Regeneration before or after saving faith

[Dcopymope]

Like the fall of mankind and the atrocities of hitler?

I don't think these calvinists understands what 'ordained' means like they claim they do.

 

[Renniks]

Sorry but you contradict so many scriptures by your man centered theology.
God did not "foreknow " all the children the Father gave to him?
He just knew about them as a spectator?
Do you realize that everytime you ignore truth as here in Acts 18, you turn from light to darkness?

You know just because you think your understanding of scripture is truth doesn't make it so, correct?

 

[Renniks]

Not one anti-Calvinist considers what the innocent Lamb went through,

Really? Just ridiculous. You really believe only Calvies are saved, don't you?

 

[Renniks]

Like the fall of mankind and the atrocities of hitler?

Oh, they have no problem with God decreeing (causing) those. Along with rape and children being molested.

 

[Renniks]

We do repent and believe as God works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

2Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now even more in my absence, continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God who works in you to will and to act on behalf of His good pleasure. 14Do everything without complaining or arguing,…

See the problem with picking out scraps of verses and building a theology off scraps? You never really get the whole picture that way. There are conditions you have to meet before God will work in you.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Really? Just ridiculous. You really believe only Calvies are saved, don't you?

He won’t say it. But he sure does push it.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

2Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now even more in my absence, continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God who works in you to will and to act on behalf of His good pleasure. 14Do everything without complaining or arguing,…

See the problem with picking out scraps of verses and building a theology off scraps? You never really get the whole picture that way. There are conditions you have to meet before God will work in you.

That passage simply says work out. Or mine (it’s a mining term) the salvation in you like minors min precisious minerals like gold and silver. So that it is made usefull

 

[Candidus]

And who ordained that nature, even the fall of man, according to Calvinism?

According to Fatalistic Sovereignty, nothing happens unless God causes it. We have no free-will but to only do what is foreordained. There are those that are so Philosophically sold-out to Fatalism that the only god that can impress them is one that puts on a puppet show for himself!

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Really? Just ridiculous. You really believe only Calvies are saved, don't you?

Not certain why you would ask this.

For the record, all who are in Christ are saved eternally, Calvinist, or not. We're just talking how true conversion works, and how many misunderstand this working, like you, for instance.

Now if only God would get you away from your personal achievement salvation you'd do well.

Oh, and I noticed you skipped right past my entire argument. You need to address the entire context, but dear brother you do the exact same with Scripture. See that?

I was certain you'd come back with only that portion, yet, I've never once witnessed you lament what Christ had gone through. Instead it is always the Romans 9:19-20 complaint you offer about God showing mercy to whom he wills and still finding fault with those he does not. This is what anti-Calvinists concentrate on, that God is unfair if he doesn't show mercy to every single person and think it an impossibility and travesty since he does not.

You think if man goes through tragic sin that God allowed via the fall and receives consequential justice and punishment without receiving mercy, it is unfair. You should ponder Luke 13:1-5.

I invite you to read and ponder this as well: Ten Years Later by R.C. Sproul

 

[Preacher4Truth]

He won’t say it. But he sure does push it.

More baseless false accusations from a person that calls me lost by implication here and elsewhere.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

He won’t say it. But he sure does push it.

And, by the way, while you attack, and others join in to revile as well by giving a like to your false accusations? I will not revile back, but I will say this: I still consider you a brother, and I stated this when you considered me unsaved recently in a post you were called out on for being ungodly.

 

[Paul Christensen]

No arminian would disagree. Nothing irresistible about grace.

It is just that Arminius saw things from a different perspective. Actually, he was more consistent with the Scripture than Calvin, more tolerant of those who disagreed with him, and live a more holy lifestyle. I read the first 450 page volume of his works and saw nothing that was inconsistent with Scripture. He did say that many wrote lies about him and his work, and I wonder whether those lies were the ones that survived better than the truth he was wanting to show.

 

[Renniks]

You think if man goes through tragic sin that God allowed via the fall and receives consequential justice and punishment without receiving mercy, it is unfair.

Um, no, and why are you trying to tell me what I think? But your system doesn't work that way. There's no " allowing" in Calvinism. It's God causing everyone's evil, and then punishing them for what he caused.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Like the fall of mankind and the atrocities of hitler?

Absolutely. He ordained all of it. Look at the crucifixion of the Christ. There was never a man more wronged than He was. He was an innocent man who the Jews had to violate their own Law to have Him crucified by Roman soldiers. And God ordained it.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Oh, they have no problem with God decreeing (causing) those. Along with rape and children being molested.

So, these evil atrocities happen, God could have stopped them, but didn’t. They serve no purpose and God just sets back and watches.

You guys are borderline deists.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Um, no, and why are you trying to tell me what I think? But your system doesn't work that way. There's no " allowing" in Calvinism. It's God causing everyone's evil, and then punishing them for what he caused.

God uses primary and secondary causes in what He has decreed.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It is just that Arminius saw things from a different perspective. Actually, he was more consistent with the Scripture than Calvin, more tolerant of those who disagreed with him, and live a more holy lifestyle. I read the first 450 page volume of his works and saw nothing that was inconsistent with Scripture. He did say that many wrote lies about him and his work, and I wonder whether those lies were the ones that survived better than the truth he was wanting to show.

Arminius teaches a works based gospel does he not?

 

[Renniks]

was certain you'd come back with only that portion, yet, I've never once witnessed you lament what Christ had gone through. Instead it is always the Romans 9:19-20 complaint you offer about God showing mercy to whom he wills and still finding fault with those he does not. This is what anti-Calvinists concentrate on, that God is unfair if he doesn't show mercy to every single person and think it an impossibility and travesty since he does not.

But the objector is a Calvinist, IMO. He claims in a round about way, that no one resist God's will. ( Wrong!) And Paul's reply?

19 One of you will say to me: Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God?

Paul says he talks back to God, confirmation that man can go against God's will. If all is determined by God as it is in your doctrine, we only do exactly what we are programmed to do, and can no more talk back to God than flap our arms and fly.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Then, as I said before, we are to do nothing and in fact, we are just automatons, playing our parts. If I sin, it's God sinning. If I do good, it's not my decision to do good, it's God doing it for me. In other words, nothing really matters, whatever will be will be.

Look, I can’t help it you trust your free will more than you do God. But keep plodding on. Keep working your way to heaven.

 

[Renniks]

God uses primary and secondary causes in what He has decreed.

ROTFLOL! " I didn't do it officer! The gun killed him, not me! I only squeezed the trigger!"