Regeneration before or after saving faith

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Eternally Grateful

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You need to read the Bible.
Romans 9, I did a teaching on this once

my opening statement was this

is romans 9 about God sending unborn babies to hell, or is it about something else?

I then gave the fatalistic perspective, and used their arguments, and just as one of the leaders looked like he was ready to tar and feather me,

I said this is the fatalistic view, but is this what paul said?

I then took romans 9 verse by verse, then I took the OT verses paul quoted and looked at them in context using the OT passages themselves. Showed how paul was doing something totally different, He was answering a question asked in those days. Did God make a mistake choosing Israel. A people who continually went against him, Continually sinned and made him look bad. And at the end failed him. Was God so limited he could not chose a people who would respond to him and love him?

And it all fits in harmony, and brings romans 9 - 11 into complete harmony.
 

reformed1689

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Romans 9, I did a teaching on this once

my opening statement was this

is romans 9 about God sending unborn babies to hell, or is it about something else?

I then gave the fatalistic perspective, and used their arguments, and just as one of the leaders looked like he was ready to tar and feather me,

I said this is the fatalistic view, but is this what paul said?

I then took romans 9 verse by verse, then I took the OT verses paul quoted and looked at them in context using the OT passages themselves. Showed how paul was doing something totally different, He was answering a question asked in those days. Did God make a mistake choosing Israel. A people who continually went against him, Continually sinned and made him look bad. And at the end failed him. Was God so limited he could not chose a people who would respond to him and love him?

And it all fits in harmony, and brings romans 9 - 11 into complete harmony.
You have missed the point completely.
 

Eternally Grateful

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What is written in context. You apparently don't understand what that means.
Or maybe you do not understand what it says

Here we go with the same old responses. Which can go either way.

You should really practice not doing this. It does not help you or anyone else out.
 

reformed1689

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Scripture says we are dead because of sin. This as long s we are still condemned by sin, we are dead. Justification MUST precede regeneration.

A prisoner is not set free before he is redeemed (whether he aid or his own sins or was found innocent of those sins) he must be deemed “justified (a legal term) first.

People ar physically alive while spiritually dead. They chose to do right and wrong all the time.. They are not dead to the point they can do nothing. That makes no sense.

This is why I can not see it your way bro.

Grace has one qualification. it took place on the cross. It was completed when jesus said “it is finished”


yes and look at the context of that passage, He chose to have mercy on Jacob, and Not edom. Nations. Not people. The fatalistic view of romans 9 is troublesome.


If he does not offer all people the opportunity to be saved, He does not love them. Yes, He loves some more (Jacob I loved, But Esau I hated (Literally loved less)). But if he does not offer everyone the same gift. He does not love them..



Well thats your opinion. I think otherwise..



I will let God decide that, not you. Ok?
We have shown you that you are wrong on multiple levels. I can't help you.
 

reformed1689

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Or maybe you do not understand what it says

Here we go with the same old responses. Which can go either way.

You should really practice not doing this. It does not help you or anyone else out.
I'll just stick with what the Scriptures say, not those who deny the Scriptures and write man's way into them.
 

Eternally Grateful

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We have shown you that you are wrong on multiple levels. I can't help you.
No

All you have done is give me what you think the Bible says

You have proven nothing.. other than we disagree on certain passages.

And again, I could say the same abou you, how we hve shown you that you are wrong

Are you just going to make nonsensical arguments that can go both ways, or actually give me some meat to chew on?
 

reformed1689

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No

All you have done is give me what you think the Bible says

You have proven nothing.. other than we disagree on certain passages.

And again, I could say the same abou you, how we hve shown you that you are wrong

Are you just going to make nonsensical arguments that can go both ways, or actually give me some meat to chew on?
Your viewpoint ignores large swaths of Scripture, redefines words, and ignores context.
 

Eternally Grateful

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I'll just stick with what the Scriptures say, not those who deny the Scriptures and write man's way into them.
Again.

I can use this argument against you

If this is your only argument, You have no argument.

I showed you in one of my posts how i saw two Old Testament quotes in Chapter 9 of romans, yet you did not comment is there a reason?

Here let me help you. Can you explain this?

Mal 1:
“I have loved you,” says the Lord. “Yet you say, ‘In what way have You loved us?’
Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” Says the Lord.
“Yet Jacob I have loved; 3 But Esau I have hated, And laid waste his mountains and his heritage
For the jackals of the wilderness.” 4 Even though Edom has said,

Question.

Is God talking about two babies not yet born, or two nations (Jacob/Israel. And Esau/Edpm)
 

Eternally Grateful

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Trust me, I used to think like you then I STUDIED Scripture deeply. This was not a short process. Then I saw the errors. Now the doctrines of grace, as they are called, are CLEARLY evident throughout all of Scripture.
See here we go again. No context. No actual argument. That you have studied,

Well guess what. So have I.. You have proven no point of belief is scriptural. Just your opinion.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Your viewpoint ignores large swaths of Scripture, redefines words, and ignores context.
I can say the same for you. How many posts have you made now in a row where the argument yu use can be used against you, and in context. YOU CAN”T prove it is wrong?

Are we going to sit here and go back and forth with the same argument against each other. Which really does NOTHING to support either case

Or actually get down to the word?
 

Paul Christensen

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Nowhere does it say election is based upon anything we do. Nowhere. Even when God told Israel why He chose them in Deuteronomy 7:7-8, it was not based on anything within them. Same with us. There was nothing in the elect that was missing in the non-elect.

Now, let us examine 2 Peter 3:9 which you alluded to, but offered no exegesis.


The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.[2 Peter 3:9]

This whole letter was addressed to believers. From the very first verse to the very last one. Context here is that the ‘toward you’ is who He is not willing any should perish. And these ‘toward you’ are believers. Look at another passage that uses the same language.

”What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.[Matthew 18:12-14]

The Christ is telling them how unwilling He is that any of His sheep perish. He is so not willing they perish, He died for them[John 10:11, John 10:15, Ephesians 5:25]. He is so not willing they perish, He seeks them, and when He finds them, He will even carry[Luke 15:5] them back and place them into the sheep pen[John 10:16]. He is not willing one of His elect die lost is the context of 2 Peter 3:9. But He is very willing the non-elect die lost.

Let’s look at 2 Peter 2 for a second...

In 2 Peter 2, Peter was talking about how God did not spare the angels who rebelled, saved Noah(and also seven in his family) and destroyed the rest of humanity, saved Lot and destroyed everyone else in Sodom, Gomorrah and the surrounding cities. Then he wrote this...then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority.[2 Peter 2:9-10] He is able to save His elect and keep the rest right where they’re at.

He not only knows how to rescue the elect, but also how to keep the non-elect right where they’re at. So He is very willing the non-elect die lost.
So, how do you know that you are one of the elect? At one stage in your life you heard the gospel, believed it, and received Christ as your Saviour. You are saying that election did not come through doing these things? If not, how can you actually know that you are one of the elect? All you might have is just religion and still be reprobate! If you do believe that you are one of the elect, what is your foundation for that?
 

reformed1689

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Again.

I can use this argument against you

If this is your only argument, You have no argument.

I showed you in one of my posts how i saw two Old Testament quotes in Chapter 9 of romans, yet you did not comment is there a reason?

Here let me help you. Can you explain this?

Mal 1:
“I have loved you,” says the Lord. “Yet you say, ‘In what way have You loved us?’
Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” Says the Lord.
“Yet Jacob I have loved; 3 But Esau I have hated, And laid waste his mountains and his heritage
For the jackals of the wilderness.” 4 Even though Edom has said,

Question.

Is God talking about two babies not yet born, or two nations (Jacob/Israel. And Esau/Edpm)
Two things: 1, he is talking about both. 2, Paul routinely uses a quote from the OT to make another point.
 

reformed1689

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I can say the same for you. How many posts have you made now in a row where the argument yu use can be used against you, and in context. YOU CAN”T prove it is wrong?

Are we going to sit here and go back and forth with the same argument against each other. Which really does NOTHING to support either case

Or actually get down to the word?
The word is we do not choose God, he chooses us. Christ died for those who were chosen and their sin, not every sin of every man. Salvation is not dependent upon us in anyway, God and God alone. We have no right to question God.