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Receiving The Revelation 16:15 Scripture

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by veteran, Apr 14, 2012.

  1. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    There is no scriptural witness that the lord will return to the Mt of Olives. That conclusion can only be reached based on an assumption, i.e., by reading it into the text of Acts 1:11, which only states the manner in which he will return, and says nothing about the location of his return. Also the first 5 verses of Zechariah 14 are definitely not about the lord's return. Everything in that pericope except the last sentence of Zechariah 14:5 can be documented as having occurred in the past.
     
  2. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    That's where you allow the evil spirits to deceive even you, for there is no communication with the 'dead'. But occultists, necromancers, witches, and sorcerers, think there is.


    I didn't realize the false basis of your ghost conclusion until now. Sounds like you've been dabbling in the Mysticism of the Jews, for in their mystic system (taken from ancient paganism), they believe in talking with the 'dead'.

    Isa 8:19
    19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
    (KJV)

    That's gross deception, for the Zechariah 14 Scripture DEFINITELY has not yet occurred!

    And it IS... about Christ's return upon the Mount of Olives on the "day of the Lord", AS... WRITTEN THERE!


    Zech 14:1-9
    1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
    2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
    3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when He fought in the day of battle.
    4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
    5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.
    6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
    7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
    8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
    9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and His name one.
    (KJV)
     
  3. avoice

    avoice Member

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    LOL your joking right no one can be that blind :lol: :D let me use a very simple translation for you
    [sup]10 [/sup]As they strained to see him rising into heaven, two white-robed men suddenly stood among them. [sup]11 [/sup]“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why are you standing here staring into heaven? Jesus has been taken from you into heaven, but someday he will return from heaven in the same way you saw him go!”

    . [sup]4 [/sup]On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem. And the Mount of Olives will split apart, making a wide valley running from east to west. Half the mountain will move toward the north and half toward the south.

    Amazing they say the same thing a search of scripture will show you its the mt of Olives we are talking about here.
    When is it you assume this has happened when Christ was in the flesh ...Dont think you can prove that ... After he comes we are in the millieum ...So I doubt people are going be going into captivity ... So what day is this ? Oh yeah the Lords Day
     
  4. Saint

    Saint New Member

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    If you study the issue I think you will find that Yeshua returns to Bozarh to rescue the Jewish remnant will flee Jerusalem and run south because the armies of the Anti-Messiah are in the north in Meggido.

    Draw near, O nations, to hear, and give attention, O peoples! Let the earth hear, and all that fills it; the world, and all that comes from it. For the LORD is enraged against all the nations, and furious against all their host; he has devoted them to destruction, has given them over for slaughter. Their slain shall be cast out, and the stench of their corpses shall rise; the mountains shall flow with their blood. All the host of heaven shall rot away, and the skies roll up like a scroll. All their host shall fall, as leaves fall from the vine, like leaves falling from the fig tree. For my sword has drunk its fill in the heavens; behold, it descends for judgment upon Edom, upon the people I have devoted to destruction. The LORD has a sword; it is sated with blood; it is gorged with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams. For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah, a great slaughter in the land of Edom. Wild oxen shall fall with them, and young steers with the mighty bulls. Their land shall drink its fill of blood, and their soil shall be gorged with fat. For the LORD has a day of vengeance, a year of recompense for the cause of Zion. And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch, and her soil into sulfur; her land shall become burning pitch. Night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it forever and ever.
    (Isa 34:1-10 ESV)


    Who is this who comes from Edom, in crimsoned garments from Bozrah, he who is splendid in his apparel, marching in the greatness of his strength? "It is I, speaking in righteousness, mighty to save." Why is your apparel red, and your garments like his who treads in the winepress? "I have trodden the winepress alone, and from the peoples no one was with me; I trod them in my anger and trampled them in my wrath; their lifeblood spattered on my garments, and stained all my apparel. For the day of vengeance was in my heart, and my year of redemption had come.
    (Isa 63:1-4 ESV)


    I think that the elect at the end of this age see the gentile armies gathering in the Valley of Armageddon and in fact heed the warning of Luke and flee into Edom (modern day Jordan) and find refuge in either the old city of Bozrah or more likely in Petra. Bozrah is an Old Testament city in Edom whose name translates as sheep pen. The city that closely resembles a sheep pen in Southern Jordan is the ancient Roman city called Petra. A rock fortress that is highly defendable with the surrounding mountains.

    Isaiah 33:16-17 "He will dwell on high; His place of defense will be the fortress of rocks; Bread will be given him, His water will be sure. Your eyes will see the King in His beauty; They will see the land that is very far off." The LORD will provide for the remnant just as He did for the Israelites during the Exodus from Egypt. A clear passage of the remnants gathering as prophesied by Micah.Micah 2:12-13 "I will surely assemble all of you, O Jacob, I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together (in Bozrah) like sheep of the fold, Like a flock in the midst of their pasture; They shall make a loud noise because of so many people. The one who breaks open will come up before them; They will break out, Pass through the gate, And go out by it; Their king will pass before them, With the LORD at their head."

    In short this is how I see the scenario developing:

    1. At the close of this age all Gentile nations gather in the Valley of Jezreel near the Mountain of Meggido.

    2. The Jewish remnant will flee Jerusalem and run south because the armies of the Anti-Messiah are in the north in Meggido.

    3. They will flee the land of Israel and somehow end up in Southern Jordan (Edom) in the city of Petra or ancient Bozrah.

    4. Out of desperation the Jewish remnant will call upon the Messiah while in Petra or Bozrah. They will say; "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD." All of Israel will be Saved (Romans 11).

    5. The Messiah will return with the great sacrifice of the Gentile armies in Bozrah. Bozrah will be made into a total burning wasteland through out the millennial kingdom.

    6. The Sword of the Lord will smite the Gentile Armies until there is blood up to the horses neck for 200 miles back to Jerusalem.

    7. The movement will be northward to Jerusalem where He will make the victory assent to the Mount of Olives.

    8. There will be a gathering of all surviving Gentiles where the Messiah will divide them according to their helping Jesus' brethren the Jews. The pro-Semitic sheep gentiles will be allowed into the Kingdom and the anti-Semitic goat gentiles go into everlasting punishment.

    9. The Davidic throne will be established in Jerusalem and the earth will be renovated for the Messianic Kingdom that will last one thousand years.

    This is quite brief and there is much to consider but please read and study before you start picking it apart based upon your current teachings.

    This is all new to me am well and I am still trying to fit my head around what I'm seeing in Isaiah regarding the Messiah and the Sheep Pen of Bozrah where Messiah says he will "surely assemble all of you, O Jacob, I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together (in Bozrah) like sheep of the fold."

    In Yeshua Messiah,

    Bob
     
  5. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    You need to read the study linked to in my signature regarding Azal. Then, if you have an honest heart, you will be able to see who is actually blind.
     
  6. JLB

    JLB Member

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    What part of Zechariah 14:1-9 are you convinced is not as it reads here?


    1 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. 6 It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish. 7 It shall be one day Which is known to the Lord-- Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light. 8 And in that day it shall be That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, Half of them toward the eastern sea And half of them toward the western sea; In both summer and winter it shall occur. 9 And the Lord shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be-- "The Lord is one," And His name one.


    Do you believe that the above "bolded" scripture references are "as it reads" or do you believe that they are mistranslations.

    Do you believe And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two has already occured?


    Awaiting your response. Thanks, JLB
     
  7. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    No.1 actually says A day, not THE day. The lack of a definite article means that this verse can't be used to prove this verse (and what follows) refers to the lord's return.
    The last part of no. 4 is not right.
    I believe the last sentence of no. 5 actually belongs with verse 6.

    Yes. Jesus has already stood on the Mt of Olives, which has already "split". In this context rend or tear apart is a better translation of the Hebrew/Greek words than split is. The western slope of the Mount of Olives has torn apart from from its eastern half and blocked up the valley, just as Zechariah predicted.
     
  8. JLB

    JLB Member

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    My Bible says the Day of The Lord.

    In verse 5, the reference to - Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.


    What does that mean to you? Do you believe that has happened as well?

    Verse 9, And the Lord shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be-- "The Lord is one," And His name one.

    Verse 14, 12 And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.

    Verse 16, And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

    Do you believe this has already taken as well?


    I find it interesting that you would refer to verse 5 as already being fulfilled -

    5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.


    Thanks, JLB
     
  9. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    Translations that say THE day of the lord are wrong. The Hebrew says A day of YHWH.

    No, I do not believe the part of verse 5 you mentioned has occurred. It could possibly be interpreted to mean Jesus and his disciples during his first advent, but I am disinclined to follow that. When one realizes what verses 4-5 actually say, it becomes apparent that the part of verse 5 you mentioned does not fit at all with what precedes it, but does fit very well with what proceeds it in verse 6.
     
  10. JLB

    JLB Member

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    Here is the heart of this so called "study" that calls The Zechariah Prophecy a "false" prophecy.

    The Popular Fable vis-à-vis Apostolic Teaching

    This lack of a credible witness supporting the popular fable is problematic because GOD mandates that everything be established by two or three witnesses. Basically, the only witness the popular fable has is itself. But not only is there nothing of substance to support it, apostolic doctrine actually opposes it. The apostle Paul said that the Messiah will gather his people away from the earth in clouds to meet him in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:16), which directly contradicts the teaching that the Messiah’s people will be gathered to him standing upon the Mount of Olives, i.e., on earth. Since these two doctrines contradict each other, both cannot be true. In other words, one is a lie. It is not necessary at this point to refute the contrived doctrine that maintains the church is gathered in clouds first, and then Jews are gathered on earth afterwards at the Messiah’s third coming, because this study uncovers facts, that by themselves completely discredit a crucial component of that teaching.

    This study of yours does nothing but twist and pervert the scriptures.

    By what authoroty do you decide one part of verse 5 has been fulfilled, yet another part remeins unfulfilled?

    5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.


    I reject this so call "study" of yours called
    Deciphering Zechariah 14:5


    An indepth analysis of Zechariah 14:5
    Azal: A Longtime Mystery Rediscovered


    as being False!



    Thanks, JLB
     
  11. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Isa 63:1
    1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
    (KJV)

    The KJV reads differently, because Christ does not return literally from Bozrah, but with dyed garments because of His judgment to occur upon metaphorical Bozrah, i.e., the people of Idumea.



    Ezek 36:5
    5 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Surely in the fire of My jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed My land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey.
    (KJV)

    Per that, the lands of Israel are to be appointed in possession by Idumeans when God brings His judgment on the last day of this world.



    Ezek 38:15-16
    15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:
    16 And thou shalt come up against My people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against My land, that the heathen may know Me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
    (KJV)

    There's that same sacrifice event which is spoken of in those Isaiah Scriptures on the day of vengeance.






    Isa 33:16-17
    16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
    17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.
    (KJV)


    That Isaiah 33:16-17 passage is about God as our Rock of defense, not the literal rocks of Mount Seir (Petra).





    Those "pro-Semitic" ideas are just AS BAD as Anti-Semiticism, and proves how many Jews have fallen away from The LORD, and instead listen to the "crept in unawares" of false prophets among them, i.e., the scribes and Pharisees. There is no such thing as a "pro-Semitic" idea involving Christ's Salvation. Instead, that "pro-Semitic" idea is a political idea of the deceived Jews.
     
  12. Saint

    Saint New Member

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    One thing that I’ve grown to expect from you Veteran is disagreement…with everything it seems :rolleyes:

    In Yeshua Messiah,

    Bob
     
    avoice likes this.
  13. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Keep pushing that "pro-Semitic" junk and you'll keep getting more disagreement from me. That's a political phrase and you well know it. It has nothing to do with Christ's Salvation and gathering of His Church of both believing israelite and believing Gentile.

    What it does have to do with is drumming up false support for the Jew's idea of gathering, which actually is a 'fake' gathering which you have outlined in your above post.


    Matt 24:28
    28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
    (KJV)

    Luke 17:33-37
    33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
    34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
    35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
    (KJV)
     
  14. Saint

    Saint New Member

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    I see...what was it that Yeshua told the Jews veteran? Oh yes I remember now: "For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord."

    Remember Yeshua was talking primarily to the tribe of Judah when He made this statement.

    In Yeshua Messiah,

    Bob
     
  15. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    No, it is NOT primarily to or about the tribe of Judah, it's to those of the "synagogue of Satan" bowing in worship to Him at the feet of His elect during His thousand years reign. Jesus wasn't saying that to all the people of Israel, but specifically to the unbelieving hypocrite scribes and Pharisees...

    Matt 23:29-39
    29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
    30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
    31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
    32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
    33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
    34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
    35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
    36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
    37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
    38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
    39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see Me henceforth, till ye shall say, "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."
    (KJV)


    Luke 19:28-39
    28 And when He had thus spoken, He went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.
    29 And it came to pass, when He was come nigh to Bethphage and Bethany, at the mount called the mount of Olives, He sent two of His disciples,
    30 Saying, Go ye into the village over against you; in the which at your entering ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither.
    31 And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him.
    32 And they that were sent went their way, and found even as He had said unto them.
    33 And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt?
    34 And they said, The Lord hath need of him.
    35 And they brought him to Jesus: and they cast their garments upon the colt, and they set Jesus thereon.
    36 And as He went, they spread their clothes in the way.
    37 And when He was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen;
    38 Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.
    39 And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto Him, "Master, rebuke Thy disciples."
    (KJV)

    Just as Jesus came to Jerualem from the East via the Mount of Olives at His first coming, and the Pharisees rejected Him as Messiah then, so likewise it will be with the children of those Pharisees at His second coming, the main difference being they will bow to Him as LORD, but they won't willingly accept Him as The Saviour.
     
  16. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, HeRoseFromTheDead.

    He needs to do no such thing. Your "study" is based in nonsense. Which is the stronger point in this context? Is it the fact that Yechezk'el says that the valley extends to "Aatseel?" OR, is it the fact that Yechezk'el says that the mountain splits from east to west and that the two halves separate north and south, forming a new valley? Actually, it is the latter of the two that has the most "meat" in the argument - the most detail.

    It doesn't matter that Jewish archaeologists "discovered" "Aatseel" south of Jerusalem; as I've said before, the word has referred to both a place and a person AND the word can also have its literal meaning, as well! The word simply means "to join," and the implication is simply that this newly-constructed valley will join with the valley containing the Dead Sea.

    I'm not denying that they've found a place that they believe was named that; I'm just saying that it has NOTHING to do with this passage of Scripture!

    ***

    Shalom, veteran.

    Get your facts in the right order first, please. Which of the two passages would you suppose came first? His diatribe against the P'rushiym (Pharisees) or His "triumphal entry?" That's an easy thing to determine, by the way. All one has to do is look back a few chapters in Matthew to chapter 21 when Mattityahu records Yeshua`s "triumphal entry."

    Thus, His disciples said, "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH" in Luke 19 (and Matt. 21) and THEN Yeshua` bawled out the P'rushiym in chapter 23. Furthermore, if you pay close attention to verses 37-39 of Matthew 23, you would see that Yeshua` was speaking to ALL of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem), not just the P'rushiym! And, His prophecy here has yet to come true.
     
  17. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Thinking to be saved in the flesh by fleeing into the deserts around Jerusalem is something that also happened in 70 A.D. with the Roman destruction of Jerusalem, according to the Jewish historian Josephus. Josephus said there were false messiah's in the desert in that time which deceived many of the Jews.

    That's what the fabrications among some Jews today saying our Lord Jesus will not return to the Mount of Olives like how Acts 1 and Zech.14 reveals is really about.


    Jesus warned us about it too...

    Matt 24:23-26
    23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
    24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
    25 Behold, I have told you before.
    26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, he is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, he is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
    (KJV)


    The following reveals that what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4:16-17 about being "caught up" by Christ at His coming will be real...

    Luke 21:27-28
    27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
    28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
    (KJV)

    That "redemption" also includes what Paul taught about the redemption of our bodies, the change to the "spiritual body" he taught of in 1 Cor.15. That's how... we will be gathered to Christ Jesus on that day. He won't have to walk the deserts looking for us, nor come visit our towns to gather us. His angels will gather us as per Mark 13:27.
     
  18. avoice

    avoice Member

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    Hey veteran do you understand the reaping ? after the reaping in Chapter 15 there is no flesh ...you are just making up things to make your wrong point. You are intentionally saying what isnt said to confuse those not studied enough to reconize what you are doing. Your ego is beyond measure.

    Christ returns at 7th trump first thing he does is send out his angels to gather the Elect ..his feet touch down on the Mt of Olives it splits into ...
    There is nothing new under the sun ,,
    the fact there has been a quake there before on the Mt ...does not fulfill Zec.14 that just ignorace.

    The next time we see Christ is Mt Zion Reaping the Multitude.
    Some he reaps some an angel reaps into wrath ...WHICH HASNT OCCURED YET.
    Where does God say he pours all 6 vials out at once ? Why did he bother to number them ... he could have just written it as chapter ... You add to the word ..you use a verse out of context to mislead its parenthetical in nature.

    .Ever notice antichrist rides on a White horse I would be very careful teaching
    What isnt said did you ever stop to think his last words made clear how he would return to the Mt of Olives exactly so we would not misunderstand and be looking for a rider on a white horse . Dont bother giving your interpation

    Jesus Ascends to Heaven

    [sup]9 [/sup]Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. [sup]10 [/sup]And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, [sup]11 [/sup]who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

    You see a horse here ? Do you see an army of Saints?
    What importance does one place on the very last words spoken of earthly ministry of Jesus ?
    No answer necessary I'm not interested in what you have to say. Ill just assume you are calling me the same names you always do
    :) I just pray few listen to you
     
  19. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    My authority is based in indisputable fact; truth is its own authority. If it's not the truth, dispute the facts. If you can't dispute the facts, why don't you believe the truth?

    By what authority do you decide that one part of verse 5 cannot be separated from the other part? The original writings were written without verse, paragraph, or chapter designations. Who are you to say what Zechariah intended? When the evidence clearly shows that one version of scripture is true and another false, it behooves us to follow what is true. Clinging to man's tradition in fear and a closed mind (as you are doing) will be to your detriment.

    Typically, people who make statements like this are too afraid to directly address the facts themselves. Blanket characterizations are so much easier for cowards.

    I realize that facts don't mean anything to a closed mind.
     
  20. JLB

    JLB Member

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    You mistake someone opinion's [fact], from the truth of scripture.

    The teaching is false based on the truth of scripture.

    4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. 6 It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish.


    A clear reference to the return of Jesus in Matthew 24:29 -

    29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven...

    This event is yet to happen !

    Out of the mouth of two or more witness' your theory/fact is false. Case closed!

    If you want to argue with scripture go right ahead, I'm done.

    Thanks, JLB
     
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