Redemption ?

[BreadOfLife]

Oh...you obviously didn't get the Word:

Luke 21:8-18
8 And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time has drawn near.’ Therefore do not go after them. 9 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately.”

10 Then He said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. 12 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake. 13 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.14 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 17 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake.18 But not a hair of your head shall be lost.

No - I get it.
YOU just don't like being publicly embarrassed for your Scriptural ignorance.

Like most anti-Catholics, you tried to use Rom. 3:10 and Rom. 3:23 without having done your homework to understand its proper context.

 

[amadeus]

I corrected a bunch of lies and cleared up some very strange interpretations of Scripture.
Beside - I don't "win" souls. the Holy Spirit does.

And you still don't understand what charity is nor how unimportant knowledge is in comparison. The verses I quoted are also in the Catholic Bibles

So then what do these words written by Solomon mean?

"The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise." Prov 11:30

 

[ScottA]

No - I get it.
YOU just don't like being publicly embarrassed for your Scriptural ignorance.

Like most anti-Catholics, you tried to use Rom. 3:10 and Rom. 3:23 without having done your homework to understand its proper context.

It is I who have stated the context to be this very moment. But you see not, nor do you understand.

 

[BreadOfLife]

And you still don't understand what charity is nor how unimportant knowledge is in comparison. The verses I quoted are also in the Catholic Bibles

So then what do these words written by Solomon mean?
"The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise." Prov 11:30

And I don't have a problem with the verses - just YOUR flawed interpretation of them.
In the end - it is the Holy Spirit and NOT us who "wins" the soul.

You think too much of yourself.

 

[BreadOfLife]

It is I who have state the context to be this very moment. But you see not, nor do you understand.

No - you missed the context of Romans 3. because you applied a wooden, literalist sense to it instead of what it was trying to relay to the reader.

Do infants sin?
Do the preborn sin?

 

[amadeus]

And I don't have a problem with the verses - just YOUR flawed interpretation of them.
In the end - it is the Holy Spirit and NOT us who "wins" the soul.

You think too much of yourself.

You won't give up even when there is no reason to pursue anything. Likely our understandings would be similar if not for the definitions. But... only God gives the increase.

Hey, I also am only living by faith until God finishes the work in me.

 

[ScottA]

No - you missed the context of Romans 3. because you applied a wooden, literalist sense to it instead of what it was trying to relay to the reader.

Do infants sin?
Do the preborn sin?

We were not talking about Romans 3. How is it that you do not know that the object of a parable is not the subject?

Go back and apply the subject (principle) to what you and I were discussing.

 

[BreadOfLife]

We were not taking about Romans 3. How is it that you do not know that the object of a parable is not the subject?

Go back and apply the subject (principle) to what you and I were discussing.

Wrong.

You used Romans 3 to support your false idea that Mary was "spiritually dead" util Pentecost.
I corrected you because you used those 2 verses out of their proper context.

Now, you're trying to imply that we were talking about something else.
Nice try . . .

 

[ScottA]

Wrong.

You used Romans 3 to support your false idea that Mary was "spiritually dead" util Pentecost.
I corrected you because you used those 2 verses out of their proper context.

Now, you're trying to imply that we were talking about something else.
Nice try . . .

No. The context is correct, and the something else is you trying (unsuccessfully) to shift the context to evade the reality of evidence against your position.

 

[FHII]

She was saved - but not like your average Christian because she was saved BEFORE she was born.

Sounds like predestination to me. Maybe John Cavin was right!

 

[EndTimeWine]

No. The context is correct, and the something else is you trying (unsuccessfully) to shift the context to evade the reality of evidence against your position.

Mary could not be spiritually dead when the LIVING WORD was with her. And, it was NOT a DEAD in spirit or flesh Mary who nursed and cared for the Lord. But the life nourishing Wisdom, which is apportioned to us according to our gifts Sirach1:9 - The Lord Himself created wisdom; He saw her and apportioned her, He poured her out upon All His works.

And since Wisdom is apportioned to us according to ones gift, if ones gift is the LIVING BREATHING WORD INCARNATE the fullness of life- would Mary's gift of WISDOM need to be in proportion to her gift? 1+1=2 it is this elementary. The Word of GOD the FULLNESS OF LIFE=fullness of WISDOM. Now in scripture we learn in Proverbs 3:18 Wisdom is a TREE OF LIFE and is referred to as SHE "She is a Tree of Life to those who lay hold of her; those who hold her fast are called happy." Man BEHOLD your MOTHER. Can Mary be the Mother of the Head and not the Body? Is She the Mother of our Lord?

 

[EndTimeWine]

If Jesus is the last Adam,1Corinthians 15:45 is Eve still the mother of all the living?

 

[FHII]

Really?? ALL Jerusalem was upset??
EVERY person, including the children were ALL disturbed?

I would think so... Did you not read what happened to all there children 2 years old and younger?

I certainly don't have all the answers to this, but we should look at the facts. The wise men didn't find Jesus on the night he was born. In fact, the text suggests they came when he was around 2 years old.

So Harod wasn't upset that day (or night). The whole episode took quite a while to develop. So we are looking at developments over a 2 1/2 year period.

So after Harod killed every male 2 year old and under.... Yea. I'd think all of Jerusalem was upset.

As for what Paul said and what he quoted in Psa 14. All ARE unrighteous and fall short. We are made Righteous by Jesus.

Psa 14:3 isn't referring to the fool in 14:1; its referring to the children of men in verse two (nice verse that excludes Jesus).

There may be times when the Bible speaks in these "inclusive terms" you speak of. I can't think of any off hand. Maybe in the dueterocanical books... I don't know. But I don't see that to be the case in any of these verses.

By the way... I don't think Mary was sinless, but I wouldn't say she was spiritually dead either.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I would think so... Did you not read what happened to all there children 2 years old and younger?

I certainly don't have all the answers to this, but we should look at the facts. The wise men didn't find Jesus on the night he was born. In fact, the text suggests they came when he was around 2 years old.

So Harod wasn't upset that day (or night). The whole episode took quite a while to develop. So we are looking at developments over a 2 1/2 year period.

So after Harod killed every male 2 year old and under.... Yea. I'd think all of Jerusalem was upset.

As for what Paul said and what he quoted in Psa 14. All ARE unrighteous and fall short. We are made Righteous by Jesus.

Psa 14:3 isn't referring to the fool in 14:1; its referring to the children of men in verse two (nice verse that excludes Jesus).

There may be times when the Bible speaks in these "inclusive terms" you speak of. I can't think of any off hand. Maybe in the dueterocanical books... I don't know. But I don't see that to be the case in any of these verses.

By the way... I don't think Mary was sinless, but I wouldn't say she was spiritually dead either.

Herod became upset BEFORE issuing the edict to kill anybody.

This verse uses inclusive language by saying that "ALL" Jerusalem was disturbed.
It is silly to propose that "ALL" in this verse means literally every single person.

Rom. 11:32 says that God has mercy on "ALL.”
Really?? He has mercy on Satan and His angels??

Matt. 3:5-6 says: “Then Jerusalem and ALL Judea and ALL the region about the Jordan were going out to him, and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins."
Really?? EVERY person in ALL of Judea went out to see Him?? ALL were Baptized

Matt. 4:24 says: “So his fame spread throughout ALL Syria, and they brought him ALL the sick, those afflicted with various diseases and pains, those oppressed by demons, epileptics, and paralytics, and he healed them.”
Really?? EVERY single person in ALL of Syria and ALL the sick people came out to see Him??

Luke 2:1 says: “In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that ALL the world should be registered.”
Really?? EVERY single person in the whole wide world?

You need to understand that Scripture sometimes generalizes and “ALL“ doesn’t always mean every individual.

 

[ScottA]

Mary could not be spiritually dead when the LIVING WORD was with her. And, it was NOT a DEAD in spirit or flesh Mary who nursed and cared for the Lord. But the life nourishing Wisdom, which is apportioned to us according to our gifts Sirach1:9 - The Lord Himself created wisdom; He saw her and apportioned her, He poured her out upon All His works.

And since Wisdom is apportioned to us according to ones gift, if ones gift is the LIVING BREATHING WORD INCARNATE the fullness of life- would Mary's gift of WISDOM need to be in proportion to her gift? 1+1=2 it is this elementary. The Word of GOD the FULLNESS OF LIFE=fullness of WISDOM. Now in scripture we learn in Proverbs 3:18 Wisdom is a TREE OF LIFE and is referred to as SHE "She is a Tree of Life to those who lay hold of her; those who hold her fast are called happy." Man BEHOLD your MOTHER. Can Mary be the Mother of the Head and not the Body? Is She the Mother of our Lord?

This is a doctrine of men's teaching.

It speaks against the creation in God's image of male and female, and makes Mary a devil: a women who would be a god. He made them male and female, and the women came out of the man...and not as you have described it.

Mary, is rather, a chosen vessel unto the Lord. Nor is it even correct to call her the mother of God, but rather the mother of a Son of man - who was not born the Son of God, but "became" a life-giving spirit. Nor was Mary "firstborn" of the spirit of God: meaning, dead in sin, because she had not yet been risen from the dead.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Sounds like predestination to me. Maybe John Cavin was right!

The Catholic Church doesn't teach that there is absolutely NO predestination. Some of the great servants of the Bible were predestined. Calvin went too far and claimed that ALL were predestined for either Heaven or Hell.

NOWHERE does Scripture even IMPLY this fallacy.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No. The context is correct, and the something else is you trying (unsuccessfully) to shift the context to evade the reality of evidence against your position.

There IS no "evidence" against my position.
You were wrong to use Romans 3 to show that every single person has sinned.

You ran from the question as to whether or not you believed that babies have sinned.
What about the unborn?? they're part of "ALL."
What about Jesus?? As a human being, He is ALSO part of "ALL."

 

[ScottA]

There IS no "evidence" against my position.
You were wrong to use Romans 3 to show that every single person has sinned.

You ran from the question as to whether or not you believed that babies have sinned.
What about the unborn?? they're part of "ALL."
What about Jesus?? As a human being, He is ALSO part of "ALL."

Okay...no wonder we are at odds. You do not know the truth and need a lesson:

All who are born of women are born of the fallen nature of Adam and Eve...even Jesus. If He were not, His death would have been no sacrifice.

 

[FHII]

Herod became upset BEFORE issuing the edict to kill anybody.

Well I agree Harod was a very unreasonable man... But I don't think he would be so unreasonable to get upset after giving the edict. I mean, even for an unreasonable man that's weird.

This verse uses inclusive language by saying that "ALL" Jerusalem was disturbed.
It is silly to propose that "ALL" in this verse means literally every single person.

Well there may have been one scallywag who didn't care... But after Harod got upset and did what he did... Id think that 99.44% were upset.

If you are looking at this as a minute by minute report, yes you are right. If you look at the overall picture i'd like to think all of Jerusalem was upset.

Rom. 11:32 says that God has mercy on "ALL.”
Really?? He has mercy on Satan and His angels??

You should check the context of that verse. The easiest thing to prove is that Satan wasn't included. He was talking about Jews and gentiles. Not angels, fallen angels or Satan. Deeper understanding shows that he wasn't speaking of all men. He was speaking of Israel.

Matt. 3:5-6 says: “Then Jerusalem and ALL Judea and ALL the region about the Jordan were going out to him, and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins."
Really?? EVERY person in ALL of Judea went out to see Him?? ALL were Baptized

He was speaking of regions, not people. People in all the regions of Jerusalem, Judea and the region of the Jordan river. Sometimes when the Bible speaks of Jerusalem and Judea it is speaking of people. Sometimes its speaking of regions... Geographical areas. This is one of those times its speaking of a geographical area.

Matt. 4:24 says: “So his fame spread throughout ALL Syria, and they brought him ALL the sick, those afflicted with various diseases and pains, those oppressed by demons, epileptics, and paralytics, and he healed them.”
Really?? EVERY single person in ALL of Syria and ALL the sick people came out to see Him??

Well what the verse says is slightly different from what you said. But... I will give you that one.

Luke 2:1 says: “In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that ALL the world should be registered.”
Really?? EVERY single person in the whole wide world?

All his [Caesar's] world. Yes. Every single one of them in his world? Absolutely. But yea... I will give you that one too.

But what you are doing is scowering the Bible to find a precedence to support your point. I am not against that but it doesn't always work. I never said the Bible never speaks in general or "inclusively". But just because in one point you may find "inclusive" language doesn't mean it applies to every situation.

Now what this has to do with anything we are discussing... I can't remember.

 

[EndTimeWine]

This is a doctrine of men's teaching.

It speaks against the creation in God's image of male and female, and makes Mary a devil: a women who would be a god. He made them male and female, and the women came out of the man...and not as you have described it.

Mary, is rather, a chosen vessel unto the Lord. Nor is it even correct to call her the mother of God, but rather the mother of a Son of man - who was not born the Son of God, but "became" a life-giving spirit. Nor was Mary "firstborn" of the spirit of God: meaning, dead in sin, because she had not yet been risen from the dead.

FALSE ! Use Scripture to disprove what I said. Wisdom is a creature meaning a created Spirit , therefore is NOT A god. God is NOT created. So now disprove what I said with scripture. I used scripture to support my claims, your turn. Also, 1Sirach is a prophecy, Proverbs also is speaking of wisdom as a she and Solomon also calls wisdom a she. Wisdom is referred to as SHE. Why? With scripture and brains explain?