Reasons why you are very unwise to trust your church’s doctrines

[This Vale Of Tears]

RANDOR knows better than to laugh at this ...
unless he knows that you are way beyond able to understand what I am referring to!

He could have said:
The church was (and is today) supposed to be a total replica/duplicate of the NT church! ... Hello!

But, then he would have been mimicking me!
Razbeerishlee? ... Bulgarian for: Dost thou understandeth what I am saying?

So no list? No guidebook? Then how do you know my church isn't a "spirit filled and spirit led" church? Even going by the standard of the method which the early church practiced doesn't clear anything up. The way the ancient Christians practiced is very much like Catholic Mass and Orthodox services today, centered around the Eucharist in a very ceremonial fashion. Does that mean that my church is more "spirit filled and spirit led" than yours? Oh, yeah. That's right. You don't go to church.

And RANDOR was probably laughing because he sees your arbitrary guidelines as ridiculous as I see them.

 

[John Zain]

And RANDOR was probably laughing because he sees your arbitrary guidelines as ridiculous as I see them.

No, because (if I remember correctly) RANDOR knows much more about God's Spirit than you do.

We know about God's Spirit ... and you know about "the doctrines of men".
HUGE difference ... maybe that's why he capitalizes his name. lol

And I bid you a fond adieu!

P.S. Do you know Angelica, the Super Mod?
I suggest you seek her out and have a private converstaion with her.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

No, because (if I remember correctly) RANDOR knows much more about God's Spirit than you do.

We know about God's Spirit ... and you know about "the doctrines of men".
HUGE difference ... maybe that's why he capitalizes his name. lol

And I bid you a fond adieu!

P.S. Do you know Angelica, the Super Mod?
I suggest you seek her out and have a private converstaion with her.

Wow, John. that's a pretty arrogant thing for you to claim about RANDOR, but I'm getting used to such arrogance from you.

And I'm getting a lot of "doctrines of men" right from your own posts. I don't even have to look very far.

And that last part, is that some kind of threat? Angelica can get ahold of me if there's anything she needs to discuss, she doesn't need you to speak for her. Can you discuss the issues without claiming special favor with the moderators and can you keep them out of the discussion altogether? If not, your adieu is probably the best course of action.

In any event, I'll go a head and report this post just so we can keep everything on the level.

 

[RANDOR]

I have no problem with being funny or laughing Randor. I have a problem with self righteous people.

WOW!!!!! you sure are right about that............Good post.

 

[StanJ]

So no list? No guidebook? Then how do you know my church isn't a "spirit filled and spirit led" church? Even going by the standard of the method which the early church practiced doesn't clear anything up. The way the ancient Christians practiced is very much like Catholic Mass and Orthodox services today, centered around the Eucharist in a very ceremonial fashion. Does that mean that my church is more "spirit filled and spirit led" than yours? Oh, yeah. That's right. You don't go to church.

And RANDOR was probably laughing because he sees your arbitrary guidelines as ridiculous as I see them.

Do you practise the gifts and manifestat5ions shown in 1 Cor 14 in your assembly Tears?

 

[John Zain]

Do you practise the gifts and manifestat5ions shown in 1 Cor 14 in your assembly Tears?

And may I add, "Why not begin with 1 Cor 12 and go forward?"
The Lord never did away with any of this; it was supposed to be part of every church.

If it had been, the whole world would have been evangelized many hundreds of years ago
... as soon as they had ships big enough to travel everywhere!

But Satan and man got together and put the big kaboshola on the whole of God's plan.
As soon as the EOC was formed, and the RCC split off, 'twas game over, folks!
(Only some of the little faithful guys continued to carry the Torch ...
... you should read "The Torch of the Testimony" by John W. Kennedy.)

Man's free will shall not be denied ... Let's see, what verse was that again?

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Do you practise the gifts and manifestat5ions shown in 1 Cor 14 in your assembly Tears?

We see Jesus in physical form with our own eyes and partake of his body and blood. Somehow all the sideshows that engage the rest of you pale by comparison.

 

[shturt678]

Let's try to stick to the Greek Jack, as the NT was never written in Hebrew. Hell is where dead unbelievers are now. AFTER the great judgement, they will be thrown into the lake of fire, NOT back into hell/hades. Rev 20:14

Thank you for your response again!

Like ol' RANDOR said awhile back, "it's all Greek to me"?

Thank you again, ie, appreciate you and your words.

 

[John Zain]

We see Jesus in physical form with our own eyes and partake of his body and blood.
Somehow all the sideshows that engage the rest of you pale by comparison.

If 'twas true, you would be correct!
Butski, "Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light." (2 Cor 11:14)
Butski, not to us! ... We ain't seein' no fake apparitions, we ain't seein' no apparitions period.

 

[StanJ]

We see Jesus in physical form with our own eyes and partake of his body and blood. Somehow all the sideshows that engage the rest of you pale by comparison.

I wasn't asking about transubstantiation Tears, I was asking IF you practice the gifts and manifestations shown in 1 Cor 14?

If 'twas true, you would be correct!
Butski, "Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light." (2 Cor 11:14)
Butski, not to us! ... We ain't seein' no fake apparitions, we ain't seein' no apparitions period.

Sorry, that is NOT what the scripture says.
2 Cor 11:14
And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

 

[Tex]

Though I've read entire books dedicated to the principle you espouse here, I do admire how you express it in brevity. Very well said.

Thank you very much! I'm about as catholic as a protestant can be =)

Is it my fault that you've never been to a Spirit-filled and Spirit-led church?
I advise you to find one ... as there are a few here and there!
The intellect has absolutely nothing to do with the spiritual.
Proof: God can reveal spiritual truth to the least of us.
In fact, most believers are below average humans (1 Cor 1:26-29).

My message must have not come across well. I will be very blunt, but do try not to confuse my blunt statement with rudeness. Here it goes...

There is no such thing as the Charasmatic movement. No one has spoken in tongues. There is no such thing as a "spirit-led" church. Regardless of how informal, there is always a pastor who shepards the flock.

And the intellect absolutely must deal with the spiritual. The intellect is a part of the soul. I'm pretty sure most of us would call the soul part of the spiritual. The spiritual truth you're refering to comes to people because they have souls which have the ability to understand higher things.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Thank you very much! I'm about as catholic as a protestant can be =)


My message must have not come across well. I will be very blunt, but do try not to confuse my blunt statement with rudeness. Here it goes...

There is no such thing as the Charasmatic movement. No one has spoken in tongues. There is no such thing as a "spirit-led" church. Regardless of how informal, there is always a pastor who shepards the flock.

And the intellect absolutely must deal with the spiritual. The intellect is a part of the soul. I'm pretty sure most of us would call the soul part of the spiritual. The spiritual truth you're refering to comes to people because they have souls which have the ability to understand higher things.

Again, very perceptive. This game of religious one upmanship and "I'm more spiritual than thou" is repugnant, fleshly, and the mark of an immature Christian. It's usually college age students who do this, kids who haven't learned humility and how precious a quiet prayer-closet faith can be. The disciples of Jesus did this kind of thing, "Which one of us is going to sit at his right hand?" but then they matured, dispensed with childish ambitions, and learned that the greatest in the kingdom is a servant, as Jesus taught.

Now in this thread I've been told my church isn't spirit led, doesn't "exercise the gifts", and that the Eucharist is really Satan in disguise. I've seen an expected amount of snarky condescension because in my experience, these people get truly nasty when you don't go along with their program. Utterly absent in their haughty disdain for that Old Time Religion is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control, the real fruit of the Spirit they claim to be full of. I can only pray that time and experience will teach them the true meaning of humble godliness for which there is no substitute.

 

[StanJ]

My message must have not come across well. I will be very blunt, but do try not to confuse my blunt statement with rudeness. Here it goes...

There is no such thing as the Charasmatic movement. No one has spoken in tongues. There is no such thing as a "spirit-led" church. Regardless of how informal, there is always a pastor who shepards the flock.

And the intellect absolutely must deal with the spiritual. The intellect is a part of the soul. I'm pretty sure most of us would call the soul part of the spiritual. The spiritual truth you're refering to comes to people because they have souls which have the ability to understand higher things.

There is and has definitely been a Charismatic movement, and it was IN the RCC. Millions of people have spoken in the "new" tongues Jesus foretold of in Mark 16:17 and Acts 2:4
There is only ONE shepherd, Jesus. Pastors are NOT shepherds.

Yes, the spirit is subject to the prophet, but that does not mean the prophet should allow his spirit to be quenched or over ridden by his mind or rational. Faith is required in order to follow the Holy Spirit's leading.

 

[John Zain]

I wasn't asking about transubstantiation Tears, I was asking IF you practice the gifts and manifestations shown in 1 Cor 14?

Sorry, that is NOT what the scripture says.
2 Cor 11:14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

She has NO idea what you're talking about ... she actually thinks she goes to a real Christian church.
There's more to real Christianity than being pro-Trinity, anti-abortion, anti-homosexuality, etc.
Real Christianity is NOT "according to the commandments and the doctrines of men" (Col 2:22).

KJV and NKJV and ??? ... transforms

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

She has NO idea what you're talking about ... she actually thinks she goes to a real Christian church.
There's more to real Christianity than being pro-Trinity, anti-abortion, anti-homosexuality, etc.
Real Christianity does NOT follow any of "the doctrines of men".

KJV and NKJV and ??? ... transforms

John, you can't even get my gender right, much less actually understand what I'm saying.

Oh, and as you admitted earlier, you don't go to church at all. Your hypocrisy is astounding!

Maybe you should start. Submit to earthly authority as God commands and maybe you'll learn some humility in the process. Just saying.

 

[Nomad]

Pastors are NOT shepherds.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

The Greek word for "pastor" is "poimen." It means "shepherd."

ποιμήν

poimēn

Thayer Definition:
1) a herdsman, especially a shepherd
1a) in the parable, he to whose care and control others have committed themselves, and whose precepts they follow
2) metaphorically
2a) the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church
2a1) of the overseers of the Christian assemblies
2a2) of kings and princes

Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: of uncertain affinity
Citing in TDNT: 6:485, 901

 

[shturt678]

I wasn't asking about transubstantiation Tears, I was asking IF you practice the gifts and manifestations shown in 1 Cor 14?

Sorry, that is NOT what the scripture says.
2 Cor 11:14
And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

Thank you for caring again!

Let's move away from the Text, more to the Context ruling the Text, ie, IICor.11:14, "Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light." No physical king of stuff of course, however moral deception, correct? Viz. also v.15, "transform themselves."

Old same o same o Jack

 

[StanJ]

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

The Greek word for "pastor" is "poimen." It means "shepherd."

ποιμήν
poimēn
Thayer Definition:
1) a herdsman, especially a shepherd
1a) in the parable, he to whose care and control others have committed themselves, and whose precepts they follow
2) metaphorically
2a) the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church
2a1) of the overseers of the Christian assemblies
2a2) of kings and princes
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: of uncertain affinity
Citing in TDNT: 6:485, 901

Hook, line and sinker Nomad.

So you figure that out of the 5 offices or ministries that Jesus gave to the church, according to Paul here, one was metaphorical and the others were all actual? Where is the role of a pastor taught in the NT? Do you figure Paul forgot about pastors in 1 Cor 12:28?
If the pastor is a gift as Paul stated in v8, how exactly does it work, being a metaphorical gift?

Thank you for caring again!

Let's move away from the Text, more to the Context ruling the Text, ie, IICor.11:14, "Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light." No physical king of stuff of course, however moral deception, correct? Viz. also v.15, "transform themselves."

Old same o same o Jack

My point was the word is NOT 'transforms' Jack. He's not a changeling, more a chameleon.

 

[Nomad]

Where is the role of a pastor taught in the NT?

1Ti 3:1 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.
1Ti 3:2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
1Ti 3:3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.
1Ti 3:4 He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive,
1Ti 3:5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church?
1Ti 3:6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil.
1Ti 3:7 Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.

1Ti 5:17 Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching.
1Ti 5:18 For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain," and, "The laborer deserves his wages."

I'm going to preempt your next objection and give you a little hint here. The words "presbuteros," "episcopos" and "poimen" are interchangeable terms and designate the same office or task. Oh and one more thing. Every congregation should have more than one "elder," "overseer" or "pastor/shepherd." The NT knows nothing of congregations that are lead by a one man band.

Act 14:23 And when they had appointed elders for them in every church, with prayer and fasting they committed them to the Lord in whom they had believed.

 

[StanJ]

1Ti 3:1 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.
1Ti 3:2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
1Ti 3:3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.
1Ti 3:4 He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive,
1Ti 3:5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church?
1Ti 3:6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil.
1Ti 3:7 Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.

1Ti 5:17 Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching.
1Ti 5:18 For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain," and, "The laborer deserves his wages."

I'm going to preempt your next objection and give you a little hint here. The words "presbuteros," "episcopos" and "poimen" are interchangeable terms and designate the same office or task. Oh and one more thing. Every congregation should have more than one "elder," "overseer" or "pastor/shepherd." The NT knows nothing of congregations that are lead by a one man band.

Act 14:23 And when they had appointed elders for them in every church, with prayer and fasting they committed them to the Lord in whom they had believed.

You're doing better...you answered 1 of 4 questions, incorrectly, but at least you addressed one of them.

Nothing about pastor and they are NOT interchangeable like you assert. As pastor was used in a metaphorical sense, how could it be interchangeable with other distinct LITERAL offices? When you figure that out you may be able to properly exegete what Paul was talking about.
Eph 4:11 is not about ONLY leaders in a local assembly. It is about the gifts God gave the BoC. Shepherd does NOT have a different connotation in the scriptures, even when used of Jesus. Either Jesus and Paul were being redundant, or there is more to this than 'shepherd'. The NT refers to Jesus in this title throughout. It wasn't redundant, nor was it meant to refer to taking Christ's place in the church.
The first 3 are offices, and last two are gifts. Offices are specific, gifts are given to whoever the Holy Spirit sees fit. 1 Cor 12:4