Regeneration before or after saving faith

[SovereignGrace]

Yep it is

For all mankind

If not for the gift of the cross. No one would ever have a thing to have faith n. We would all be headed to hell.

This was not directed to all mankind, but to believers.

For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake. Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith, so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again. Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel; in no way alarmed by your opponents--which is a sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you, and that too, from God. For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, experiencing the same conflict which you saw in me, and now hear to be in me.[Philippians 1:21-30]

Notice that Paul wrote "in no way alarmed by your opponents", meaning it was their opponents who would cause them to suffer for the Christ. Not all mankind has been gifted this, seeing that no unbeliever would die for Him. No unbeliever would be tortured for Him, but would denounce Him. When the United States recently got the leader of ISIS(I believe he headed ISIS), the operation was named after a woman who that guy repeatedly raped to get her to denounce her Christ. Rather than denounce Him, she went through the many rapes, and I am sure other tortures. No unsaved person would have went through what she did, but would have denounced Him.

Then notice this here as well "which is a sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you, and that too, from God." The destruction of them is from God as well. Let us look here, in 2 Peter 2, in that chapter Peter was talking about how God did not spare the angels who rebelled, saved Noah(and also seven in his family) and destroyed the rest of humanity, saved Lot and destroyed everyone else in Sodom, Gomorrah and the surrounding cities. Then he wrote this...then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority.[2 Peter 2:9-10] God knows how to save His elect ppl and how to keep the non-elect under punishment.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I responded to your post to another member instead of this one, but my comment would have been the same. Paul's instruction to the Philippian jailor was very simple: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved". All the jailor had to do was to choose to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and he would be saved and therefore definitely one of the elect. He was presented with the testimony of Paul and Silas, along with the earthquake in which the chains of all the prisoners were loosed, and he asked the question, "What must I do to be saved?" When Paul gave him the answer, he chose to accept it and was saved.

Amen, he could have said no, as most likely many did, and we would never know that story

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I don't have any fear my friend. I am not the one who is going around trying to get God off the hook like you guys are. Unless God treats ppl the same, you think that is unfair. You think man deserves to be called. You think that if God does not call every single solitary human whoever lived, then you think that is unfair. Friend, God has never called everybody whoever lived. He has justly left many in their fallen state.

Look at the angels who rebelled. God did not give them a chance to be restored, but justly left them in their fallen state. If He had restored them, He would have be just. If He left them in their fallen state, He is still just. If God would have slayed Adam and Eve the very moment they sinned and fell, He would have been just. If He had decided to leave them, and consequently us, in our fallen state, He would still be just. Yet, God chose a multitude of ppl who were fallen in Adam, gave them to His Son, who He is redeeming through the cross. Those He chose were no better than the ones He left in their fallen state. There was nothing in the elect that was missing in the non-elect.

By Him redeeming a number of God-hating sinners that no one can number, that shows His grace. Yet, you scoff at the notion that God leaves ppl in their fallen state. You believe that would be unjust of Him to do so. He did that in the OT. Show me where any other nation other than Israel that God gave a sacrificial system to atone for their sins. Show me where any other nation other than Israel had a high priest to intercede for them before God. Show me these things.

Yawn

this is really getting old, same old argument, same old accusation

I am not trying to get God of the hook for anything, I am just trying to push the God he is, a loving long suffering caring God

those are his words not mine,

I do not see that God in fatalistic teaching, if you do, well that’s fine,, I am not hear to change your mind,mi am just showing a different view

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You still don't grasp our position. We do believe that man can get on their knees and beg for His mercy. But the only way they do this is if/when God wroughts grace into his heart. Man in his fallen state will never do this my friend. That is why God must first regenerate him before he will do this.

Sorry bro, you the one who attacked me by saying he earned his salvation, now your back stepping. Make up your mind

In your analogy of the Pharisee and the tax collector, you put the onus of their salvation on the tax collector doing something and being saved

In saying this you

1. think he earned his salvation
2. Have no understanding of what I believe, and are like your brother bearing false witness

there is no three

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The Spirit does not help us come to faith my friend. He gifts us faith and we exercise it and are saved.

Sorry, but I strongly disagree

Jesus said the spirit convicts the world of sin righteousness and judgment, it is him helping us understand and teaching and leading,

he does not just snap his fingers and magically we understand and believe,

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Not all mankind has been gifted the gift of suffering for Him my friend. Only the saved can suffer for Him in the biblical sense. Those who suffer will reign with Him. Granted, not all of us have suffered for Him like they did back when the bible was being written, and afterwards. Not many of us have suffered like believers did during all those Roman Inquisitions. Many were burned at the stake, had nails driven under their fingernails(OUCH!!!!), and other cruel torturings. But those who have been granted/gifted to suffer for Him, in context, is not all mankind, but believers.

If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;[2 Timothy 2:12]

Yes, only the saved can suffer for him

but I think I was talking about Jesus suffering on the cross? How did that transform into how a child of God needs to carry his cross

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This was not directed to all mankind, but to believers.

For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake. Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith, so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again. Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel; in no way alarmed by your opponents--which is a sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you, and that too, from God. For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, experiencing the same conflict which you saw in me, and now hear to be in me.[Philippians 1:21-30]

Notice that Paul wrote "in no way alarmed by your opponents", meaning it was their opponents who would cause them to suffer for the Christ. Not all mankind has been gifted this, seeing that no unbeliever would die for Him. No unbeliever would be tortured for Him, but would denounce Him. When the United States recently got the leader of ISIS(I believe he headed ISIS), the operation was named after a woman who that guy repeatedly raped to get her to denounce her Christ. Rather than denounce Him, she went through the many rapes, and I am sure other tortures. No unsaved person would have went through what she did, but would have denounced Him.

Then notice this here as well "which is a sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you, and that too, from God." The destruction of them is from God as well. Let us look here, in 2 Peter 2, in that chapter Peter was talking about how God did not spare the angels who rebelled, saved Noah(and also seven in his family) and destroyed the rest of humanity, saved Lot and destroyed everyone else in Sodom, Gomorrah and the surrounding cities. Then he wrote this...then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority.[2 Peter 2:9-10] God knows how to save His elect ppl and how to keep the non-elect under punishment.

I have no idea how you got to this discussion we were talking about the gift of the cross to the world

sorry bro,

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yawn

this is really getting old, same old argument, same old accusation

I am not trying to get God of the hook for anything, I am just trying to push the God he is, a loving long suffering caring God

those are his words not mine,

I do not see that God in fatalistic teaching, if you do, well that’s fine,, I am not hear to change your mind,mi am just showing a different view

God is loving, He is long suffering, He is caring. But this love is only bestowed on the elect. It says He hates those who commit iniquity[Psalms 5:5]. It says there are 7 things He hates in Proverbs 6:16-19, and that includes ppl. So, God does hate ppl, as even Romans 9:13 attests to.

“MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM; FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES.” It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.[Hebrews 12:5-8]

The Hebrews writer meticulously writes here, showing how the Father has a relationship with His children. Those He loves, He corrects. Seeing that not everyone receives this correction, we can deduce that not all are His children. Just look at Jacob and Esau. God throttled Jacob but blessed Esau, and never chastened him. Why? Jacob He loved, but Esau He hated.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Sorry, but I strongly disagree

Jesus said the spirit convicts the world of sin righteousness and judgment, it is him helping us understand and teaching and leading,

he does not just snap his fingers and magically we understand and believe,

The very moment He quickens us, we believe. He doesn’t snap His fingers, He divinely quickens us.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Sorry bro, you the one who attacked me by saying he earned his salvation, now your back stepping. Make up your mind

In saying this you

1. think he earned his salvation
2. Have no understanding of what I believe, and are like your brother bearing false witness

there is no three

First off, I didn’t attack you. That’s not an attack. Quit trying to play the victim here, k?
Here’s your system. You say man has a free will and God will not violate it. He will only do so much, the rest is left up to them. And it’s only after they do their part, they are regenerated. So they do something and by doing this something, they are regenerated.

You have a line drawn in the sand “here”. You are on the left , God on the right. He will come up to that line, but will not cross it. You have to reach out and grab the gift, and by grabbing it, you are saved. That’s why you earned your salvation. You had to do something to be saved.

Our stance is we were dead in sins. We were unable to respond to the gospel favorably because in our dead state, we were unable to believe[1 Corinthians 2:14], as we considered it foolishness. God had to come in and quicken us, and in this quickening, He gifted us faith and repentance, we exercised them and were saved. The only reason why we exercised faith and repentance was because God gave them to us. You said you must come to faith by the Spirit’s assistance, but He didn’t gift it to you. Huge difference there, Bro.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Sorry bro, you the one who attacked me by saying he earned his salvation, now your back stepping. Make up your mind

In saying this you

1. think he earned his salvation
2. Have no understanding of what I believe, and are like your brother bearing false witness

there is no three

The only person attacking others here is you with your abusive name calling and false accusations. But this is the lifestyle you practice online.

No one has lied about you nor called you any names. Let's keep the record straight here and not offer up mistruths.

We've refuted your errant understanding, what it entails, why it is incorrect, what it leads to &c. You don't even have biblical commentators of the historic faith which can substantiate your errors. Perhaps Finney does, but allegedly he repented of his error at the time of his death.

None of us has attacked you nor have any of us lied about you so leave off repeating such inane things. Sadly you're projecting when you make these claims of which there is no substantiation.

You believe going against your error of conditional election which isn't the gospel at all nor grace is a personal attack on you. Nope, it's a polemic against just a small portion of your false teachings and inability to see the errors of your doctrine.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

First off, I didn’t attack you. That’s not an attack. Quit trying to play the victim here, k?
Here’s your system. You say man has a free will and God will not violate it. He will only do so much, the rest is left up to them. And it’s only after they do their part, they are regenerated. So they do something and by doing this something, they are regenerated.

You have a line drawn in the sand “here”. You are on the left , God on the right. He will come up to that line, but will not cross it. You have to reach out and grab the gift, and by grabbing it, you are saved. That’s why you earned your salvation. You had to do something to be saved.

Our stance is we were dead in sins. We were unable to respond to the gospel favorably because in our dead state, we were unable to believe[1 Corinthians 2:14], as we considered it foolishness. God had to come in and quicken us, and in this quickening, He gifted us faith and repentance, we exercised them and were saved. The only reason why we exercised faith and repentance was because God gave them to us. You said you must come to faith by the Spirit’s assistance, but He didn’t gift it to you. Huge difference there, Bro.

No one has attacked him not have any lied about him, yet he continues to libel me, and now is doing the same to you.

Hopefully he will be awakened to his huge amount of contradictory teachings not in line with Scripture, completely inconsistent as you've shown him above.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

God is loving, He is long suffering, He is caring. But this love is only bestowed on the elect. It says He hates those who commit iniquity[Psalms 5:5]. It says there are 7 things He hates in Proverbs 6:16-19, and that includes ppl. So, God does hate ppl, as even Romans 9:13 attests to.

“MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM; FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES.” It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.[Hebrews 12:5-8]

The Hebrews writer meticulously writes here, showing how the Father has a relationship with His children. Those He loves, He corrects. Seeing that not everyone receives this correction, we can deduce that not all are His children. Just look at Jacob and Esau. God throttled Jacob but blessed Esau, and never chastened him. Why? Jacob He loved, but Esau He hated.

Sorry bro. Scripture does not say this. Look at how long suffering he was to the Israel. Year and years of putting up with their sin, before the ultimate punishment was enforced.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The very moment He quickens us, we believe. He doesn’t snap His fingers, He divinely quickens us.

Same difference, in a split second. Basically like he snaps his fingers

Sorry, I m not buying it. People are drawn, led by God, I know people who God drew for years. Taking them down, teaching them before they says yes..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

First off, I didn’t attack you. That’s not an attack. Quit trying to play the victim here, k?
Here’s your system. You say man has a free will and God will not violate it. He will only do so much, the rest is left up to them. And it’s only after they do their part, they are regenerated. So they do something and by doing this something, they are regenerated.

You have a line drawn in the sand “here”. You are on the left , God on the right. He will come up to that line, but will not cross it. You have to reach out and grab the gift, and by grabbing it, you are saved. That’s why you earned your salvation. You had to do something to be saved.

Our stance is we were dead in sins. We were unable to respond to the gospel favorably because in our dead state, we were unable to believe[1 Corinthians 2:14], as we considered it foolishness. God had to come in and quicken us, and in this quickening, He gifted us faith and repentance, we exercised them and were saved. The only reason why we exercised faith and repentance was because God gave them to us. You said you must come to faith by the Spirit’s assistance, but He didn’t gift it to you. Huge difference there, Bro.

Yep

You do not understand a thing I believe.

Again, Look at the tax collector. What led him to that point of despair so that he called out to jesus, And believe you me, It was not a split second, one point he had no understanding of anything then the next he just fell and repented.

It was a huge work of god in drawing him to this point.

THATS my belief.

Not this stuff you claim

Why are you so afraid of faith Have you ever answered this question?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yep

You do not understand a thing I believe.

Again, Look at the tax collector. What led him to that point of despair so that he called out to jesus, And believe you me, It was not a split second, one point he had no understanding of anything then the next he just fell and repented.

It was a huge work of god in drawing him to this point.

THATS my belief.

Not this stuff you claim

Why are you so afraid of faith Have you ever answered this question?

Brother, trust me. I know your system like the back of my hand. I was you until around June/July 2013. I know your system as good as you do, trust me.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Sorry bro. Scripture does not say this. Look at how long suffering he was to the Israel. Year and years of putting up with their sin, before the ultimate punishment was enforced.

Scripture does say this. I showed it to you.

 

[reformed1689]

Again, Its not there

He bible was not written in chapters, It was written as a letter. Men put letters in there. I read the context of the discussion. Ad as you saw it was not there.


Why don’t you show me the actual verses you are talking about. Instead of acting like you act. Or is that to hard for you?

Just before the place you were talking about IN CHAPTER 12 it is talking about the Greeks coming wanting to see Jesus, it is later in that same discourse that he says he draws all men to himself. That is both Jew and Greek.

 

[reformed1689]

This confuses me because you are saying that Jesus being raised up on the cross doesn't draw individual people to Him, and yet no one can come to Jesus except the Father draw him. So if the finished work of Jesus on the cross is the pivotal component in whether a person is saved or not, and that finished work doesn't draw people to Jesus, and yet the Father has to draw people in order for them to accept the gospel and be saved, then how can anyone be saved if they are not drawn by the Father to the cross of Christ and His finished work in order to be saved? Doesn't make sense to me.

You are confused because you are trying to combine multiple things.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Brother, trust me. I know your system like the back of my hand. I was you until around June/July 2013. I know your system as good as you do, trust me.

Brother, if you knew my system you would not be saying things about me which are not true.

you may have went to a church not like yours, but if you went to one who believes as I do you would share what I believe, And at least get close