Reason for The Crusades explained

[Matthias]

“Before the second Christian millennium began, the Just War criteria had faced the test of Holy Roman Empire under Charlemagne and the onset of the perpetual Christian-Muslim conflict. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) revisited the topic of warfare and built upon Augustine’s principles to address his times of increased world conflict. He approached four major points of inquiry ...

The second major question Aquinas addresses concerns clerical participation in war. Were bishops, priests, and monks allowed to engage in battle, if they were willing to fulfill all other obligations? To this enquiry Aquinas spoke emphatically against their fighting. Aquinas believed the ministry was incapable with shedding the shedding of blood. He noted:

’Now warlike pursuits are altogether incompatible with the duties of a bishop and a cleric, for two reasons. The first reason is a general one, because, to wit, warlike pursuits are full of unrest, so that they hinder the mind very much from the contemplation of Divine things, the praise of God, and prayers for the people, which belong to the duties of a cleric. … The second reason is a special one, because, to wit, all the clerical Orders are directed to the ministry of the altar, on which the Passion of Christ is represented sacramentally. Wherefore it is unbecoming for them to slay or shed blood, and it is more fitting that they should be ready to shed their own blood for Christ, so as to imitate in deed what they portray in their ministry.’”

(Christian Jihad, p. 223)

@Wrangler @Armour of God @NayborBear

You‘re critical of me, a cleric, for not “being armed, ready to kill.” Aquinas would rebuke you for your attitude toward those in ministry.

I believe in the priesthood of all believers. That appears to be a foreign concept to you.

Think about what Aquinas says concerning why clerics are not to wage war on enemies. On the basis of passages of scripture such as 1 Peter 2:5-9, I extend and apply that reasoning to all who belong to Messiah Jesus.

 

[Matthias]

There in denial. Scripture says God loves justice. Among humans, common criminals are brought to justice.

This is in contrast to uncommon criminals, aka Enemies of the State. A righteous people bring justice to their enemies. And there are many stories in Scripture of God doing this through us humans.

Another thing they are in denial of is bringing justice to enemies is aka a just war. They call it all evil, what the good guys and what the bad guys to; a 3rd denial being all that is necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.

“As Atkinson notes, Augustine and Aquinas’s classic guidelines for just war can be summarized:

...

8. The good consequences to be expected from going to war must outweigh the evil incurred. …”

(Christian Jihad, p. 224,225)

@Wrangler @Armour of God @NayborBear

They concede that war incurs evil. The Crusades were a failure and the crusaders committed atrocities / great evil.

Does the slaughter of Muslims, Jews, and Christians outweigh the negative consequences?

You deny that there were any negative consequences in the face of negative consequences. See the Christian sources marshaled against you in this thread that do not.

 

[Matthias]

“Augustine noted in Contra Faustum that the believer must live within the boundaries of nonretaliation, which demand a passive posture. Enlisted into warfare, the Christian must hasten to seek a non-violent response first, and in last resort, enlist the sword.”

(Christian Jihad, p. 225)

@Wrangler @Armour of God @NayborBear

The authors documented many examples where the crusaders violated Augustine’s teaching - and could have cited many, many more. You call for Augustine’s Just War teaching but you don’t live the teaching, and you turn a blind eye to violations of it.

As for “passive posture,“ that’s a phrase that doesn’t describe any of you. It also doesn’t describe pacifism; for, as I’ve pointed out to you on numerous occasions, pacifism isn’t passive.

 

[Matthias]

“Still, Augustine’s view of anthropology is clearly evident at this point. In his view, no war can ever be completely justified, since humanity is fallen. Conversely, Augustine believed the death of a pagan can never be fully justified if all of humanity, however fallen, is still in the imago Dei.

Therefore, Augustine arrives at a breach. Warfare is indiscriminate by design, and the innocent, no matter how careful the warrior, will die. Is there a possibility of immunity for noncombatants? Augustine struggles at this point. Even if the motives for the war are good …, the expected good consequences outweigh the evils …, and violence is directed only toward those in arms …, the innocent and unarmed will suffer consequent horrors of war.

Therefore, Augustine leaves the soldier in a dynamic tension, between the vindication of justice and the nature of crusading militarism. The very people supposedly defended by bellum justum become victims of the conflict to secure peace.”

(Christian Jihad, pp. 225-226)

@Wrangler @Armour of God @NayborBear

Poor Augustine. But don’t worry about him. Pope Urban II (and successors) said it’s okay. They kept what they liked and countenanced what he didn’t. You aren’t following Augustine. You’re following Urban (and others).

 

[Matthias]

“Appendix B Comparison of the Speeches of Pope Urban II 1095) and Usamah Bin Ladin (1998)”

(Christian Jihad, pp. 228-232)

@Wrangler @Armour of God @NayborBear

I’m not going to quote the comparisons. I’ll simply say here that the authors nailed it. Look at the comparison yourself sometime.

All of that evil could have been, would have been, avoided if both the crusaders and the Muslims had listened to, believed, and obeyed the teaching of Jesus and the apostles.

You’re on the path that leads to destruction, and calling others to join you. There’s still time for you to choose the path that leads to the life of the age to come, and call for others to join you on that path.

 

[NayborBear]

and the Muslims had listened to, believed, and obeyed the teaching of Jesus and the apostles.

 

[Matthias]

You think it’s funny that the Muslims haven’t listened to, believed, and obeyed the teaching of Jesus and the apostles. Will @Wrangler and @Armour of God?

The crusaders would have killed them even if they had; just like they killed Christians who did.

 

[Anchorite]

 

[NayborBear]

You think it’s funny that the Muslims haven’t listened to, believed, and obeyed the teaching of Jesus and the apostles.

The crusaders would have killed them if they had; just like they killed other Christians.

No? I find it quite funny that YOU believe they would!
Muslims? And it really doesn't matter of which "sect" they are. ARE going to take over the world! Either through "attrition", meaning they'll just be like the "Camel and the Arab?" By FORCE or Terrorism?
Or? More than likely BOTH! As the "peaceful" sect of Muslims, WILL bend their knee to the violent sect of Muslim!
Unless they're STOPPED!

 

[Matthias]

No? I find it quite funny that YOU believe they would!

The Great Commission. Muslims are being successfully evangelized. @Wrangler @Armour of God

Muslims? And it really doesn't matter of which "sect" they are. ARE going to take over the world! Either through "attrition", meaning they'll just be like the "Camel and the Arab?" By FORCE or Terrorism?
Or? More than likely BOTH! As the "peaceful" sect of Muslims, WILL bend their knee to the violent sect of Muslim!
Unless they're STOPPED!

You have neither the interest nor the ability to evangelize them. Why aren’t you out there killing them?

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus did not say, “Peter strike with more precision.” He said, “Peter, put away thy sword.”

This is classic over-spiritualization, only considering part of Scripture. Jesus did not say say to “Peter, should I flip over this table?” No, he violently flipped over the table based on his own volition, showing us the way In how to deal with outrages.

 

[Matthias]

This is classic over-spiritualization, only considering part of Scripture. Jesus did not say say to “Peter, should I flip over this table?” No, he violently flipped over the table based on his own volition, showing us the way In how to deal with outrages.

Open your eyes. Your table has been flipped.

 

[Triumph1300]

Muslims? And it really doesn't matter of which "sect" they are. ARE going to take over the world! Either through "attrition", meaning they'll just be like the "Camel and the Arab?" By FORCE or Terrorism?
Or? More than likely BOTH! As the "peaceful" sect of Muslims, WILL bend their knee to the violent sect of Muslim!
Unless they're STOPPED!

Not true.
That's not what Bible Prophesy declares..
Christ returns and will rule the world.

Time to read the end of the book.

 

[Justified]

No? I find it quite funny that YOU believe they would!
Muslims? And it really doesn't matter of which "sect" they are. ARE going to take over the world! Either through "attrition", meaning they'll just be like the "Camel and the Arab?" By FORCE or Terrorism?
Or? More than likely BOTH! As the "peaceful" sect of Muslims, WILL bend their knee to the violent sect of Muslim!
Unless they're STOPPED!

So, your reasoning on the matter is based on fear and lack of trust in the sovereignty of God and his promises in Scripture.

 

[Justified]

This is classic over-spiritualization, only considering part of Scripture. Jesus did not say say to “Peter, should I flip over this table?” No, he violently flipped over the table based on his own volition, showing us the way In how to deal with outrages.

Yet, no one else has ever come remotely close to Jesus, the sinless King of kings and Lord of lords, who is going to judge the world. Not to mention that was towards the religious authorities who were sanctioning worldly behaviour in the house of God. Jesus would certainly be flipping the tables of all that is Word of Faith, NAR, and MAGA, with their false teachings, false prophecies, taking the name of God in vain, and bringing Christ's name into disrepute by using it only as a means to power and material gain.

There are other verses that guide the believer's behaviour towards others. Using Jesus as an example to support violence towards Muslims is an atrocious misuse of Scripture.

 

[Anchorite]

 

[Matthias]

“Jews have a knee-jerk, defensive reaction to the gospel. The ‘New’ Testament has been badly misused over the past two thousand years, and this misuse has led to events like the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the terrible anti-Semitism of the twentieth century throughout Europe. To most Jews the good news of the Christian gospel has not been good. In fact, it has been bad news. History has shown us that the way the gospel was taught meant that we were being asked to convert, forced to convert, forced to leave our homes, beaten for being ‘Christ-killers,’ or killed for clinging to our covenantal relationship with God.”

(Rabbi David Zaslow, Jesus: First-Century Rabbi, p. xii)

@Wrangler @Armour of God @NayborBear

 

[NayborBear]

You have neither the interest nor the ability to evangelize them.

YOU?.....Are QUITE correct there Geeves!
BECAUSE? I'm 1 of these guys!:
Ezekiel 13:
20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:

1 Corinthians 12:
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. (not according to YOU though......and not JUST you!)
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath "God(NOT Jesus!) set the members EVERY ONE of THEM(like myself AND others), AS IT HATH PLEASED HIM.

Truth be told? It actually HURTS from the disappointment, and frustration from the constant and relentless rejectings!
And here you say you don't treat God the Father like "Chopped Liver!"

 

[NayborBear]

So, your reasoning on the matter is based on fear and lack of trust in the sovereignty of God and his promises in Scripture.

A god who is ALL love, ALL grace, ALL mercy, NO sovereignty, NO justice, NO holiness, and NO wrath?....... IS an IDOL! —R.C. Sproul.

 

[Matthias]

YOU?.....Are QUITE correct there Geeves!

Certainly I am.

Why aren’t you out there stopping the Muslims with your sword?

@Wrangler @Armour of God also aren’t out there stopping the Muslims with their swords.