Redemption ?

[ScottA]

Where does Scripture say that Mary was "spiritually dead" until Pentecost?

Romans 3:10
As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one

Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

 

[tabletalk]

She is not exempt. And she never said that of herself. In the song of Mary she says: '"My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in GOD MY SAVIOR" Savior, operative word. She is not co-remptrix. However, there are some mysteries concerning her which have been misrepresented by the RCC and misinterpretations concerning her by Protestants. If you want to debate the HOLINESS of Mary I will go there with you. Where do you want to begin?

If she was sinless, she wouldn't need a Savior.
She was blessed among women, not above women.
You, and the Catholic Church and Orthodox churches, dishonor the Virgin Mary by your false teachings about her; making her a super sinless saint.

 

[EndTimeWine]

If she was sinless, she wouldn't need a Savior.
She was blessed among women, not above women.
You, and the Catholic Church and Orthodox churches, dishonor the Virgin Mary by your false teachings about her; making her a super sinless saint.

Since you put me in this lot, what have I said about Mary that is untrue?

 

[EndTimeWine]

Since you put me in this lot, what have I said about Mary that is untrue?

Also , Blessed AMONG women means all women . Do you have a problem with this statement? As for above, among all women does put her at the top of the heap.This in regard to finding favor with the Lord, and giving the Most High Honor of conceiving, birthing, raising and communicating with Christ on a very intimate level.

 

[twinc]

You left out some of that Romans9:20 verse. Never claimed to be God. If you deny the obvious, not my problem . SELF EXPLANATORY! Wasn't talking about His Bride. I was talking about MARY. I never said she wasn't born as you or I in a natural way. Do you have something you want to share with the class? Did you read my threads or something? If so, what is the problem you have concerning Mary? Have you been conditioned by denomination's interpretations and misrepresentations that NOW you can not hear TRUTH? Remember the dragon has always been before the WOMAN to devour her Son. Did you ever think, this is the hour for all things to be straight?

 

[twinc]

all nations, except Protestants, shall call me blessed - in spite of this all nations do call her blessed - notice here all does not seem to mean all but all at all have sinned does but should not as all would include Jesus imho - twinc

 

[EndTimeWine]

all nations, except Protestants, shall call me blessed - in spite of this all nations do call her blessed - notice here all does not seem to mean all but all at all have sinned does but should not as all would include Jesus imho - twinc

In her statement "from generation to generation all people shall call me blessed" What generations is she talking about? She is talking about the generations of BELIEVERS, for surely there ARE MANY none believers through generations. She is speaking of the GENERATIONS of the faithful in Christ. The Protestants think they are TRUE believers, they are not.

They can not be because they reject a basic tenet of the faith, VENERATION=deep, respectful love, adoration. Not only for Mary but for the apostles as well. They like to say veneration is NOT in scripture, which is untrue. I agree therefore, with you twinc. God Bless!

 

[BreadOfLife]

Romans 3:10
As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one

Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

THANK YOU for showing everybody your Scriptural ignorance . . .

Ummmmm, first of all, in these verses, Paul is referencing Psalm 14:1-3, which says:
Psalm 14:1-3
The fool says in his heart,“There is no God.”
Their deeds are loathsome and corrupt;
not one does what is good.
The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if even one is wise, if even one seeks God.
All have gone astray;
all alike are perverse.
Not one does what is good, not even one.

TWO verses later, it says that God is in the company of the "RIGHTEOUS".
In Rom. 3 - Paul is using inclusive language - similar to somebody saying that "The WHOLE town came to see the parade."

In Matt. 2:3, we read where Herod was disturbed by the news of a new King being born.
It says:
Matt. 2:3
When King Herod heard this, he was disturbed, and ALL Jerusalem with him.

Really?? ALL Jerusalem was upset??
EVERY person, including the children were ALL disturbed?

YOUR problem is that you don't understand context or how to properly exegete Scripture.

 

[BreadOfLife]

If she was sinless, she wouldn't need a Savior.
She was blessed among women, not above women.
You, and the Catholic Church and Orthodox churches, dishonor the Virgin Mary by your false teachings about her; making her a super sinless saint.

She wouldn't have needed a Savior??
HOW is that?

She was saved - but not like your average Christian because she was saved BEFORE she was born.
Christians are saved by being pulled OUT of the mud of sin.
Mary was saved be being prevented from falling into the mud in the first place.

Mary is described as "Kecharitomene" - a title that is given ONLY to her.
NOBODY else is describes in ALL of Scripture as being "Kecharitomene."

 

[BreadOfLife]

Our first carnal father died when he ate of the forbidden tree as were all of his offspring. This did not change until Jesus made a Way where there had been no way for all of those centuries.

Mary was full of grace as the scripture indicates, but she was still dead as Joseph the son of Jacob was dead as David the son of Jesse was dead although God in their time and at times gave each of them grace. The Holy Spirit moved on people for God's purposes prior to the Holy Spirit being poured out onto whosoever as per Acts chapter 2. All of those people whose carnal lives occurred prior to that including Mary the mother of Jesus were spiritually dead. I know that you will disagree on this, but that is the way it is. Mary was given a special gift prior to the upper room, but it was not the Life that came only through Jesus. She needed to go to the upper room with the 120.

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Gen 2:17

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" Rom 5:12

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

And NONE of these verses refute Luke 1:28, which refers to Mary as, "Kecharitomene."
Not ONE.

ALL through Scripture, God has made exceptions (Enoch, Elijah, for example). Yet, for anti-Catholics - when it comes to Mary the mother of Jesus, He is completely unable to make an exception.

You have no real interest in understanding truth. Your love is not for truth but rather for proving that your church is right and that those who disagree are wrong. Therefore you receive rather a delusion.

I cannot give you eyes to see. They come only through the Holy Spirit. Ask of God sincerely and He will show you.

In other words, Amadeus, you can't furnish us with ANY Scriptural evidence to support your false claims.

 

[amadeus]

And NONE of these verses refute Luke 1:28, which refers to Mary as, "Kecharitomene."
Not ONE.

And that one word my friend does not mean all that you have wanted it to mean. The scripture provided here by myself and others [for example @ScottA ]have shown that. To throw those aside you use your definitions and those of your church as if they were also inspired by God.

ALL through Scripture, God has made exceptions (Enoch, Elijah, for example). Yet, for anti-Catholics - when it comes to Mary the mother of Jesus, He is completely unable to make an exception.

They are not the exceptions you apparently you believe that they are. God does not change His Word.

In other words, Amadeus, you can't furnish us with ANY Scriptural evidence to support your false claims.

No matter what other verses I and others might insert here you would apparently remain as you are, deluded. You believe what you do but without a love for the truth you will receive a delusion and walk with it. If you never open your heart to the possibility you and/or your church are wrong... you are limiting God. He is blocked by you as He was blocked by the Israelites in the OT:

"Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel." Psalm 78:41

 

[ScottA]

THANK YOU for showing everybody your Scriptural ignorance . . .

Ummmmm, first of all, in these verses, Paul is referencing Psalm 14:1-3, which says:
Psalm 14:1-3
The fool says in his heart,“There is no God.”
Their deeds are loathsome and corrupt;
not one does what is good.
The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if even one is wise, if even one seeks God.
All have gone astray;
all alike are perverse.
Not one does what is good, not even one.

TWO verses later, it says that God is in the company of the "RIGHTEOUS".
In Rom. 3 - Paul is using inclusive language - similar to somebody saying that "The WHOLE town came to see the parade."

In Matt. 2:3, we read where Herod was disturbed by the news of a new King being born.
It says:
Matt. 2:3
When King Herod heard this, he was disturbed, and ALL Jerusalem with him.

Really?? ALL Jerusalem was upset??
EVERY person, including the children were ALL disturbed?

YOUR problem is that you don't understand context or how to properly exegete Scripture.

I quote the scriptures. You find a way to dismiss them.

 

[EndTimeWine]

it is stated 'by His blood' we are redeemed but it is not clearly stated or understood where He got His human blood from - any comments - twinc

That is interesting. Medicine says concerning fetal blood exchange there is none, yet DNA is always passed on. ? I never looked at her as Co-Redemptrix.
I always saw her as our mother who rears Christ in our souls through the umbilical cord of veneration of her. I believed her role from the moment of her yes was to continually bring Christ to us. Not only in her earthly life but heavenly reign. I never believed she was immaculately conceived in her mothers womb but was made Immaculate when the Holy Spirit came upon her and the Power of the Most High overshadowed her. I always thought she was righteous as all other holy woman of scripture prior to this. I still believe it was only Christ's body who was wounded for our transgressions and His Blood the only blood shed. As for the sword that pierced Mary's heart of course a sword would pierce her heart, look at what she witnessed done to her Son. The mingling of being-which took place in Mary was not transfer of Mary's blood but purified DNA. A fetus developing from a woman's egg which has DNA does not receive blood but rather nutrients. The DNA passed on is naturally present in her egg when the egg travels to the uterus it attaches to the placenta where oxygen and nutrients are received by the baby. There is no blood from the mother transferred to the baby, the baby produces through the act of God's creation, his or her own blood. But As I said DNA is always exchanged.

This in no way diminishes her role. Knowledge is power. It is important to know this medical knowledge because Protestants LOVE to try and nail and discredit any veneration of Mary.

The placenta protects the mother and fetus. One of the placenta's jobs is to make sure blood from the mother and fetus never mixes. The placenta acts as an exchange surface between the mother and the fetus. Nutrients and oxygen are passed over by diffusion only.
Placenta - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



DNA is the carrier of our genetic information, and is passed down from generation to generation. All of the cells in our bodies, except red blood cells, contain a copy of our DNA. At conception, a person receives DNA from both the father and mother. ... The chromosome inherited from the father determines their gender.
Family Tree DNA - Understanding DNA


Hence is how we are all born with the stain of original sin. She was purposed for BEAUTY Romans9:20 =PERFECTION and was made that way instantly by the Holy Spirit. And her soul ever VIRGIN =pure unsoiled, BORN AGAIN! SHE FOREVER ABIDES IN CHRIST 1John3:1-10. She is a MEDIATOR not Co-redeemer. And as she is- we also are mediators, Christ between God the Father and we =believers, between the lost and Christ. God Bless.

Some more Virgin souls, these are the ones suggested by Mary and is the Mystery of the Wedding feast , suggested servants. Rev.14:1-7.

 

[BreadOfLife]

And that one word my friend does not mean all that you have wanted it to mean. The scripture provided here by myself and others [for example @ScottA ]have shown that. To throw those aside you use your definitions and those of your church as if they were also inspired by God.

WRONG.
Kecharitomene is the perfect passive participle, indicates a completed action with permanent result. It translates, “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.”:

This is not a "Catholic" definition of Kecharitomene - but one from Greek Scholarship.
In Blass and DeBrunner's, Greek Grammar of the New Testament (University of Chicago Press) - a SECULAR source, the definition is upheld.

The fact that YOU and ScottA disagree is irrelevant.

They are not the exceptions you apparently you believe that they are. God does not change His Word.

No matter what other verses I and others might insert here you would apparently remain as you are, deluded. You believe what you do but without a love for the truth you will receive a delusion and walk with it. If you never open your heart to the possibility you and/or your church are wrong... you are limiting God. He is blocked by you as He was blocked by the Israelites in the OT:

"Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel." Psalm 78:41

WRONG again.
God can and DOES make exceptions at His pleasure.

The author of Hebrews stated:
Heb 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment

Apparently, Enoch and Elijah missed that memo because they are recorded as NOT having died.
Furthermore, when Peter asked about John dying - Jesus told Peter flat out:
John 21:22
Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.”

You accuse ME of "limiting" God - and it is YOU who limit Him with your rejection of His Word.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I quote the scriptures. You find a way to dismiss them.

In other words - you DIDN'T do your homework before presenting your case.
You DIDN'T fully research and cross-reference the verses you falsely used in your sham of a case.

Next time - think about what you're going to post . . .

 

[ScottA]

In other words - you DIDN'T do your homework before presenting your case.
You DIDN'T fully research and cross-reference the verses you falsely used in your sham of a case.

Next time - think about what you're going to post . . .

Oh...you obviously didn't get the Word:

Luke 21:8-18
8 And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time has drawn near.’ Therefore do not go after them. 9 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately.”

10 Then He said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. 12 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake. 13 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.14 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 17 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake.18 But not a hair of your head shall be lost.

 

[amadeus]

@BreadOfLife

How many souls do you suppose you won today with your charity and your unmatched knowledge?

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing." I Cor 13:1-3

 

[EndTimeWine]

She wouldn't have needed a Savior??
HOW is that?

She was saved - but not like your average Christian because she was saved BEFORE she was born.
Christians are saved by being pulled OUT of the mud of sin.
Mary was saved be being prevented from falling into the mud in the first place.

Mary is described as "Kecharitomene" - a title that is given ONLY to her.
NOBODY else is describes in ALL of Scripture as being "Kecharitomene."

Here in lies the problem with the RCC. You assert things not founded on scripture, and it is By these adulteries you spawn apostate offspring. Where in scripture does it say MARY was WITHOUT original sin? Nowhere! Romans3:22-26 "the righteousness of God through faith in JESUS CHRIST for all who believe. For there is NO DISTINCTION; SINCE ALL HAVE SINNED and fall short of the glory of God, they are JUSTIFIED by HIS GRACE as a gift,

Let's stop there for a moment. What did the angel say to Mary? "Hail Mary full of Grace" by grace we are saved! "You have found favor with the Lord", this was a pronouncement of what was about to happen to her The Annuciation= to announce and cit what God was to purpose in Mary. Was Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit in her mother's womb? No!

Continuing Roman3:22-26 through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by HIS BLOOD, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in His divine forbearance he had passed OVER former sins; it was to prove at Present time that He justifies him who has faith in Jesus.

This would speak to your comment concerning Enoch and Elijah, they too were born with the stain of original sin. They were caught up to heaven because God in His divine forbearance passed over former sins. Elijah did return as John the baptist Matthew17:10-13. And Enoch is one the witnesses of Rev.10-11. St. John of course is the other.

If she was perfect, without sin she would have never said " My soul magnifies the Lord, and REJOICES IN GOD MY SAVIOR". Who is the Savior? Who is truly God and Man? The Holy Spirit perfected her just as John the baptist form his mother's womb had the Holy Spirit , which He received in the sixth month in his mother's womb at the visitation to Elisabeth. If a gold inlaid wooden ark can be made sacred to house the covenant how much more a Human vessel? Who is any one to question God Romans9:20 In genesis 3:15 we learn God would put enmity between the Woman and satan, between his seed=his knowledge and her seed= Christ. The enmity is the Holy Spirit. Now, when did Mary receive the Holy Spirit? At the Immaculate conception=spotlessly clean conception, and Incarnation of Christ. Hence is why she is the Immaculate Conception. All Dogmas must be supported by scripture. And as I said in my thread "Why Mary Is the Immaculate Conception as not taught by the RCC" My understanding of her saying this to Bernadette is the true one. Because it is supported by scripture and prophecy. God Bless!

 

[BreadOfLife]

Here in lies the problem with the RCC. You assert things not founded on scripture, and it is By these adulteries you spawn apostate offspring. Where in scripture does it say MARY was WITHOUT original sin? Nowhere! Romans3:22-26 "the righteousness of God through faith in JESUS CHRIST for all who believe. For there is NO DISTINCTION; SINCE ALL HAVE SINNED and fall short of the glory of God, they are JUSTIFIED by HIS GRACE as a gift,

Let's stop there for a moment. What did the angel say to Mary? "Hail Mary full of Grace" by grace we are saved! "You have found favor with the Lord", this was a pronouncement of what was about to happen to her The Annuciation= to announce and cit what God was to purpose in Mary. Was Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit in her mother's womb? No!

Continuing Roman3:22-26 through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by HIS BLOOD, to be received by faith. this was to show God's righteousness, because in His divine forbearance he had passed OVER former sins; it was to prove at Present time that He justifies him who has faith in Jesus.

This would speak to your comment concerning Enoch and Elijah, they too were born with the stain of original sin. They were caught up to heaven because God in His divine forbearance passed over former sins. Elijah did return as John the baptist Matthew17:10-13. And Enoch is one the witnesses of Rev.10-11. St. John of course is the other.

If she was perfect, without sin she would have never said " My soul magnifies the Lord, and REJOICES IN GOD MY SAVIOR". Who is the Savior? Who is truly God and Man? The Holy Spirit perfected her just as John the baptist form his mother's womb had the Holy Spirit , which He received in the sixth month in his mother's womb at the visitation to Elisabeth. If a gold inlaid wooden ark can be made sacred to house the covenant how much more a Human vessel? Who is any one to question God Romans9:20 In genesis 3:15 we learn God would put enmity between the Woman and satan, between his seed=his knowledge and her seed= Christ. The enmity is the Holy Spirit. Now, when did Mary receive the Holy Spirit? At the Immaculate conception=spotlessly clean conception, and Incarnation of Christ. Hence is why she is the Immaculate Conception. All Dogmas must be supported by scripture. And as I said in my thread "Why Mary Is the Immaculate Conception as not taught by the RCC" My understanding of her saying this to Bernadette is the true one. Because it is supported by scripture and prophecy. God Bless!

Apparently, you didn't R*E*A*D post #28, so here it is again for your edification.

First of all, in these verses (Rom. 3:10, 3:23), Paul is referencing Psalm 14:1-3, which says:
Psalm 14:1-3
The fool says in his heart,“There is no God.”
Their deeds are loathsome and corrupt;
not one does what is good.
The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if even one is wise, if even one seeks God.
All have gone astray;
all alike are perverse.
Not one does what is good, not even one.

TWO verses later, it says that God is in the company of the "RIGHTEOUS".
In Rom. 3 - Paul is using inclusive language - similar to somebody saying that "The WHOLE town came to see the parade."

In Matt. 2:3, we read where Herod was disturbed by the news of a new King being born.
It says:
Matt. 2:3
When King Herod heard this, he was disturbed, and ALL Jerusalem with him.

Really?? ALL Jerusalem was upset??
EVERY person, including the children were ALL disturbed?

YOU, like your friend ScottA don't know how to properly exegete Scripture.
You ALSO completely ignored post #34, where I explained Mary's sinlessness from Scripture - so here it is again:

Kecharitomene is the perfect passive participle, indicates a completed action with permanent result. It translates, “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.”

This is not a "Catholic" definition of Kecharitomene - but one from Greek Scholarship.
In Blass and DeBrunner's, Greek Grammar of the New Testament (University of Chicago Press) - a SECULAR source, the definition is upheld.

So, READ - then reply.

 

[BreadOfLife]

@BreadOfLife

How many souls do you suppose you won today with your charity and your unmatched knowledge?

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing." I Cor 13:1-3

I corrected a bunch of lies and cleared up some very strange interpretations of Scripture.
Beside - I don't "win" souls. the Holy Spirit does.