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Featured Replacement Theology

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Naomi25, May 15, 2018.

  1. Ac28

    Ac28 Active Member

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    1Tim 2:4 means that God wishes that ALL would be saved. I always looked at it as, if God had His druthers, ALL would be saved. The rub is that, the way God has set things up, at least for us Gentiles, it's up to the individual whether he is saved or not. Universal salvation is not an option
     
  2. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry I haven't replied to you...for some reason this message didn't get an "alert"...or I missed it...sorry!

    So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. - Rom 11:11

    Well...it's not really me saying it, it's Paul...as to what exactly he had in mind, I can't exactly tell you! But I could suggest some things. The joy that Christians have...the closeness we have with God. The blessings that have come to places like America...built on Christian values.

    I understand that probably most Jews have a hatred for Christians. But...there is probably curiosity as well. How many Jews that have become believers have investigated Jesus because they are curious about his claims? Curious about all the noise that Christians make? Curious about this man we claim is their Messiah? There must be a small amount of jealousy there...because they want that! They want their Messiah! They want the joy and closeness to God.

    As far as "fullness of the Gentiles"...well, most people understand it to mean a time when all elect Gentiles have come into God's Kingdom. It'll happen at some point. And then Jesus will return. It seems to suggest in Rom 11 that perhaps God will also use this end time period to bring a lot of Jews to Christ. At his return, just before it...who knows.

    As far as the "addition" "replacement" thing goes...I think the picture Paul paints in Romans 11 is this. Christ is the Olive Tree. As God's chosen people, Israel spent most of the OT grafted to the tree. At times of covenantal unfaithfulness, there were only Jewish elect left on the tree (Rom 11:2-4), those unfaithful had been removed. Again, at the time Paul was writing, he was among the Jewish elect still on the tree (v5), while most of the Jews had been removed (v17). Then he tells us that Gentile believers, also elect, have been grafted onto the tree (v17). Paul also tells us that if the Jews become believers, they will be grafted back in (v 23, 26).
    So...I think probably "expansion" theology is a good word for it. God is expanding the elect...where once the elect was only drawn from Jewish bloodline, now the elect can be found in any nation. And if you are elect, you are grafted into the Tree...Christ Jesus.
     
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  3. Ac28

    Ac28 Active Member

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    Naomi,

    ISRAEL is definitely the olive tree. It can't be Christ, because He called Israel the olive tree in the verse below. Also, the GENTILES were grafted into Israel, the good olive tree. Evidently, old documents have been found that indicated it was common practice to graft a wild olive tree branch into an old barren olive tree to make the old tree bear fruit. When that was done, the wild branch didn't bear fruit, just the old tree did. The fruit that they were trying to convince Israel to bear was the repentance of the acceptance of Christ. And, of course, Christ can't be termed an old olive tree that was barren.
    Jer 11:16-17 The context is Israel
    16 The Lord called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.
    17 For the Lord of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal.

    The ENTIRE purpose during Acts was, not to start a church, but to convince Israel, as a nation, to repent and accept Christ as their Messiah. As Christ said in Mt 23:39, He would not return until this happened. Also, see Ac 3:19-21. This is the only reason that Christ hasn't returned and He won't return for at least 45 more years, in my opinion -- see post #60

    Three things were done to assist Israel to convert.
    1- The Gifts were first given to the 120 Jews, then to 3000 Jews, and then to saved Gentiles, 8 years later, as a witnessing aid to Israel. Cornelius, in Ac 10, was the first Gentile in the Acts church. Israel required a sign and the gifts provided many signs and wonders.
    2- The only purpose of allowing Gentiles into the Jewish church, by grafting them into Israel, was to provoke Israel to jealousy, so they might convert.
    3- During Acts, the gospel of the Kingdom, the same Gospel preached by Christ in His earthly ministry, was preached to Israel by the 12 and Paul. Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, always went to the Jews first because his ONLY purpose was to convert Israel. He usually preached to the Pharisees, since they were the spiritual leaders of Israel and, had they converted, the entire nation would have followed them.

    ALL saved Gentiles during Acts were part of Israel, since they were grafted into Israel and would share (sort of) in Israel's blessings. Therefore, we must conclude that the Acts period was ALL Israel.

    A mentor of mine often said that, had Israel converted back then, the New Heavens and New Earth would now be about 1000 years old.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2018
  4. Truth

    Truth Well-Known Member

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    That Was Great, Well Said, and Well represented, Enjoyed your Take, which I can not disagree with.

    As to the Fullness of the Gentile's, I believe that there has been a great rift in the Teaching's of Messiah, Paul and the early Disciples, up to what we have Today. That Said! I believe that we are 8000 mile's and 2000 years removed from the Culture of the people of God, and we need to try to understand what was rely going on during Our Savior's Ministry, Pharisees were the ones in control of not only the people, but also the Temple, along with the Sadducee's. These so called Priest's were mostly Roman Appointees,- John 11:48- "If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and The Romans will come and Take away Our Place and Nation. Their Place of Authority and Control of the Nation= the people, they were sellouts to keep the people in line for the Romans! These Pharisees had developed their Own Religion, they were not teaching Moses! And to this Day the Orthodox Jews are still teaching their Own Religion, Pharisee-ism is Orthodox Judaism, from then until Now!
     
  5. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Active Member

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    Good post I agree!

    You state the fulless of the gentiles will happen at some point?

    I agree, it will happen in the future 3 1/2 year tribulation Revelation 11:1-2KJV

    Naomi you state "Then Jesus Will Return"?

    How will Jesus Return?

    Will he physically return in a body to Jerusalem, entering through the eastern gate as is taught by many in dispensationalism, Rapture Ready And David Reagan below being one?

    RaptureReady

    The Gate to Prophecy :: Dr. David R. Reagan
    I believe we will witness a replay of the Lord’s triumphant entry into Jerusalem. With angels hovering above and millions of the Redeemed filling the Kidron Valley, Jesus will ride up to the Eastern Gate on His white horse, and as He approaches the Gate, it will blow open. He will then enter the City of David, and to the triumphant shouts of “Hosanna to the Son of David,” He will be crowned the Kings of kings and the Lord of lords.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2018
  6. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    Romans 9:21 "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

    Romans 9:22 "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

    Romans 9:23 "And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

    Romans 9:24 "Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

    PCY
     
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  7. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    While i would agree with you that 'universal salvation' is not an option,

    I believe that the default setting, which was death, has now been changed to life, and that only those who knowingly and willfully choose death will perish

    Peace!
     
  8. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    The answer is quite simple. God has an eternal plan for the Church in the New Jerusalem (all redeemed Jews and Gentiles in the body of Christ), and He also has an eternal plan for a redeemed and restored kingdom of Israel on earth, under Christ and AFTER His second coming, and within the Kingdom of God (which will include the whole earth).
     
  9. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    Well...from one point of view, it's sort of impossible for the Jews of today to be practicing Judaism of the OT without a Temple and sacrifices. Not that we really want them to go back to that anyway. We want them to go forward to Christ!
     
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  10. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    Well...I honestly haven't made up my mind about the timing of it all. All I feel confident saying is that the bible says it will happen!
    As far as "how" Jesus will return...I think the Bible teaches a physical return. I think we can argue strongly that the Bible says we will see him descend (as the disciples saw him ascend) and that his feet will touch the Mt of Olives...the same place where he left earth. Again...can we be dogmatic on the timing or sequence of events? I won't be. Who knows if we meet Him in the air before he touches down, or if there is a seven year gap, or if its at the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom? I'm not sure those details matter in the scheme of it all.
    Is he coming? Yep. When? Right on time. Who will be saved? Everyone he foreknew. 'Nuff said!
     
  11. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    Do you see any of this translating into the now? For example: while many of the promises of salvation we know we have in Christ wait until the final consummation, some of them we have now...the Already, Not Yet, concept.
     
  12. Willie T

    Willie T Well-Known Member

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    "Already, but not yet"..... You sound like John Wimber. (That's a good thing.)
     
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  13. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Active Member

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    It's not that easy as saying nuff said?

    Dispensationalism teaches as shown on Rapture Ready of Jesus Christ returning in a physical body, on this earth proclaiming to be Jesus Christ returned?

    We know there will be a false Christ AKA The Antichrist, beware of this false teaching that will prepare his way.

    Matthew 24:23-27 below warns the believer of the physical Christ on earth?

    Jesus Christ Will Return In The Heavens For All Eyes On Earth To See.

    "Believe It Not"!

    Matthew 24:23-27KJV
    23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
    24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
    25 Behold, I have told you before.
    26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
    27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
     
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  14. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Active Member

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    What do you think about the Toronto Vineyard, And The Toronto Blessing?

    Wikipedia: Toronto Blessing, a term coined by British newspapers, describes the Christian revival and associated phenomena that began in January 1994 at the Toronto Airport Vineyard church (TAV), which was renamed in 1996 to Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship (TACF) and then later in 2010 renamed to Catch the Fire Toronto. It is categorized as a neo-charismatic evangelical Christian church and is located in Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
     
  15. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    At present the Gospel must be preached in all the world. This is the mandate of the Church, not Domnionism.

    Following that there will be the Resurrection/Rapture, followed by the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation. Then Christ will return to earth at His second coming, and AFTER that He will gather all the Jews to the land of Israel, and bring the majority to repentance and salvation after great mourning.

    Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7)

    And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. (Zech 12:10)


    After that He will establish the redeemed and restored kingdom of Israel. Ezekiel is the key prophecy for this development, and Zechariah provides further insight.
     
  16. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Active Member

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    Do you believe a 1000 year kingdom on earth takes place after Matthew 25:31-33 below, where "Mortal Humans" will be present living?

    Matthew 25:31-33KJV
    31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
     
  17. Truth

    Truth Well-Known Member

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    Judaism started about 300 yrs before Our Savior's Birth, Again one needs to research about Orthodox Judaism, to see what Our Savior was faced with between Him and the Pharisees, Our Savior was almost continuously shredding their false Religion! our Savior called them white Tombs, full of dead peoples bones, you lay heavy burdens upon the people of which you won't try to lift with one of your fingers. There is a foundation commandment that threads through scripture, from Genesis to Revelation, Thou Shalt not Add to or Diminish from the Word of God. these Pharisees were disregarding commandments and Adding their own rules and regulations, Commandments. Take the washing of hands before eating Bread, you can search the scriptures for ever, and you will not find it. A Sabbath Days Journey, NOT there, when Jesus was walking through the wheat field, and He and His Disciples were plucking grain and eating it, the Pharisees said to Him, why do you transgress the Commandment, See when they plucked the grain, they were Harvesting, when they rubbed the grain to remove the chaff they were winnowing and when the ate the grain they were grinding, By placing these kind of rules, that changed biblical laws they were in fact wrong. The people were allowed to eat grain anytime it was ripe, they just were not allowed to carry any out of the field, this is how the poor sustained themselves and that was a commandment. Read Ruth great story, also she becomes the Great grandmother of Our Savior.
     
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  18. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Jerusalem never reigned over the kings of the earth. Rome, the church of Rome, definitely did, and for a long time.
     
  19. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Active Member

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    Do you believe a 1000 year kingdom on earth takes place after Matthew 25:31-33 below, where "Mortal Humans" will be present living?

    Matthew 25:31-33KJV
    31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
     
  20. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Short answer: YES.
     
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