Regeneration before or after saving faith

[Paul Christensen]

No, I am not saying that.

This confuses me because you are saying that Jesus being raised up on the cross doesn't draw individual people to Him, and yet no one can come to Jesus except the Father draw him. So if the finished work of Jesus on the cross is the pivotal component in whether a person is saved or not, and that finished work doesn't draw people to Jesus, and yet the Father has to draw people in order for them to accept the gospel and be saved, then how can anyone be saved if they are not drawn by the Father to the cross of Christ and His finished work in order to be saved? Doesn't make sense to me.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Oh no they don’t

No one preaches that we teach people the gospel, and they of their own power apart from the leading and teaching of God who is convicting them, come to christ.

Stop your bearing false witness, God is a witness of your sins. How do expect people to listen to you with all yoru anger and your continued lies about others? You should be ashamed

He isn’t bearing false witnes, i.e., lying. In your analogy of the Pharisee and the tax collector, you put the onus of their salvation on the tax collector doing something and being saved and Pharisee not doing something, and dying lost. You have made salvation a carrot dangled out that if they doing this and/or that, they can receive the carrot. Congrats! You’ve made salvation a reward!

 

[SovereignGrace]

1. I am not singling out reframed people. Only you and your continued attacks, which has now crossed from one thread to another. (If I remember, I have you on ignore in the other thread. Because of yoru insistent attacks against those who do not agree with you. Yet I am close with a few calvinists who do not resort to your level of anger and name calling)
2. Your the one sewing discord between people of Christ, by tacking anyone who does not agree with you. All one has to do is look at your response to me, and this is clearly seen.
3. Name calling? You should practice what you preach. Do I need to go back to your posts you made to me and show all the things you said about me?
4. I said according to your actions. I do not see you as a brother. It dos not mean you are not. It was meant to show you your actions are what brought me to my conclusion. I have not said this about any other of your brothers. As they seem to speak with love and do not resort to attacks. As you do
5. Even here, You continue to bear false witness against me. You call me a conditional Salvationist. Yet there is no condition or work of righteousness which I have every proclaimed you can name where I am saving myself.

I have shown hw this is true, And as always You have not even tried to respond to a word I have said, You just attack (notice your brother responding to me, and tried me to show something he saw wrong with my example. And I in return showed him how I could not agree with him, with no need to attack him) Why you seem to find it impossible to do this after the years I have known you is being my imagination, other than you must be a proud man

Faith is not an ACTION. It is a STATE OF MIND.

If you do not want to see this, thats fine, Do us a favor. Stop attacking those who disagree with you.

Faith is NOT a state of mind. Wow, what a statement. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit per Galatians 5:22.

Faith is a STATE OF MIND. Wow, that’s a new low.

 

[Getitright]

When does one become Regenerated? Does it happen before in order to empower us to believe or does it happen after we believe?

Play nice

It happens at the Resurrection.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yep God creates people for the sole purpose but to have them live a life of pain and suffering. (even people who have everything commit suicide. Because life apart from God is not fulfilling) Not to give them any hope of being redeemed, And after all this Send them to eternal darkness with no change of redemption.

Yep. ‘This is a God of love.. Satan loves this God. Its the same lie he told Eve. which led to the fall of mankind. (Does God really love)

Philippians 1:29 says suffering for the Christ is just as much a gifted as believing in Him is.

 

[SovereignGrace]

So, how do you know that you are one of the elect? At one stage in your life you heard the gospel, believed it, and received Christ as your Saviour. You are saying that election did not come through doing these things? If not, how can you actually know that you are one of the elect? All you might have is just religion and still be reprobate! If you do believe that you are one of the elect, what is your foundation for that?

Election took place before time began, per Ephesians 1:4. Conversion takes place in time, via the gospel. How do I know I’m of the elect?

We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.[1 John 3:14]

 

[SovereignGrace]

So, how do you know that you are one of the elect? At one stage in your life you heard the gospel, believed it, and received Christ as your Saviour. You are saying that election did not come through doing these things? If not, how can you actually know that you are one of the elect? All you might have is just religion and still be reprobate! If you do believe that you are one of the elect, what is your foundation for that?

How do YOU know you’re one of the elect? How do you know you used your free will correctly and have not chosen incorrectly? The sword cuts both way, Brother.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Again, the WHOLE chapter.

Again, Its not there

He bible was not written in chapters, It was written as a letter. Men put letters in there. I read the context of the discussion. Ad as you saw it was not there.


Why don’t you show me the actual verses you are talking about. Instead of acting like you act. Or is that to hard for you?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Right, but he has "never" been proven wrong....

If this is about me, I have been proven wrong before. And I have changed my vies on things

Today however. I have not been shown anything but strawman arguments which can go both ways.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

He isn’t bearing false witnes, i.e., lying. In your analogy of the Pharisee and the tax collector, you put the onus of their salvation on the tax collector doing something and being saved and Pharisee not doing something, and dying lost. You have made salvation a carrot dangled out that if they doing this and/or that, they can receive the carrot. Congrats! You’ve made salvation a reward!

A man getting on his knees and begging for Gods mercy because he has come to the end of himself unable to even look up to heaven, has earned his salvation..

Wow man, I have heard everything no.. If this is calvinism. You just pushed me further away. In this case. NO ONE COULD GET SAVED,

Even jesus said, blessed are the poor in spirit (the greek word poor literally means bankrupt ot totally broke, with no hope) Thats where the tax collector was led, and his respons was the only response anyone could make. Call out to God.

I wish you all would look deep inside at what your saying with open minds. And see how bad it looks.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Faith is NOT a state of mind. Wow, what a statement. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit per Galatians 5:22.

Faith is a STATE OF MIND. Wow, that’s a new low.

Yeah it is a fruit of the spirit

BECAUSE THE SPIRIT HELPS US TO COME TO FAITH.

Again, a nonsensical argument.

Its the work of God that we believe in the one he sent. Not our work.. (john 6)

Your fear is deafening.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It happens at the Resurrection.

ressurection to live, or physical ressurection?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Philippians 1:29 says suffering for the Christ is just as much a gifted as believing in Him is.

Yep it is

For all mankind

If not for the gift of the cross. No one would ever have a thing to have faith n. We would all be headed to hell.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Again, Its not there

He bible was not written in chapters, It was written as a letter. Men put letters in there. I read the context of the discussion. Ad as you saw it was not there.


Why don’t you show me the actual verses you are talking about. Instead of acting like you act. Or is that to hard for you?

"The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children" (Romans 8:16). The Holy Spirit witnessed with my spirit and gave me total assurance that I am a child of God, and therefore one of the elect.
"Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God" (John 1:12).
So, by receiving Him and believing in His name, Jesus gave me the right to become a child of God. Thus, by receiving Christ and believing in His name, confirmed that I am one of the elect. This means that one can know that he or she is one of the elect by receiving Christ as Saviour and believing on His name. They don't have to confirm that they are of the elect before doing so.

 

[Paul Christensen]

How do YOU know you’re one of the elect? How do you know you used your free will correctly and have not chosen incorrectly? The sword cuts both way, Brother.

I responded to your post to another member instead of this one, but my comment would have been the same. Paul's instruction to the Philippian jailor was very simple: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved". All the jailor had to do was to choose to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and he would be saved and therefore definitely one of the elect. He was presented with the testimony of Paul and Silas, along with the earthquake in which the chains of all the prisoners were loosed, and he asked the question, "What must I do to be saved?" When Paul gave him the answer, he chose to accept it and was saved.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I responded to your post to another member instead of this one, but my comment would have been the same. Paul's instruction to the Philippian jailor was very simple: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved". All the jailor had to do was to choose to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and he would be saved and therefore definitely one of the elect. He was presented with the testimony of Paul and Silas, along with the earthquake in which the chains of all the prisoners were loosed, and he asked the question, "What must I do to be saved?" When Paul gave him the answer, he chose to accept it and was saved.

And I am not saying ppl do not choose my friend. We reformed also believe that. But we see that those who believe are quickened, regenerated, and then, and only then, can they believe.

In 1 Corinthians 2:14 it states But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. The NIV says 'the man without the Spirit' instead of 'a natural man', as the NASB uses. But the point is, the natural man is an unregenerate person who will not accept the things of the Spirit. Why? Because he considers them foolish. He also cannot understand the things of the Spirit. Why? They are spiritually appraised. That is why it is imperative to realize that before a lost person can believe they have to be divinely quickened by the Spirit of God. Then, and only then, can they truly repent, believe and be saved.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yeah it is a fruit of the spirit

BECAUSE THE SPIRIT HELPS US TO COME TO FAITH.

Again, a nonsensical argument.

Its the work of God that we believe in the one he sent. Not our work.. (john 6)

Your fear is deafening.

I don't have any fear my friend. I am not the one who is going around trying to get God off the hook like you guys are. Unless God treats ppl the same, you think that is unfair. You think man deserves to be called. You think that if God does not call every single solitary human whoever lived, then you think that is unfair. Friend, God has never called everybody whoever lived. He has justly left many in their fallen state.

Look at the angels who rebelled. God did not give them a chance to be restored, but justly left them in their fallen state. If He had restored them, He would have be just. If He left them in their fallen state, He is still just. If God would have slayed Adam and Eve the very moment they sinned and fell, He would have been just. If He had decided to leave them, and consequently us, in our fallen state, He would still be just. Yet, God chose a multitude of ppl who were fallen in Adam, gave them to His Son, who He is redeeming through the cross. Those He chose were no better than the ones He left in their fallen state. There was nothing in the elect that was missing in the non-elect.

By Him redeeming a number of God-hating sinners that no one can number, that shows His grace. Yet, you scoff at the notion that God leaves ppl in their fallen state. You believe that would be unjust of Him to do so. He did that in the OT. Show me where any other nation other than Israel that God gave a sacrificial system to atone for their sins. Show me where any other nation other than Israel had a high priest to intercede for them before God. Show me these things.

 

[SovereignGrace]

A man getting on his knees and begging for Gods mercy because he has come to the end of himself unable to even look up to heaven, has earned his salvation..

Wow man, I have heard everything no.. If this is calvinism. You just pushed me further away. In this case. NO ONE COULD GET SAVED,

Even jesus said, blessed are the poor in spirit (the greek word poor literally means bankrupt ot totally broke, with no hope) Thats where the tax collector was led, and his respons was the only response anyone could make. Call out to God.

I wish you all would look deep inside at what your saying with open minds. And see how bad it looks.

You still don't grasp our position. We do believe that man can get on their knees and beg for His mercy. But the only way they do this is if/when God wroughts grace into his heart. Man in his fallen state will never do this my friend. That is why God must first regenerate him before he will do this.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yeah it is a fruit of the spirit

BECAUSE THE SPIRIT HELPS US TO COME TO FAITH.

Again, a nonsensical argument.

Its the work of God that we believe in the one he sent. Not our work.. (john 6)

Your fear is deafening.

The Spirit does not help us come to faith my friend. He gifts us faith and we exercise it and are saved.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yep it is

For all mankind

If not for the gift of the cross. No one would ever have a thing to have faith n. We would all be headed to hell.

Not all mankind has been gifted the gift of suffering for Him my friend. Only the saved can suffer for Him in the biblical sense. Those who suffer will reign with Him. Granted, not all of us have suffered for Him like they did back when the bible was being written, and afterwards. Not many of us have suffered like believers did during all those Roman Inquisitions. Many were burned at the stake, had nails driven under their fingernails(OUCH!!!!), and other cruel torturings. But those who have been granted/gifted to suffer for Him, in context, is not all mankind, but believers.

If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;[2 Timothy 2:12]