Regeneration before or after saving faith

[Eternally Grateful]

Oh yes they certainly do.

Oh no they don’t

No one preaches that we teach people the gospel, and they of their own power apart from the leading and teaching of God who is convicting them, come to christ.

Stop your bearing false witness, God is a witness of your sins. How do expect people to listen to you with all yoru anger and your continued lies about others? You should be ashamed

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This is the whole problem. They are going by what they think is fair. Unfortunately, they don't get to decide what is or is not fair. They are just the clay.

You don’t either

So why do you not practice what you preach?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This statement is actually against forum rules.

I guess him calling me a false teacher is with the forums rules?

I know you do not think you teach/preach a works based salvation but you actually do. You give a poor analogy so let me help you.

Yes, you are waiting for rescue but you are unconscious. They choose to come get you. You have to be revived.

Yet I m not unconscious. Thats where you are wrong in all of your calculations.. Even if your right, and someone came and woke me up. I would still have to CHOSE to be rescued.

I am retired coast guard. I have witnessed many a life saving rescues. And you know what? Not everyone ill just sit by and idly let you save them. And some have died because they refuse to trust the one who was sent to save them

God is those things, but with qualifications.

Grace has no qualification. Nor does love.

Jesus told us to forgive unconditionally.

God is not going to tell us to love all people (agape I’ve) even our next, when he refuses to do the same.

ALL people are Gods enemy, For him to love al people like he demands us to do. He must LOVE ALL PEOPLE.

Thats means giving them the ability to chose life over death.

God also has the right to do whatever it takes to let that happen.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

This is the whole problem. They are going by what they think is fair. Unfortunately, they don't get to decide what is or is not fair. They are just the clay.

I have zero problem with God being God and the fact he wills not to grant mercy to everyone. They do have a huge problem with this.

Any person looking at Scripture can see this theme throughout its pages. God is immutable, we see the same thing today and it is recorded in the NT: mercy on whom he wills and justly leaves them in their sins and finds fault with them. They are livid on the fact he can still find fault while not granting them mercy. "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" (Or, since this is all according to his counsel and we cannot do a thing about it, it's unfair!)

Yep. Guess what everyone? God is actually God. The reason that there is little trembling of fear toward God is because they reject this solemn truth and see God as a pushover. Even the demons have enough sense to shudder while believing James 2:19.

These guys cannot see they are the epitome of the man in Romans 9:19-20. Since (not if) God does not grant mercy to every single person, nor have all heard the Gospel, nor have all been offered a chance for salvation, they are talking back to God charging him as being unjust. That is a fact!

Who knows, God may actually open their eyes, but that is up to him.

 

[Taken]

When does one become Regenerated? Does it happen before in order to empower us to believe or does it happen after we believe?

Play nice

Regeration regarding man...
Man, Flesh body from earth, (its natural Truth, i.e. natural spirit in the body's natural heart out of the Earth and a living soul from God.

True belief in the natural spirit in the natural heart... making a true Confession of Belief to God of God AND Jesus the Christ...
Is Gods Offering for regeration.

The Body becomes accounted Dead.
Crucified with Christ.
The Body becomes, Forgiven
The Body becomes, washed in Jesus' Blood.
The Body becomes, sanctified (set apart from all others Not converted)
The Body becomes Covered with Gods Light, that He can see no darkness and remembers no darkness the body had.
The Body becomes justified to be Resurrected and Claimed/ Redeemed by the Lord God.
The Body is Sealed with Gods mark, the Kings Mark, that Only the King can Claim.

We can not physically SEE All the changes God makes to the Body....until the day a Body is Raised up...which is the moment the man's immortal eyes can see His new body AND SEE God, as HE IS.

In the meantime, while "we" still SEE with mortal EYES, we can only SEE our natural Flesh.
In the meantime, we live in Jesus' Already raised Living Body... thus the words...we being ..."IN Christ" as mentioned nearly 80 times in Scripture.

A Person Baptized with the Holy Spirit: already has a Restored / Saved soul, new born Again spirit to natural (of a mans Seed, to Spiritual of Gods Seed; born Again.

A man shall see his new body when he is risen UP.

It is already accomplished in a Converted man...we simply can not SEE Gods Spiritual accomplishment in us, with mortal eyes.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yep God creates people for the sole purpose but to have them live a life of pain and suffering. (even people who have everything commit suicide. Because life apart from God is not fulfilling) Not to give them any hope of being redeemed, And after all this Send them to eternal darkness with no change of redemption.

Yep. ‘This is a God of love.. Satan loves this God. Its the same lie he told Eve. which led to the fall of mankind. (Does God really love)

 

[Preacher4Truth]

@Eternally Grateful

I'm sorry you've resorted to your common practice of name calling and deeming others lost. You also are sowing discord and division between my Reformed brothers by singling me out from them as "not a brother/lost." I'm thankful for @reformed1689 standing up for me and against your false accusations.

I still count you as a brother. Perhaps one day God will open up your eyes and show you that your conditional election is total error, isn't the gospel and isn't salvation by grace. It is salvation based upon you earning it through your good actions, so then God rewarded you for so doing and chose you because you did something. God will have to be the One to humble you and open your eyes to this fallacy. God bless, and I sincerely mean it.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

@Eternally Grateful

I'm sorry you've resorted to your common practice of name calling and deeming others lost. You also are sowing discord and division between my Reformed brothers by singling me out from them as "not a brother/lost." I'm thankful for @reformed1689 standing up for me and against your false accusations.

I still count you as a brother. Perhaps one day God will open up your eyes and show you that your conditional election is total error, isn't the gospel and isn't salvation by grace. It is salvation based upon you earning it through your good actions, so then God rewarded you for so doing and chose you because you did something. God will have to be the One to humble you and open your eyes to this fallacy. God bless, and I sincerely mean it.

1. I am not singling out reframed people. Only you and your continued attacks, which has now crossed from one thread to another. (If I remember, I have you on ignore in the other thread. Because of yoru insistent attacks against those who do not agree with you. Yet I am close with a few calvinists who do not resort to your level of anger and name calling)
2. Your the one sewing discord between people of Christ, by tacking anyone who does not agree with you. All one has to do is look at your response to me, and this is clearly seen.
3. Name calling? You should practice what you preach. Do I need to go back to your posts you made to me and show all the things you said about me?
4. I said according to your actions. I do not see you as a brother. It dos not mean you are not. It was meant to show you your actions are what brought me to my conclusion. I have not said this about any other of your brothers. As they seem to speak with love and do not resort to attacks. As you do
5. Even here, You continue to bear false witness against me. You call me a conditional Salvationist. Yet there is no condition or work of righteousness which I have every proclaimed you can name where I am saving myself.

I have shown hw this is true, And as always You have not even tried to respond to a word I have said, You just attack (notice your brother responding to me, and tried me to show something he saw wrong with my example. And I in return showed him how I could not agree with him, with no need to attack him) Why you seem to find it impossible to do this after the years I have known you is being my imagination, other than you must be a proud man

Faith is not an ACTION. It is a STATE OF MIND.

If you do not want to see this, thats fine, Do us a favor. Stop attacking those who disagree with you.

 

[reformed1689]

Yet I m not unconscious. Thats where you are wrong in all of your calculations.. Even if your right, and someone came and woke me up. I would still have to CHOSE to be rescued.

I am retired coast guard. I have witnessed many a life saving rescues. And you know what? Not everyone ill just sit by and idly let you save them. And some have died because they refuse to trust the one who was sent to save them

I didn't know dead people were conscious. You seem to think we are in a conscious state (spiritually) before regeneration. We aren't. Scripture says we are DEAD.

Grace has no qualification. Nor does love.

So, grace has no qualification? Yet God says he will have mercy on whomever he chooses. Does he love those in Hell the same as those in Heaven? I think you need to take a hard look at your theology.

He must LOVE ALL PEOPLE.

And here you are misunderstanding. God does love all people in general terms. But he does not love all the same.

Thats means giving them the ability to chose life over death.

That is of your own creation and not found in Scripture.

God also has the right to do whatever it takes to let that happen.

Yet, he doesn't.

 

[reformed1689]

Faith is not an ACTION. It is a STATE OF MIND.

That is simply not true. If I decide to do something that is, in fact, an action.

 

[reformed1689]

You don’t either

So why do you not practice what you preach?

Not sure what you mean here. How am I practicing something different than I preach?

 

[Candidus]

It is quite simple and irrefutably logical; if you are regenerated by God before you can respond and express faith, then it has nothing to do with you or imagined free-will. Therefore, since God creates every person depraved and without any freedom to accept or reject this forced "grace", then God is responsible if anyone goes to Hell. It eliminates all responsibility and rebellion since everyone can only do what God predestines and wills. Everyone is 100% obedient to the will of God! They can do no other.

The Biblical order is "repent and believe" and then "salvation" follows. It is not in the reverse order. Such Fatalism, as some argue for in the name of Calvinism, is an unbiblical heathen philosophy that makes God out to be a Puppeteer and a Monster!

 

[reformed1689]

It is quite simple and irrefutably logical; if you are regenerated by God before you can respond and express faith, then it has nothing to do with you or imagined free-will. Therefore, since God creates every person depraved and without any freedom to accept or reject this forced "grace", then God is responsible if anyone goes to Hell. It eliminates all responsibility and rebellion since everyone can only do what God predestines and wills. Everyone is 100% obedient to the will of God! They can do no other.

The Biblical order is "repent and believe" and then "salvation" follows. It is not in the reverse order. Such Fatalism, as some argue for in the name of Calvinism, is an unbiblical heathen philosophy that makes God out to be a Puppeteer and a Monster!

You really need to read Romans 9

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I didn't know dead people were conscious. You seem to think we are in a conscious state (spiritually) before regeneration. We aren't. Scripture says we are DEAD.

Scripture says we are dead because of sin. This as long s we are still condemned by sin, we are dead. Justification MUST precede regeneration.

A prisoner is not set free before he is redeemed (whether he aid or his own sins or was found innocent of those sins) he must be deemed “justified (a legal term) first.

People ar physically alive while spiritually dead. They chose to do right and wrong all the time.. They are not dead to the point they can do nothing. That makes no sense.

This is why I can not see it your way bro.

So, grace has no qualification?

Grace has one qualification. it took place on the cross. It was completed when jesus said “it is finished”

Yet God says he will have mercy on whomever he chooses. Does he love those in Hell the same as those in Heaven? I think you need to take a hard look at your theology.

yes and look at the context of that passage, He chose to have mercy on Jacob, and Not edom. Nations. Not people. The fatalistic view of romans 9 is troublesome.

And here you are misunderstanding. God does love all people in general terms. But he does not love all the same.

If he does not offer all people the opportunity to be saved, He does not love them. Yes, He loves some more (Jacob I loved, But Esau I hated (Literally loved less)). But if he does not offer everyone the same gift. He does not love them..

That is of your own creation and not found in Scripture.

Well thats your opinion. I think otherwise..

Yet, he doesn't.

I will let God decide that, not you. Ok?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That is simply not true. If I decide to do something that is, in fact, an action.

Thats simply not true

Faith CAUSES actions. It is not an action itself.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for. The evidence of things not seen.

It is not an action. IT CAUSES ACTIONS. (Thats why if there are no actions. It is said ones faith is dead)

 

[Taken]

Nowhere does it say election is based upon anything we do.

Yes it does. When we choose to Give our life to God...He Converts is.

The Election is Ours to make.

1 Thes 1:
[4] Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

Nowhere. Even when God told Israel why He chose them in Deuteronomy 7:7-8, it was not based on anything within them. Same with us. There was nothing in the elect that was missing in the non-elect.

.

God is the CREATER ...and Maker.
Gods Offered knowledge about him to all men...as SOME agreed to do as He said, God began Dividing men...and MAKING changes In the men divided into Himself.

Ex 19:
[8] And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

Men were divided; Hebrews from Gentiles; Hebrews and Gentiles from Tribes, Tribe and Tribe divide...and within the Tribes.
Ex 8:23
2 Cor 35:5
Neh 11:36

**and became More divided after Jesus began preaching.
Luke 12:51
U
Tribe of Judah amongst themselves, Tribe of Judah and Benjamin's adjoining, Tribe of Judah and Gentiles joining and some Dividing..and Again for centuries Divided and today some adjoining IN Christ.

Jesus Gave His FLESH Body for the Life of the world...that is His Offering to every man.

John 6:
[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

God calls Many, few Respond, and thus Few become His chosen.

It is God Loved us First, makes us an Offer...and Our response to ELECT/choose Him...renders His Response to choose us.
And with the Fact in mind...He already knows who will choose Him.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Not sure what you mean here. How am I practicing something different than I preach?

Your going by what you THINK IS FAIR,

You don’t get to decide what is and is not fair.

You see, you used circular reasoning. What you used to Jude another can be used to judge yourself.

Sadly it is a thing many people use, which is meaningless and nothing but a derogatory statement used to try to tear an app onene down. But has no power. Because the same argument can be used against them

 

[Renniks]

I see you like to cherry-pick out of context. I suggest you read John chapter 6.

I have. It doesn't teach limited atonement.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You really need to read Romans 9

Which view. The fatalistic view. Or the view as written in context?

 

[Candidus]

You really need to read Romans 9

You need to read the Bible.