Or: you can be a Protestant and not be a "yes man" to Martin Luther as the other Reformers did who certainly were Protestants. And get this: you can be a Protestant and think that your beliefs have roots deeper than a 16th-century man suffering from scrupulosity. Simple as that really, they aren't beholden to anyone but God.
Refuting soul sleep, aka dirt nap doctrine
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Or: you can be a Protestant and not be a "yes man" to Martin Luther as the other Reformers did who certainly were Protestants. And get this: you can be a Protestant and think that your beliefs have roots deeper than a 16th-century man suffering from scrupulosity. Simple as that really, they aren't beholden to anyone but God.
Since the metaphor of "sleep" was used for the saints who died, the mistaken assumption was made that souls and spirits sleep six feet under. However it is the corpse which gives the appearance of sleeping in the grave (initially). There are two regions for souls and spirits, and since we are talking about believers, they go to Heaven to be with the Lord immediately upon death (as did Stephen).
No, revelation says no one is in the lake of fire yet - those in hell now get cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Jesus taught us about the rich man in torments, in hell.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Shalom Aleichem
It occurs to me that some of the main problems with a lot of these verses is translation and misinterpretation.
e.g....Who is identified as "we"? Who are included in this identification?
Who are the "spirits"? Are "spirits" the same as "souls"?
Does such a place as "hell" really exist? or is the fire symbolic of absolute destruction?
Are "hades", "gehenna" and "the lake of fire" real places?
Are parable real stories?
How much ignorance is on display here?
Parables are vague. When Jesus taught about the rich man in hell, specific names are used- Lazarus, Abraham - hell is real or the Bible is a joke, you can’t believe a thing in it, throw it in the trash.
Martin Luther isn’t my substitute pope. He was wrong on all kinds of doctrine, and as an ex catholic priest, had a lot of Roman Catholic baggage, such as replacement theology.
John Calvin isn’t my substitute pope, either.
Maranatha
I’m a Christian and not a Protestant, anyway.
We are told to study the scriptures ourselves, and rightly divide the truth, not study Ellen G White approved unto god, or Martin Luther or John Calvin or whoever, approved unto God.
Yes, we see the souk leaving the body, here:
When Rachel was dying, her soul was departing.
Gen 35:18 And as her SOUL WAS DEPARTING (for she was dying), she called his name Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin.
Gen 35:19 So Rachel died, and she was buried on the way to Ephrath (that is, Bethlehem),
Where was her soul going as it departed her body?
Back to God:
Ecc 12:7 then man's dust will go back to the earth, returning to what it was, and the spirit will return to the God who gave it.
Shalom Aleichem
Where did Rachel’s soul go?
Genesis 35:18 And as HER SOUL WAS DEPARTING (for she was dying), she called his name Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin.
Gen 35:19 So Rachel died, and she was buried on the way to Ephrath (that is, Bethlehem),
Where was her soul going when it departed from her body?
Back to God:
Ecc 12:7 then man's dust will go back to the earth, returning to what it was, and the spirit will return to the God who gave it.
Genesis 35:18 And as HER SOUL WAS DEPARTING (for she was dying), she called his name Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin.
Gen 35:19 So Rachel died, and she was buried on the way to Ephrath (that is, Bethlehem),
Where was her soul going when it departed from her body?
Back to God:
Ecc 12:7 then man's dust will go back to the earth, returning to what it was, and the spirit will return to the God who gave it.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
That's OK....
One of the things I asked was...
"Who are the "spirits"? Are "spirits" the same as "souls"?
Its very important to understand that these two words have completely different meanings in scripture. Somewhere along the way Christendom blended these two words into one concept, when that could not be further from the truth. The soul and spirit are not interchangeable terms.
A "soul" in the Hebrew scriptures was a living, breathing creature.....both humans and animals. The original-language terms (Heb., neʹphesh [נֶפֶשׁ]; Gr., psy·kheʹ [ψυχή]) as used in the Bible show “soul” to be a person, an animal, or the life that a person or an animal enjoys. e.g when someone said "my soul" it was another way of saying myself or I.
"Old King Cole was a merry old soul"...its talking about the man himself, not something separate from him.
The Greek is also used in English terminology...."psychiatry" or "psychotic", refers to the conscious mind of a living person....not a dead one.
In the creation account, God made living "souls" (neʹphesh) to dwell in the oceans on the 5th creative day. The Jewish Tanakh translates neʹphesh as "creature" because it is a description of something that is not just alive, but breathing.
When God created the souls to dwell on land, he also included the humans in that terminology....Adam "became" a "living soul" (neʹphesh). (Genesis 2:7) He was not given one.
The word "spirit" has a variety of meanings.....The Greek pneuʹma (spirit) comes from pneʹo, meaning “breathe or blow,” and the Hebrew ruʹach (spirit) is believed to come from a root having the same meaning. Ruʹach and pneuʹma, then, basically mean “breath” but have extended meanings beyond that basic sense.
So the "spirit" or "breath of life" is what made Adam into a "living soul".
Souls are not immortal...they die. (Ezekiel 18:4)
From the Greek we get "pneumonia" pertaining to the lungs.....we have "pneumatic" tires, which are inflated with air, so we understand what these words mean from how we have adapted them into English. It was the church who confused them.
John 4:24 states ..."God is a Spirit [Pneuʹma].” IOW he is like the wind...invisible but one can see where he has been by what is observed or left behind. So depending upon how the word is used, we discern the meaning.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 then becomes clear...the body made from the dust, returns there, but the spirit that animated the body returns to God because he is the only one who can restore life (breath) in the resurrection. The teaching of an immortal soul makes the resurrection completely redundant, for the simple reason that you cannot resurrect someone who is not dead.
Jesus demonstrated this with his friend, Lazarus....
John 11:11-14...
"After saying these things, he said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.” 12 The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” 13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died."
Where did Jesus say Lazarus was? He was "sleeping" and Jesus was going to "awaken" him by restoring the breath of life that made him a "soul" again. Lazarus stepped out of his tomb wondering how on earth he got in there, wrapped up in grave clothes.
The logical question then is.....why did Jesus bring Lazarus back to life if he was only going to die again? If Lazarus was in a better place, then why bring him back to the trials of this life?
Do you know why?
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Who told you that? Where do we get two regions for souls to go? If you have no immortal souls, there is no need to make up places for them to go....they are all sleeping peacefully in their graves waiting for Jesus to wake them up.....both the good and the bad.
"Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." (John 5:28-29 ESV)
This refers to all the dead in hades/sheol...the grave.
Where does it say that Stephen's soul went to heaven to be with the Lord immediately?
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17...(ESV)
"But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."
What does Paul tell us here...?
The "coming of the Lord" is the time for the "first resurrection"...not before. Those who are "asleep" therefore were to sleep until then. Jesus was then going to command them with an Archangel's voice...and the dead in union with him (his elect) would "rise first". The elect are those chosen for positions in the Kingdom. (Revelation 20:6) These kings and priests will have earthly subjects. (Revelation 21:3-4)
Those of the elect still in the flesh when he returns, will be instantly transformed to "meet their Lord in the air"...with no need to "sleep" in death.
So I'm sorry but your immortal soul doctrine is nonsense. The dead sleep.....its all right there from the apostle Paul...argue with him.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Read the word "life" for "soul" here....her "LIFE" was departing.
Rachel was dying and when her spirit (breath) left her lungs, she expired just like all other humans do when they die.
Animals die the same death....as Solomon wrote at Ecclesiastes 3:19-20...
"For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return."
Some miracles Jesus performed that people might believe on Him....I think with Lazarus it was performed to show that His prayer and spoken Word has power over death....
With others it was the prayer of faith of those who believed on Him to heal...
John 11 gives much info to this.
John 11 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
¹ Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha.
…
⁴ When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.
⁵ Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.
⁶ When he had heard therefore that he was sick, he abode two days still in the same place where he was.
⁷ Then after that saith he to his disciples, Let us go into Judaea again.
…
¹¹ These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
¹² Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
¹³ Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
¹⁴ Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
¹⁵ And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.
…
¹⁷ Then when Jesus came, he found that he had lain in the grave four days already.
…
²³ Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
²⁴ Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
²⁵ Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
²⁶ And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
…
³² Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
³³ When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled,
³⁴ And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see.
³⁵ Jesus wept.
…
³⁷ And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died?
³⁸ Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.
³⁹ Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.
⁴⁰ Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
⁴¹ Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
⁴² And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
⁴³ And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
⁴⁴ And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.
⁴⁵ Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Sorry, not a big fan of the archaic English since I don't speak like that nor do I know anyone who does....so excuse me if I use some more modern English, that way there is no room for misunderstanding. That is, after all what translation is for.....to put the words of the Bible writers into our language.....correct?
So from the ESV I just wanted to highlight one statement of Jesus to Lazarus' sister....
"Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24 Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
What did Jesus refer to that Martha acknowledged?
Jewish expectation was nothing to do with immortal souls...because the ancient Jews had no such belief....later they adopted those beliefs from the pagan Greeks.....so when Jesus said to Martha, "your brother will rise", what was her response?
"I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day". What did she mean? What was "the resurrection" that she referred to and when was "the last day"?
When Jesus said "Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live."...again what did he mean? Did he mean that Lazarus would live on somewhere else? Is that what "the resurrection" meant to a Jew?
What do you think?
As far as soul....I believe soul is the mind and spirit is what lives eternal.
In these 2 scriptures I believe this differentiates the 2.⁸
“Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.”
— 3 John 1:2 (KJV)
“For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”
— Hebrews 4:12 (KJV)
In these 2 scriptures I believe this differentiates the 2.⁸
“Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.”
— 3 John 1:2 (KJV)
“For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”
— Hebrews 4:12 (KJV)
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
ESV..."Beloved, I pray that all may go well with you and that you may be in good health, as it goes well with your soul."
Again substitute the word "life" for "soul" because it means the same thing.
The soul is not affected by one's health if it is different from the body.
Only the body can have good and bad health.
ESV..."For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart."
Think about what this is saying.....if the soul and the spirit are one and the same entity, how does one divide them?
Saying that you "believe soul is the mind and spirit is what lives eternal", is not the same as showing what the scriptures are saying overall.
Since Jesus was Jewish, he would have taught from Jewish scripture....and nowhere in Jewish scripture will you find an immortal soul mentioned or even anything akin to it. It was the pagans who believed in such things because they practiced spiritism and necromancy. God's people were forbidden to practice such things.
A "necromancer" literally means “a diviner of the dead, one who attempts to foretell and control future events through communication with the dead.” But communication with the dead was against God's law....why? If these were merely dead relatives and friends, why would God say that this practice was detestable to him? (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)
It goes back to the garden of Eden and the first lie that the devil told......"you surely will not die" when God said that they surely would.
Belief in an immortal soul is merely a perpetuation of that first lie, basically saying that you don't really die.....so who wants you to believe it? Who has a vested interest in promoting it? Who was the liar? God or the devil?
It is this doctrine that has spawned many other God-dishonoring beliefs....like eternal torture hell fire....purgatory.....and the baptism of infants thought to go to hell if they were not sprinkled with water, making a mockery of baptism and its meaning.
I do not find the doctrine of immediate life after death in the Bible at all. The future life attained by the resurrection is nothing like that.
Our breath doesn’t return to God, sorry.
The whole council of scripture refutes soul sleep.
When Paul says our body is a home we live in until death, when we become absent from the body and be present with the Lord, it’s not our breath he’s talking about.
When Stephen looked into heaven as he was dying and said, Lord Jess, receive my SPIRIT, he didn’t mean to receive his breath.
When Jesus said to the Father, into your hands I commit my spirit, it wasn’t His breath that he meant.
The fact is at creation God had no body, but was and is an eternal spirit, thus to make man in His image can’t possibly mean our body, since He has none, thus He made us an eternal spirit and put us in a mortal flesh home, called our body - and spirits cannot be destroyed or made to be unconscious.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
I have shown you that the opposite is true. Your interpretation does not fit with what Jesus taught.
Paul was one of the elect as were all the apostles. Are you one of the elect Curtis? Will you be a king and a priest in heaven with Jesus...if so, who will be your subjects and for whom will you act as a priest?
Stephen had no belief in an immortal soul...his expression was uttered whilst receiving a vision of heaven just before his death. He knew that Jesus was the one authorized by God to perform all resurrections, so he entrusted his future life to his Lord.....the one he was looking at.
Of course he did...who was it that gave breath to his son as a human in the first place? He was to give up his life for mankind which involved dying as a human, the way all humans expire...they breathe their last breath.
That is your definition but not mine.....Being "made in God's image" is being endowed with God's moral qualities, which to a large extent is missing in the animal kingdom. Animals have no moral values and they do not worship God. Making us humans mortals, but with a spiritual capacity is what sets us apart from all other earthly creation.
He gave us those qualities for a reason...do you know why, and how they were to be used?
Our body and soul can be destroyed by God, as Jesus said...
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna"
A body without breath is dead. God cannot destroy a body without removing its breath. Gehenna is "the lake of fire"....a place called "the second death" because the first death is one from which God can resurrect us...the second death has no such option. What goes into Gehenna, never comes out.
"Destroyed" means what is says.
Refuting soul sleep, aka dirt nap doctrine
OP ^
Agree..
Living Souls, (in the body or out of the body), DO not SLEEP.
No souls have experienced A physical death.
"YET".
(Spiritual death, yes, ie separated from God)
Physically Dead Body's...ie dirt nap. Yes. Temporary...equated with Temporary SLEEP.
All body's shall be risen up, thus the "temporary sleep" reference concering "body's"....not souls.
How do we know?
Jesus' teaching; Luke 16: 19-31
Glory to God,
Taken
OP ^
Agree..
Living Souls, (in the body or out of the body), DO not SLEEP.
No souls have experienced A physical death.
"YET".
(Spiritual death, yes, ie separated from God)
Physically Dead Body's...ie dirt nap. Yes. Temporary...equated with Temporary SLEEP.
All body's shall be risen up, thus the "temporary sleep" reference concering "body's"....not souls.
How do we know?
Jesus' teaching; Luke 16: 19-31
Glory to God,
Taken
As a man thinketh so is he...
Life and death are in the power of the tongue...they who love it will eat its fruit...
Be not conformed to this world but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind..
Casting every thought down that exalts itself above the Word of God.
Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks..
Whatsoever things are true, pure, noble, lovely, right, admirable or if anything is excellent or praiseworthy think on these things.
The mind is carnal...is enmity against God....we have to be spiritual minded to know the mind of God.
Satan enters into our thoughts lying and deceiving us if we are not discerning those thoughts as coming from him.
My point in all this is the mind is the battlefield....it is where everything is birthed in us concerning our actions and reactions to life....it is where the will of man battles the will of God....it is where our free will exists...
Modern day medicine considers man as 3 separate designs to be treated as a whole...body, mind and spirit...if one is only treated and the other 2 are ill...it defeats the treatment of the one...
All 3 must be treated to obtain complete healing and wholeness.
So whatever you choose as your interpretation of soul how do you reconcile Hebrews 4:12 if it is the same as spirit?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Why this life? It this the one God created, or is it of the devil's making? Why the need for a battle in the first place?
Why are we required to "endure" this life "to the end"? (Matthew 24:13)
That is the first line of questions we need to answer. Once we know the why, then and only then will we see how God's solution operates in each one of us....how we create our own destiny just by our own choices.
I agree 100%....modern medicine does not treat the whole person. They can treat the body and the mind (though not very successfully in most cases)....but only God can doctor the spirit.
I see the Bible's formula rather simply....the soul and the spirit are two distinctly different components of the living being.
The body + breath (spirit) = a soul. To divide the soul from the spirit is to cause death. Only God can resurrect a body and restore the spirit so that it lives and breathes again.
That is my understanding.
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