place at a time that, from a human standpoint, was then distant. They reasoned that the expression “immediately after” conveyed God’s perspective of the time involved or that the certainty of what was to occur was being expressed by language that placed the events immediately before the reader.

However, since the prophecy at Matthew 24:4-22 (also Mr 13:5-20 and Lu 21:8-24a) clearly has a dual fulfillment, might the “tribulation” referred to at Matthew 24:29 and Mark 13:24 be the “tribulation” during the second and final fulfillment of what was foretold at Matthew 24:21 and Mark 13:19? Viewed in the light of the Bible as a whole, this seems most likely. Do the terms used in the Greek text allow for such a view? Definitely. When Matthew 24:29 refers to “those days” and when Mark 13:24 mentions “those days” and “that tribulation,” the Greek grammar does allow for such an understanding. It seems that Jesus’ prophecy is saying that after the outbreak of the coming global tribulation, there will be striking phenomena (as represented by sun and moon being darkened, stars falling, and powers of heaven being shaken) as well as fulfillment of “the sign of the Son of man.”

About three decades after Jerusalem’s destruction, the apostle John, with reference to a great crowd of persons from all nations, tribes, and peoples, was told: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation.” (Re 7:13, 14) The fact that a great crowd ‘comes out of the great tribulation’ shows that they survive it. This is confirmed by a similar expression at Acts 7:9, 10: “God was with [Joseph], and he delivered him out of all his tribulations.” Joseph’s being delivered out of all his tribulations meant not only that he was enabled to endure them but also that he survived the afflictions he experienced.

It is noteworthy that the apostle Paul referred to the execution of God’s judgment upon the ungodly as tribulation. He wrote: “This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you, but, to you who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus.” (2Th 1:6-8) The book of Revelation shows that “Babylon the Great” and “the wild beast” have brought tribulation upon God’s holy ones. (Re 13:3-10; 17:5, 6) It therefore logically follows that the tribulation to come upon “Babylon the Great” and “the wild beast” is included in the “great tribulation.”—Re 18:20; 19:11-21.

Hi Barney, the only thing about this whole rapture thing that’s never made any sense at all is everyone always stating Great tribulation is Got taking vengeance on his enemies( as you stated those who persecute). Ok this in my opinion narrows Gods vengeance to a generation of men women children as understood, over the course of maybe 3-7 years. So what about all the persecuters prior to this age? Makes no sense. Why this one generation? What makes them a focal point?

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Indeed, he [king Saul] was not even one of the OT saints. And Saul has nothing to do with the Church or the Rapture. How he came into this discussion is baffling.

I believe it was Amadeus who brought him into the discussion.