Refuting soul sleep, aka dirt nap doctrine

[BarneyFife]

that is not the doctrine of the immortality the Church holds.

What church?

Indeed, the body, the soul of it, and the spirit all shown.

No "spirit" is mentioned:

Then the LORD
יְהוָ֨ה (Yah·weh)
Noun - proper - masculine singular
Strong's 3068: LORD -- the proper name of the God of Israel

God
אֱלֹהִ֜ים (’ĕ·lō·hîm)
Noun - masculine plural
Strong's 430: gods -- the supreme God, magistrates, a superlative

formed
וַיִּיצֶר֩ (way·yî·ṣer)
Conjunctive waw | Verb - Qal - Consecutive imperfect - third person masculine singular
Strong's 3335: To mould into a, form, as a, potter, to determine

man
הָֽאָדָ֗ם (hā·’ā·ḏām)
Article | Noun - masculine singular
Strong's 120: Ruddy, a human being

[from] the dust
עָפָר֙ (‘ā·p̄ār)
Noun - masculine singular
Strong's 6083: Dust, clay, earth, mud

of
מִן־ (min-)
Preposition
Strong's 4480: A part of, from, out of

the ground
הָ֣אֲדָמָ֔ה (hā·’ă·ḏā·māh)
Article | Noun - feminine singular
Strong's 127: Ground, land

and breathed
וַיִּפַּ֥ח (way·yip·paḥ)
Conjunctive waw | Verb - Qal - Consecutive imperfect - third person masculine singular
Strong's 5301: To breathe, blow

the breath
נִשְׁמַ֣ת (niš·maṯ)
Noun - feminine singular construct
Strong's 5397: A puff, wind, angry, vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect, an animal

of life
חַיִּ֑ים (ḥay·yîm)
Noun - masculine plural
Strong's 2416: Alive, raw, fresh, strong, life

into his nostrils,
בְּאַפָּ֖יו (bə·’ap·pāw)
Preposition-b | Noun - mdc | third person masculine singular
Strong's 639: The nose, nostril, the face, a person, ire

and the man
הָֽאָדָ֖ם (hā·’ā·ḏām)
Article | Noun - masculine singular
Strong's 120: Ruddy, a human being

became
וַֽיְהִ֥י (way·hî)
Conjunctive waw | Verb - Qal - Consecutive imperfect - third person masculine singular
Strong's 1961: To fall out, come to pass, become, be

a living
חַיָּֽה׃ (ḥay·yāh)
Adjective - feminine singular
Strong's 2416: Alive, raw, fresh, strong, life

being.
לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ (lə·ne·p̄eš)
Preposition-l | Noun - feminine singular
Strong's 5315: A soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion

 

[Abaxvahl]

What church?

No "spirit" is mentioned:

Then the LORD
יְהוָ֨ה (Yah·weh)
Noun - proper - masculine singular
Strong's 3068: LORD -- the proper name of the God of Israel

God
אֱלֹהִ֜ים (’ĕ·lō·hîm)
Noun - masculine plural
Strong's 430: gods -- the supreme God, magistrates, a superlative

formed
וַיִּיצֶר֩ (way·yî·ṣer)
Conjunctive waw | Verb - Qal - Consecutive imperfect - third person masculine singular
Strong's 3335: To mould into a, form, as a, potter, to determine

man
הָֽאָדָ֗ם (hā·’ā·ḏām)
Article | Noun - masculine singular
Strong's 120: Ruddy, a human being

[from] the dust
עָפָר֙ (‘ā·p̄ār)
Noun - masculine singular
Strong's 6083: Dust, clay, earth, mud

of
מִן־ (min-)
Preposition
Strong's 4480: A part of, from, out of

the ground
הָ֣אֲדָמָ֔ה (hā·’ă·ḏā·māh)
Article | Noun - feminine singular
Strong's 127: Ground, land

and breathed
וַיִּפַּ֥ח (way·yip·paḥ)
Conjunctive waw | Verb - Qal - Consecutive imperfect - third person masculine singular
Strong's 5301: To breathe, blow

the breath
נִשְׁמַ֣ת (niš·maṯ)
Noun - feminine singular construct
Strong's 5397: A puff, wind, angry, vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect, an animal

of life
חַיִּ֑ים (ḥay·yîm)
Noun - masculine plural
Strong's 2416: Alive, raw, fresh, strong, life

into his nostrils,
בְּאַפָּ֖יו (bə·’ap·pāw)
Preposition-b | Noun - mdc | third person masculine singular
Strong's 639: The nose, nostril, the face, a person, ire

and the man
הָֽאָדָ֖ם (hā·’ā·ḏām)
Article | Noun - masculine singular
Strong's 120: Ruddy, a human being

became
וַֽיְהִ֥י (way·hî)
Conjunctive waw | Verb - Qal - Consecutive imperfect - third person masculine singular
Strong's 1961: To fall out, come to pass, become, be

a living
חַיָּֽה׃ (ḥay·yāh)
Adjective - feminine singular
Strong's 2416: Alive, raw, fresh, strong, life

being.
לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ (lə·ne·p̄eš)
Preposition-l | Noun - feminine singular
Strong's 5315: A soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion

The Eternal Church.

And I am referring to becoming a living person at the end there, for we know that the nous/spirit is what makes a person... a person, as explained by St. Paul in distinguishing between the life of man.

 

[liafailrock]

There is nothing complicated about it, and moreover that is not the doctrine of the immortality the Church holds.

The soul is immortal not because of itself but because God wills it.

That is the doctrine, for nothing which is made is necessarily immortal.

Then God was mistaken when He inspired the prophet to write "The soul that sins shall die"? That's a direct contradiction so there has to be a good reason to say this when the soul is immortal as proposed.

 

[Abaxvahl]

Then God was mistaken when He inspired the prophet to write "The soul that sins shall die"? That's a direct contradiction so there has to be a good reason to say this when the soul is immortal as proposed.

How is it a contradiction? Define death for me. Death for Christians is not non-existence and if you think it is then the Resurrection is incoherent. I agree the soul which sins shall die, in both senses that can be properly taken in.

 

[Aunty Jane]

It would be extremely redundant to say that as Rachel was dying her life was departing - it wasn’t her life that was departing as her life was ending, but her soul.

The whole council of scripture refutes dirt nap doctrine - especially 2 Corinthians 5 which is irrefutable that our body is only a home that we leave at death, and that Christians go to be with Jesus immediately.

Well, if that is what you want to believe after all the scripture shown to you, there is an old saying that I think applies to those who continue to preach the “immortal soul” doctrine....and the “I’m going to heaven immediately to be with the Lord when I die” scenario...you see....
“A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still”.

Only the elect are going to heaven, but the rest will remain on earth where God put us in the first place...including ALL those in their graves (hades) whom Jesus will resurrect, (John 5:28-29) just like he did Lazarus, whom he said was “sleeping”. Apparently Jesus has nothing to offer you on this topic since you are ignoring much of what he said, and misinterpreting the rest....

There will be nothing to penetrate your closed mind and heart.....and I am sorry for that.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Protestants who subscribe to the immortal soul doctrine reflect the absolute irony of modern Protestantism. Modern Protestants say the "soul sleep" doctrine isn't biblical, but Martin Luther himself disagreed with this position by stating the Bible teaches that the dead are in their graves waiting to be resurrected:

"It is probable, in my opinion, that with very few exceptions indeed, the dead sleep in utter insensibility until the day of judgement...On what authority can it be said that the souls of the dead may not sleep...in the same way that the living pass in profound slumber the interval between their downlying at night and their uprising in the morning?"

"Solomon judges that the dead are asleep, and feel nothing at all. For the dead lie there accounting neither days nor years, but when are awaked(resurrected) they shall seem to have slept scarce one minute."

"Thus after death, the soul goes to its bedchamber and to its peace, and while it is sleeping, it does not realize that its sleep, and God preserves the awakened soul. God is able to awake Elijah(it is certainly interesting that Martin knew Elijah died and did not go to Heaven, again contradicting the modern Protestant belief that he is still alive in Heaven), Moses, and others...so that they will live. But how can that be? That we do not know; we satisfy ourselves with the example of bodily sleep, and with what God says: it is a sleep, a rest, and a peace."

Martin even went a step further by correctly proclaiming the immortal soul doctrine is among the "endless monstrosities in the Roman dunghill of decretals". In other words, Martin Luther said the immortal soul doctrine is pagan lie on a pile of other unbiblical lies that were taught by Catholics, and he was 100% correct in that regard.

In light of Martin Luther's own words and the modern Protestant belief that Martin Luther restored the truth of the Bible, Protestants who believe in the immortal soul doctrine are faced with a logical paradox: if Martin Luther indeed restored the truth of the Bible like they believe he did, then the Protestants who subscribe to the immortal soul doctrine have to either accept the fact that they have been deceived or deem Martin Luther a false teacher and deceiver. They cannot have it both ways and say they are against Catholic doctrines while stubbornly clinging to them.

Martin Luther was Roman Catholic and a monk who changed his viewpoint after a sudden realization of the truth of the gospel from an illumination of a passage from the book of Romans. That's where the "Romans road " argument of some evangelists comes from.
His theology was not that far removed from Catholic dogma, but he was offended by the concept of plenary indulgence and rejected the authority of the church and the role of the priesthood in salvation. I'm not familiar with all his theses, but I don't place extraordinary value on anything he said as he remained strongly biased in his antisemitism.

 

[BarneyFife]

The Eternal Church

Oh. I've never been to one of those.

we know that the nous/spirit is what makes a person

Who's we?

 

[BarneyFife]

I'm not familiar with all his theses, but I don't place extraordinary value on anything he said as he remained strongly biased in his antisemitism.

Aren't you indulging in the genetic fallacy here, just a bit?
Although a clear definition of "extraordinary" would definitely factor into this, too.
Just ignore me; most people do. lol

 

[Enoch111]

Then God was mistaken when He inspired the prophet to write "The soul that sins shall die"? That's a direct contradiction so there has to be a good reason to say this when the soul is immortal as proposed.

We need to properly understand "The soul that sins shall die" since obviously there is a great deal of misunderstanding about death.

1. The word "soul" is often used instead of "person" so we should take the above statement as "The person who sins shall die".

2. Adam was told that on the day he disobeyed God (sinned) he would die. Of course he did not drop dead that day, but lived for 930 years. So what did God mean?

3. Death is essentially separation. So the day Adam and Eve sinned they were separated from God and we see this in Genesis 3. They were guilty, ashamed, and fearful. And the people who are not redeemed are separated from God eternally in the Lake of Fire. We are not told about the ultimate destiny of Adam, but we note that he is not mentioned in Hebrews 11 (with Abel as the first justified individual).

4. Physical death is the separation of the soul and spirit from the body. And since all human beings are sinners by birth (through Adam) and by choice (through the flesh) all die physically.

5. But the Bible speaks of "the Second Death" and connects it to the Lake of Fire. Therefore the Second Death is eternal separation from God in eternal Hell.

6. When men die, their bodies go into their graves, but their souls and spirits either go to Heaven directly (for the righteous dead) or go to Hades directly (for the unrighteous dead).

7. Hades is a place of torment for the unsaved according to Christ, but no saints go to Hades (as they did before Christ's resurrection, when they were resting in "Abraham's Bosom" and separated by a wide chasm from the unrighteous).

8. There will be a resurrection of the unjust (unrighteous) and all who are in Hades will stand before the Great White Throne to be judged. Since their names will not be found in the Book of Life, they will experience the Second Death. But no one who is in Christ will face the Second Death.

9. "Mortality" or "immortality" are terms which are only applicable to the body, not the soul which is imperishable. Yet we find people talking about the mortality or immortality of souls. Man is a tripartite being with body, soul, and spirit. While the body is subject to death, decay and corruption, and turns to dust, the soul and spirit are imperishable and remain so for eternity. Either with God or separated from God.

10. Annihilationism is false doctrine and only the cults believe in and promote this nonsense (just like Soul Sleep six feet under).

 

[Abaxvahl]

Who's we?

The Church in which I participate. As I said St. Paul defines this many times and even Jesus for instance at the end of St. Luke's Gospel or in the Sermon on the Mount, and also Moses in Genesis even. St. Gregory of Nyssa expounds:

"It seems to me that by these facts Moses reveals a hidden doctrine, and secretly delivers that wisdom concerning the soul, of which the learning that is without had indeed some imagination, but no clear comprehension. His discourse then hereby teaches us that the power of life and soul may be considered in three divisions.

"(1) For one is only a power of growth and nutrition supplying what is suitable for the support of the bodies that are nourished, which is called the vegetative soul, and is to be seen in plants; for we may perceive in growing plants a certain vital power destitute of sense;

"(2) and there is another form of life besides this, which, while it includes the form above mentioned, is also possessed in addition of the power of management according to sense; and this is to be found in the nature of the irrational animals: for they are not only the subjects of nourishment and growth, but also have the activity of sense and perception.

"(3) But perfect bodily life is seen in the rational (I mean the human) nature, which both is nourished and endowed with sense, and also partakes of reason and is ordered by mind."

Note that the word translated "sense" here includes psychological sense, like imagination and so on. Animals share this with us (dogs can dream as I say to summarize it). Our soul has all of these but the lower creatures have wither only one or only two but not the final one.

That it is proven from Scripture is clear when we consider even the fact that we can be aware of things which do not come from below so when we look at our lack of that we do not ourselves become unaware. This refutes soul sleep by itself with a clear and rational proof. Denying this leads into agnosticism and a contradiction with what Jesus says and does in many places. Not to mention the least place (but my personal favorite) being "flesh and blood have not revealed this to you."

 

[BarneyFife]

The thing I've noticed about those who deny that you're dead when you die is that they can't agree on what their convoluted definition of death is. That's what happens when you allow Greek dualism to invade your Christianity.

 

[Abaxvahl]

The thing I've noticed about those who deny that you're dead when you die is that they can't agree on what their convoluted definition of death is.

What's your definition of death? Mine is not convoluted at all and if you want an explication on precisely every sense I use death in I can provide that in as much detail as you require.

May God keep me from being vague and not being able to pronounce what is in my soul as that in itself is a sign of death, or rather, is death.

 

[BarneyFife]

What's your definition of death? Mine is not convoluted at all and if you want an explication on precisely every sense I use death in I can provide that in as much detail as you require.

It seems you missed the whole point of my remark. The evidence from Scripture that I've provided is enough to properly represent my position on the subject. IMO, there's not much that needs to be added. Just wanted to stop by and present a half-decent case for the "dirt nap" camp/"cult."

 

[Abaxvahl]

It seems you missed the whole point of my remark. The evidence from Scripture that I've provided is enough to properly represent my position on the subject. IMO, there's not much that needs to be added. Just wanted to stop by and present a half-decent case for the "dirt nap" camp/"cult."

I see. Well your case is based in definitions and understandings beyond Scripture, for I can (and do) quote the same Scriptures to prove my half-decent case for the immortality position, which I think is sufficient to represent it. God bless.

 

[liafailrock]

We need to properly understand "The soul that sins shall die" since obviously there is a great deal of misunderstanding about death.

1. The word "soul" is often used instead of "person" so we should take the above statement as "The person who sins shall die".

2. Adam was told that on the day he disobeyed God (sinned) he would die. Of course he did not drop dead that day, but lived for 930 years. So what did God mean?

3. Death is essentially separation. So the day Adam and Eve sinned they were separated from God and we see this in Genesis 3. They were guilty, ashamed, and fearful. And the people who are not redeemed are separated from God eternally in the Lake of Fire. We are not told about the ultimate destiny of Adam, but we note that he is not mentioned in Hebrews 11 (with Abel as the first justified individual).

4. Physical death is the separation of the soul and spirit from the body. And since all human beings are sinners by birth (through Adam) and by choice (through the flesh) all die physically.

5. But the Bible speaks of "the Second Death" and connects it to the Lake of Fire. Therefore the Second Death is eternal separation from God in eternal Hell.

6. When men die, their bodies go into their graves, but their souls and spirits either go to Heaven directly (for the righteous dead) or go to Hades directly (for the unrighteous dead).

7. Hades is a place of torment for the unsaved according to Christ, but no saints go to Hades (as they did before Christ's resurrection, when they were resting in "Abraham's Bosom" and separated by a wide chasm from the unrighteous).

8. There will be a resurrection of the unjust (unrighteous) and all who are in Hades will stand before the Great White Throne to be judged. Since their names will not be found in the Book of Life, they will experience the Second Death. But no one who is in Christ will face the Second Death.

9. "Mortality" or "immortality" are terms which are only applicable to the body, not the soul which is imperishable. Yet we find people talking about the mortality or immortality of souls. Man is a tripartite being with body, soul, and spirit. While the body is subject to death, decay and corruption, and turns to dust, the soul and spirit are imperishable and remain so for eternity. Either with God or separated from God.

10. Annihilationism is false doctrine and only the cults believe in and promote this nonsense (just like Soul Sleep six feet under).

Eternal life in hell should not be the punishment for finite sin. Death (cessation of life, no consciousness, no being) is what the bible teaches from what I can see.

 

[BarneyFife]

The word "soul" is often used instead of "person" so we should take the above statement as "The person who sins shall die".

Why do we need to deviate from the KJV rendering to come to a better understanding? Are you suggesting that there is some deficiency in the translation?

 

[BarneyFife]

I see. Well your case is based in definitions and understandings beyond Scripture, for I can (and do) quote the same Scriptures to prove my half-decent case for the immortality position, which I think is sufficient to represent it. God bless.

Beyond Scripture? That's lightly humorous. Hey, no need to get personal. It's not like I invented conditional immortality. I just don't want to turn into a brawler as I did over in the trinity debate thread, recently.

 

[Enoch111]

Eternal life in hell should not be the punishment for finite sin. Death (cessation of life, no consciousness, no being) is what the bible teaches from what I can see.

The Bible refutes that on more than one occasion. And the words of Christ should be the final authority in all things.

MARK 9 (KJV): THE REALITY OF ETERNAL HELL STATED BY CHRIST
42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell [Gehenna = the Lake of Fire], into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, [Gehenna = the Lake of Fire] into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire [Gehenna = the Lake of Fire]: 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

1. Why did Christ speak of Gehenna three times in seven verses? Because this was a solemn and dire warning to all sinners to repent and be converted before death.

2. Why did Christ say "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" three times in seven verses? Because the "worm" is a metaphor for the torments of Hell, and the fires of Hell are unquenchable. Therefore eternal. If this does not add up to eternal torment, then you can fool yourself any way you want.

So let's look at the meaning of Gehenna as noted in Bible Hub.
HELPS Word-studies
1067 géenna (a transliteration of the Hebrew term, Gêhinnōm, "the valley of Hinnom") – Gehenna, i.e. hell (also referred to as the "lake of fire" in Revelation).

Gehenna ("hell"), the place of post-resurrection torment (judgment), refers strictly to the everlasting abode of the unredeemed where they experience divine judgment in their individual resurrection-bodies. Each of the unredeemed receives one at the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev 20:11-15), i.e. a body that "matches" their capacity for torment relating to their (unique) judgment.

Then let's look at the significance of "worm" in this context, and go to John Gill's commentary:
'...Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. The passage referred to, is in Isaiah 66:24, and as there, the words are spoken of such, as transgressed against the Lord; so here, of such as offended any of Christ's little ones, or were offended by an hand, a foot, or eye, and retained them: by their worm is meant, their conscience; for as a worm that is continually gnawing upon the entrails of a man, gives him exquisite pain; so the consciences of sinners, will be continually flying in their faces, bringing their sins to remembrance, accusing them of them, upbraiding them with them, aggravating them, tormenting them for them, filling them with dreadful anguish and misery, with twinging remorses, and severe reflections, and which will never have an end.

This will be always the case; conscience will be ever distressing, racking, and torturing them; it will never cease, nor cease doing this office, and so the Chaldee paraphrase of Isaiah 66:24 renders this phrase, , "their souls shall not die"; but shall ever continue in the dreadful torments and unspeakable horrors of a corroding conscience; and by "the fire" may be meant the fire of divine wrath let into their souls, which will never be extinguished; and so Jarchi interprets the phrase in Isaiah 66:24, "their fire", "in hell".

It is a tradition of the Jews (l), that the light, fire, which God created on the second day, "there is no quenching it for ever"; as it is said, "for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched", Isaiah 66:24, the passage which is here referred to; the reason they give is, because it is the fire of hell; the sense of which is sometimes given by the Jewish doctors thus (m); "their worm shall not die" from the body, "and the fire shall not be quenched" from the soul...'

 

[BarneyFife]

And the words of Christ should be the final authority in all things.

Unless, of course, one is a Gospel of Paul defender. They're everywhere, it seems.

 

[Enoch111]

Why do we need to deviate from the KJV rendering to come to a better understanding? Are you suggesting that there is some deficiency in the translation?

There is no deficiency in the translation, but the word "soul" can be applied to either persons or souls, depending on context. Here is an example where souls and persons are used for the same Greek word:

King James Bible
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

New American Standard Bible
who once were disobedient when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

The distress signal called S.O.S means "Save Our Souls". This is not about salvation but rescue from impending death.