Rejecting Christ, or rejecting "Christianity"? (the church) ???

[Bruce-Leiter]

Good question.

It all comes down to "limited atonement", as this Rejects and Denies How God offers Jesus's Blood Atonement.

Any teaching that does not agree with Paul's Gospel, that is "justification by faith" to all who : BELIEVE.........and changes this to....."God predestines all this".. "God causes all this"... "The person has no choice'... "The Person can't believe".... this = eliminates a person's FAITH, as their own., and God requires OUR FAITH...
So, when that is denied then The Gospel itself is denied, and that is Satanic, and Paul uses the word "CURSED" when describing it.
Galatians 1:8
So, this Lie is revealed against The Cross, and that makes this Theology an "enemy of the Cross".
See, ts an Insult to Jesus's Sacrifice when a theology denies that "Jesus came into the World to save sinners" and this is changed into "came only for the predestined". "who were prechosen" and if you are not, then God blames you all the way to Hell for being a Christ rejector, and He is the one who would not let you believe.......would not choose you.
So, that is Theological insanity, and people who believe it, have a Hyper Calvinism = spiritual and mental infection that does not allow them to SEE it.

A.) Deception BLINDS The MIND.

Look at Revelation 3:20 that denies that a person is "too depraved to have faith in Christ".

The verse says that Jesus stands at the door (of your heart) and YOU open it to Him.

That is YOUR CHOOSING........not God causing or "predestining".

Whereas a demonic cult theology says, that you are too depraved to open it, so God has to force it open, by predestination.
And that's a "doctrine of devils".
Hebrews 13:9 (KJV).

What is "OUR FAITH," @Behold? Is it not God's gift to us, since we were dead to him before he gave it to us?

You say, "Any teaching that does not agree with Paul's Gospel, that is "justification by faith" to all who : BELIEVE.........and changes this to....."God predestines all this".. "God causes all this"... "The person has no choice'... "The Person can't believe".... this = eliminates a person's FAITH, as their own., and God requires OUR FAITH..."

Look at the first verse you refer to. The next verse is Jesus' explanation of his knocking at the door:

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.
Rev 3:21 The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

We can only "conquer" Satan's attacks by living in God's gift of faith and Jesus' conquering, as Paul makes clear also in Ephesians 2:8-9:

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

The result is verse 10: "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

Our faith in Christ and the resulting good works are all God-enabled. You and I can claim no credit for them whatsoever, though it is true that from human perspective, we do choose God after he works faith in our lives. Do you think that you can any credit for choosing God?

 

[Behold]

What is "OUR FAITH," @Behold? Is it not God's gift to us,

No, "our faith" is not a Gift from God, unless its the Spiritual Gift of Faith, and God does not give those to Unbelievers.
And the verse that confused you, does not say that Faith is the Gift......it says that God's GRACE is the Gift.
Read Carefully your verse as found in "Ephesians chapter 2".

And (KJV) .... Paul told you that "every person has the measure of Faith". (Romans 12)
We are born with it, as God has Faith and Free will, and we are "made in the image of God"....so, that is why we have free will and faith.
Being a sinner, a "fallen" spiritual being.... does not eliminate this at all.

See, God requires OUR Faith in Christ.....because that is ouir Free Will gving God our Faith.

Jesus does not open the Door of your heart.........YOU Do, as you are the BELIEVER.....>Not God doing it for you.
God is not looking for HIS FAITH, forced down your Throat........He is looking for YOUR FAITH, that you GIVE to God as Our "Faith is counted by God, as (Christ's) Righteouenss".
If God was causing you to have faith, then He isn't counting your faith, He's counting His that He caused you to have......
See.. Its God 's will that everyone believe in Jesus whom God sent".......so, if only the pre-destined could do that, then that verse is Lying., as it says......EVERYONE.

A Calvinist, can't see any of this, because that is what John Calvinism does to your mind.
it literally prevents you from seeing anything, except for Calvinism, .....and THAT is not Christianity.

Calvinism is not Christianity.....its CALVINISM....and that is why they are not spelled the same...

 

[St. SteVen]

Remember: Doctrines are man-made.
And therefore subject to fallibility.

[

 

[Behold]

Remember: Doctrines are man-made.

The False Doctrines are man made.......such as "Calvinism" "Universalism".....Mormonism......MaryCult-ism.... JW-ism.... Mary Baker Eddy-ism.
And so many more, that pretend to be true NT Theology.

Whereas.....Peter said that Paul's (Letters) (Paul's NT Epistles) are "SCRIPTURE"....and "All Scripture is given by Inspiration of God".

That means that God dictated the Scriptures, by the Holy Spirit and Men who were anonited by God, wrote them down.

In Paul's Case, Jesus had Paul go into the Wilderness for 3 yrs, and Jesus then taught Paul....."The Gospel" and All the Church Doctrine.
This is why Peter teaches that Paul's Letters (NT Epistles) are Scripture, and this explains why most of the NT Epistles are written by only ONE Apostle = Paul.

So when we Learn Paul's Doctrine.......we are learning What Jesus wants the Bride of Christ to learn, as Church Doctrine.
This is why Paul tells you to "be a follower of ME....as i follow Christ".

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

No, "our faith" is not a Gift from God, unless its the Spiritual Gift of Faith, and God does not give those to Unbelievers.
And the verse that confused you, does not say that Faith is the Gift......it says that God's GRACE is the Gift.
Read Carefully your verse as found in "Ephesians chapter 2".

And (KJV) .... Paul told you that "every person has the measure of Faith". (Romans 12)
We are born with it, as God has Faith and Free will, and we are "made in the image of God"....so, that is why we have free will and faith.
Being a sinner, a "fallen" spiritual being.... does not eliminate this at all.

See, God requires OUR Faith in Christ.....because that is ouir Free Will gving God our Faith.

Jesus does not open the Door of your heart.........YOU Do, as you are the BELIEVER.....>Not God doing it for you.
God is not looking for HIS FAITH, forced down your Throat........He is looking for YOUR FAITH, that you GIVE to God as Our "Faith is counted by God, as (Christ's) Righteouenss".
If God was causing you to have faith, then He isn't counting your faith, He's counting His that He caused you to have......
See.. Its God 's will that everyone believe in Jesus whom God sent".......so, if only the pre-destined could do that, then that verse is Lying., as it says......EVERYONE.

A Calvinist, can't see any of this, because that is what John Calvinism does to your mind.
it literally prevents you from seeing anything, except for Calvinism, .....and THAT is not Christianity.

Calvinism is not Christianity.....its CALVINISM....and that is why they are not spelled the same...

@Behold, you say that we were born with faith and free will. So, do you believe that every baby would trust in Jesus as the way to the Father regardless of the child's environment?? It may be faith in parents and other adults to take care of them, but we are really born with self-centeredness that has to understand that we need to be God-centered through Jesus. Are we "free" to believe in God? No, the verses I quoted to you say that we are dead to God before he gives us faith by grace:

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Why are you so adamant that you have faith already when you are born? Faith is trust in Jesus Christ as the only way for us to be accepted by the Father, not just faith in our parents and other adults. A baby does not have that kind of faith. Do you want some credit for believing in him so that you can brag about it? Paul says that salvation is no basis for such a boast. Don't you agree?

 

[Carl Emerson]

What seems to be behind this dialogue is the denial of the right for God to choose who will be saved before they are born - yet Paul makes it quite clear in Romans 9

Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,
11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—
12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”
13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

So why the emphatic claim that God does not choose who will be saved - why such extreme denial ?

I am eternally grateful for the undeserved mercy He has shown me.

 

[marks]

12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”

"the older will serve the younger", not, the older will be damned and the younger saved.

Don't change God's word.

Much love!

 

[marks]

John 3:16-21 KJV
16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20) For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21) But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Matthew 11:28-30 KJV
28) Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29) Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30) For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

These verses seem to be making a universal invitation.

Acts 17:30 KJV
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Does He actually command everyone to repent?

Romans 10:8-13 KJV
8) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11) For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

These verses, and so many more, make a certain presentation of God's will for man. Is it?

Or does it make a false presentation that while it SEEMS everyone is included, that's not really true, and that not everyone is included, but only the preselected?

So the real question here is, is the Bible lying about God?

I think not.

Much love!

 

[Carl Emerson]

"the older will serve the younger", not, the older will be damned and the younger saved.

Don't change God's word.

Much love!

I never do...

Quoted as is...

If you read further down in the same chapter it is about salvation.

God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

What seems to be behind this dialogue is the denial of the right for God to choose who will be saved before they are born - yet Paul makes it quite clear in Romans 9

Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,
11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—
12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”
13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

So why the emphatic claim that God does not choose who will be saved - why such extreme denial ?

I am eternally grateful for the undeserved mercy He has shown me.

Yeah, @Carl Emerson, there seems to be inside of people the desire to be proud of our coming to believe in Jesus, whereas the Bible takes 100% of that pride away.

 

[marks]

there seems to be inside of people the desire to be proud of our coming to believe in Jesus

Inside of which people? Is this how you feel?

Much love!

 

[marks]

I never do...

Quoted as is...

If you read further down in the same chapter it is about salvation.

God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles

Keep reading . . .

Romans 9:30-32 KJV
30) What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31) But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32) Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

This lays the responsibility on the people.

And,

Romans 8:28-30 KJV
28) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Those God foreknew, He predestined to be conformed to Christ. These are being prepared beforehand for glory, even before rebirth.

Much love!

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

Inside of which people? Is this how you feel?

Much love!

@marks, I mean that it's inside of people who want to hold onto the credit for their decisions in following Christ rather than giving God all the credit for their salvation and sanctification. That's not at all how I feel. God saved me from being a Pharisee as a child and teenager to his willing child in following Jesus, but that process continues at almost 83 years old!

 

[marks]

I mean that it's inside of people who want to hold onto the credit for their decisions in following Christ rather than giving God all the credit for their salvation and sanctification.

That's a tautology. I love tautologies!

there seems to be inside of people the desire to be proud of our coming to believe in Jesus,

it's inside of people who want to hold onto the credit for their decisions in following Christ

Those who desire to be proud of coming to Jesus are those who want to hold onto the credit.

OK. I wouldn't know, but OK.

Much love!

 

[Carl Emerson]

Keep reading . . .

Romans 9:30-32 KJV
30) What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31) But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32) Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

This lays the responsibility on the people.

And,

Romans 8:28-30 KJV
28) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Those God foreknew, He predestined to be conformed to Christ. These are being prepared beforehand for glory, even before rebirth.

Much love!

Yes...

Thanks for quoting that.

The scripture supports my position perfectly.

Faith comes from hearing the Word of Christ, those who are given ears to hear - hear.

 

[David Lamb]

No, "our faith" is not a Gift from God, unless its the Spiritual Gift of Faith, and God does not give those to Unbelievers.
And the verse that confused you, does not say that Faith is the Gift......it says that God's GRACE is the Gift.
Read Carefully your verse as found in "Ephesians chapter 2".

And (KJV) .... Paul told you that "every person has the measure of Faith". (Romans 12)
We are born with it, as God has Faith and Free will, and we are "made in the image of God"....so, that is why we have free will and faith.
Being a sinner, a "fallen" spiritual being.... does not eliminate this at all.

To whom does Paul address the letter to the Romans? Everybody? No, he is writing to the Christian believers in Rome:

“To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Ro 1:7 NKJV)

It is to Christian believers that Romans 12:3 is addressed:

“For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.” (Ro 12:3 NKJV)

So the "each one" to whom God has dealt a measure of faith is a Christian.