Reply: Call no man father

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Illuminator

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But thats not what the verse says.

1 Corinthians 4:15 KJV
For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

That does not mean "fathered" like you always say... Go to the original language. I already did that for you: it means in this context to bring forth.

In any sense, you cannot use one verse in the Bible to justify disobeying another verse in the Bible.
It should be obvious to anyone that Paul does not mean he has begotten biological children, no matter what version you use. He wasn't even married.

Matt. 23:9 – Jesus says, “call no man father.” But anti-Catholics use this verse in an attempt to prove that it is wrong for Catholics to call priests “father.” This is an example of “eisegesis” (imposing one’s views upon a passage) as opposed to “exegesis” (drawing out the meaning of the passage from its context). In this verse, Jesus was discouraging His followers from elevating the scribes and Pharisees to the titles of “fathers” and “rabbis” because they were hypocrites. Jesus warns us not to elevate anyone to the level of our heavenly Father.

"Father" is a biblical title we give to our priests, it does not mean we call them "God" with that title.

Matt. 23:8 – in this teaching, Jesus also says not to call anyone teacher or rabbi as well. But don’t Protestants call their teachers “teacher?” What about this commandment of Jesus? When Protestants say “call no man father,” they must also argue that we cannot call any man teacher either. This is absurd.

Judges 17:10; 18:19 – priesthood and fatherhood have always been identified together. Fatherhood literally means “communicating one’s nature,” or "begotten" and just as biological fathers communicate their nature to their children, so do spiritual fathers communicate the nature of God to us, their children, through (hopefully) teaching and example.

Eph. 3:14-15 – every family in heaven and on earth is named from the “Father.” We are fathers in the Father.

Acts 7:2; 22:1, 1 John 2:13 – elders of the Church are called “fathers.” Therefore, we should ask the question, “Why don’t Protestants call their pastors “father?”

1 Cor. 4:17 – Paul calls Bishop Timothy a beloved and faithful “child” in the Lord.

2 Cor. 12:14 – Paul describes his role as parent over his “children” the Corinthians.

Phil. 2:22 – Paul calls Timothy’s service to him as a son serves a “father.”

1 Thess. 2:11- Paul compares the Church elders’ ministry to the people like a father with his children.

1 Tim. 1:2,18; 2 Tim. 1:2-3 – Paul calls Timothy his true “child” in the faith and his son.

Titus 1:4 – Paul calls Titus his true “child” in a common faith. Priests are our spiritual fathers in the family of God.

Philemon 10 – Paul says he has become the “father” of Onesimus.

Heb. 12:7,9 – emphasizes our earthly “fathers.” But these are not just biological but also spiritual (the priests of the Church).

1 Peter 5:13 – Peter refers to himself as father by calling Mark his “son.”

1 John 2:1,1 John 2:13,14 – John calls the elders of the Church “fathers.”

Fashioning scripture into weapons to attack Catholics is a form of witchcraft, IMO. The Bible never does that. It's automatic with anti-Catholics.
 
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Curtis

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Call no man father

Typical fundamentalist misunderstandings!

Matt 23:9
Call no man Father?

Is this an absolute requirement?
Or is Our Savior condemning pride and spiritual pride of the Pharisees?

God calls men father!

Ex 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Jesus calls men father!

Jn 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

Mary calls men father!

Lk 1:55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

Peter calls men father!

Acts3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

The stephen calls men father!

Acts 7 Stephen quotes the fathers over and over!

The Bible calls men father!

Luke 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.



Then there is spiritual fathers!

Spiritual Fathers have care for our souls!

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Jn 21:17 feed my sheep:

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they care for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

1 Tim 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you

1 John 2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

That makes Peter, Paul and John spiritual fathers, pastors of our souls!

Isa 22 the administrator of the kingdom is called father, so the same for Peter, the apostles, and their successors!

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, so send in you. (The apostles) posses the same power mission and authority as Christ!
Peter, the apostles and their successors!

Jesus didn’t say to call NO man a father.

Jesus clearly and unequivocally said to call no priest master, rabbi, OR FATHER as a religious title.

Paul used an analogy of being a father, but never said to call him father Paul as a title.
 

Illuminator

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Jesus didn’t say to call NO man a father.
Jesus clearly and unequivocally said to call no priest master, rabbi, OR FATHER as a religious title.
And you still fail to see why.
Paul used an analogy of being a father, but never said to call him father Paul as a title.
Analogies don't count??? Is Paul and John wrong? Paul doesn't have to spell out every authentic practice, and every authentic practice must be found in scripture IS NOT IN SCRIPTURE! It's a man made tradition.

The "call no man father" has been turned into a stupid canard to attack/insult Catholics based on a near sighted, literal approach to one verse. Jesus is using a literary device called "hyperbole", (exaggerating to make a point) as He does in other parts of the Bible. "...if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off..."if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out..." Why don't we see more one-armed cyclop Christians? Strict literal interpretation for selected verses to support hill-billy theology is dangerous, and an abuse of the written Word of God.

This is what strict literal interpretation leads to:

R965092d6f9dcbc34dd6a410150ac92cd
 
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FHII

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In this verse, Jesus was discouraging His followers from elevating the scribes and Pharisees to the titles of “fathers” and “rabbis” because they were hypocrites. Jesus warns us not to elevate anyone to the level of our heavenly Father.
Yes, they were hypocrites, but as you pointed out, Jesus warns us not to elevate "anyone" (not just hypocrites) to the level of our heavenly Father. Actually, that's not what he said. He said call no man Father. He didn't say don't call them Father if they are hypocrites.

If you want to say I am imposing my view on this passage without considering its context: fine, but I will challenge you on that and ask you if you are doing the same. By no means am I trying to provoke an argument, but I see the context in my favor.

"Father" is a biblical title we give to our priests, it does not mean we call them "God" with that title
Fully understood! But that's not what Jesus said. Again, he said call no man Father.

Furthermore, as much as this is going to shock a lot of people on both sides of the issue, there is more support to refer to a minister or preacher a god (little "g") than there is to refer to them as a spiritual father. See John 10:34-35. No, I am not saying to call a preacher "god", but that verse is there...

Matt. 23:8 – in this teaching, Jesus also says not to call anyone teacher or rabbi as well. But don’t Protestants call their teachers “teacher?” What about this commandment of Jesus? When Protestants say “call no man father,” they must also argue that we cannot call any man teacher either. This is absurd.
No, its not. I think we agree that it is permissable to call you biological dad your father, as well as forefathers like Abraham. Jesus was saying don't call them that in a spiritual sense.

Now, lets look at the verse:

Matthew 23:8 KJV
But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

You don't even need Strong's to get a definition because Jesus gave it: Master. Now, yes down the line you can tie "master" to "teacher" but its pretty far removed. Compare Matthew 23:8 to Ephesians 4:11.... The original Greek word for rabbi and teacher is not the same although both can be translated into English as "master". They are not, however, the same thing.

Now, the rest of the verses you gave I have already addressed. It is permissable to call elders fathers as they are forefathers. Just because an Apotle called someone "son" or "my children" does not make them a spiritual Father... They are simply a messenger. They begat or more properly, brought them forth through what God said. That doesn't make them a father.

Furthermore, I have said this before... You cnnot use one verse in the Bible to justify breaking another verse.
 

theefaith

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The fact remains women cannot be a priest cos they cannot be a father!

not a matter of equality, all are one in Christ so don’t go there
 

Illuminator

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Yes, they were hypocrites, but as you pointed out, Jesus warns us not to elevate "anyone" (not just hypocrites) to the level of our heavenly Father. Actually, that's not what he said. He said call no man Father. He didn't say don't call them Father if they are hypocrites.

If you want to say I am imposing my view on this passage without considering its context: fine, but I will challenge you on that and ask you if you are doing the same. By no means am I trying to provoke an argument, but I see the context in my favor.
You confuse literalism with context.
Fully understood! But that's not what Jesus said. Again, he said call no man Father.

Furthermore, as much as this is going to shock a lot of people on both sides of the issue, there is more support to refer to a minister or preacher a god (little "g") than there is to refer to them as a spiritual father. See John 10:34-35. No, I am not saying to call a preacher "god", but that verse is there...

No, its not. I think we agree that it is permissable to call you biological dad your father, as well as forefathers like Abraham. Jesus was saying don't call them that in a spiritual sense.
Christian fathers have a duty to be a
spiritual father to their children.
Now, lets look at the verse:

Matthew 23:8 KJV
But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

You don't even need Strong's to get a definition because Jesus gave it: Master. Now, yes down the line you can tie "master" to "teacher" but its pretty far removed. Compare Matthew 23:8 to Ephesians 4:11.... The original Greek word for rabbi and teacher is not the same although both can be translated into English as "master". They are not, however, the same thing.

Now, the rest of the verses you gave I have already addressed. It is permissable to call elders fathers as they are forefathers. Just because an Apotle called someone "son" or "my children" does not make them a spiritual Father... They are simply a messenger.
Where does it say that?
They begat or more properly, brought them forth through what God said. That doesn't make them a father.
Then Father Abraham (Genesis 17:4-5) wasn't a father either.
Furthermore, I have said this before... You cnnot use one verse in the Bible to justify breaking another verse.
I used about 20 harmonious verses that you claim you have addressed, which you have not, and you are playing word games to justify a false interpretation. How can Jesus be cancelling priests to be called fathers when He hadn't yet instituted the priesthood? There were no Christian priests at the time. The "call no man father" has been turned into a stupid canard with no basis in reality. Perhaps the real problem is you don't view your preachers and pastors as spiritual fathers contrary to scripture. See post #81.
Try reading the rest of Matthew 23. The whole chapter is Jesus excoriating the scribes and Pharisees, not future priests that didn't even exist at the time.
Perhaps the "call no man father" crowd should stop using "Reverend" as a title. That would be equally stupid.
 
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Curtis

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And you still fail to see why.
Analogies don't count??? Is Paul and John wrong? Paul doesn't have to spell out every authentic practice, and every authentic practice must be found in scripture IS NOT IN SCRIPTURE! It's a man made tradition.

The "call no man father" has been turned into a stupid canard to attack/insult Catholics based on a near sighted, literal approach to one verse. Jesus is using a literary device called "hyperbole", (exaggerating to make a point) as He does in other parts of the Bible. "...if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off..."if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out..." Why don't we see more one-armed cyclop Christians? Strict literal interpretation for selected verses to support hill-billy theology is dangerous, and an abuse of the written Word of God.

This is what strict literal interpretation leads to:

R965092d6f9dcbc34dd6a410150ac92cd

Correct, a one time analogy of being a father, is not an assignation of the title of father Paul.

Jesus said why we aren’t to call any priest master, rabbi or father:

Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

The snake handling is irrelevant, because they are ignoring the fact that Jesus said in our same bible, that we are NOT to test God by trying to make God fulfill a scriptural promise of protection, such as protecting those in service to God from snake bite poison, or Satan telling Jesus to jump off a cliff to fulfill the 91st Psalm promise for angelic protection
 

Illuminator

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Correct, a one time analogy of being a father, is not an assignation of the title of father Paul.

Jesus said why we aren’t to call any priest master, rabbi or father:

Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

You can't see the forest for the trees. Calling priests "father" does not make a priest Rabbi, Teacher, Master. We are not to elevate anyone to those positions. That is what Jesus means. When Catholics call priests "father", in no way does it mean the One Rabbi, the One Teacher, the One Master, only biblical illiterates think otherwise.
The snake handling is irrelevant, because they are ignoring the fact that Jesus said in our same bible, that we are NOT to test God by trying to make God fulfill a scriptural promise of protection, such as protecting those in service to God from snake bite poison, or Satan telling Jesus to jump off a cliff to fulfill the 91st Psalm promise for angelic protection
It's relevant to a faulty literal interpretation of one verse used as a bat to beat Catholics with. Calling our priests "father" does not transgress what Jesus meant IN CONTEXT, it is a thoroughly biblical practice. A strict literal interpretation of Matthew 23 does violence to scripture and all of Christian history.
You guys always demand scripture, scripture, scripture, and when I give you scripture, scripture, scripture (post #81) you fall back on the same stupid fundamentalist canard.
 

FHII

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You confuse literalism with context.
No, I don't, and if you are going to make that charge you should defend it.

Christian fathers have a duty to be a
spiritual father to their children.
No, they don't. They are supposed to point them to Christ. More specifically, they are supposed to bring them to Christ's spokesman and ambassador. In other words, they are a schoolmaster bringing them to school- the Church.

I used about 20 verses that you claim you have addressed, which you have not, and you are playing word games to justify a false interpretation
Bullpucky Illuminator! First off, I directly addressed several of your verses. The ones I didn't address directly to you have already been brought up by others and I addressed those verses when they brought them up. Now, I can kind of understand that because when a thread gets long, its hard to search all the history. But yes, I have discussed them before. If you need me to repeat my discussion its a fair request. But don't tell me I haven't discussed them: ignorance of my discussion is not an excuse.

To be fair and honest, there may be one or two new verses you brought up, but they are no different than the other verses. An answer was given and its the same even if its a different verse.

Even so, yes I did answer but in a broad way. If you are speaking of daddys or forefathers, its permissable. That covers a large portion of your references. Calling someone my son or my children is NOT saying I am your spiritual Father. I have explained wgat begat means... It means to bring forth. It doesn't mean Father. They are messengers or ambassadors FOR the Father. That is such a simple concept to understand that it really doesn't need an explanation or example.

Now you think I am playing "word games"? Ok... Jesus said, " call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." Here's my interpretation of that verse: " call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." Now what's your interpretation and who is playing "word games"?

Is that a false interpretation? Shall we do it again? I think since I quoted the verse verbatim its an accurate interpretation. Now, what's your interpretation? Is is in the category of "let me tell you why the Bible doesn't mean what it says?"
How can Jesus be cancelling priests to be called fathers when He hadn't yet instituted the priesthood? There were no Christian priests at the time.

What? There where no priests before then? Oh, no "Christian Priests"! I can go a lot of directions with that!

1. Yes their was. Jesus was the high priest of our profession. Noted several times in the book of Hebrews.
2. Well, if you want to discount Hebrews, he never instituted priests after his ministry. He calked Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers... There are also bishops, deacons, ministers, ambassadors, messengers, helps and watchmen. I can even make a case for gods and angels. I don't ever see where he called fathers or priests. He was the high priest... But he never called another. Popes and cardinals also are folks he never called. Just saying...
3. Is not Jesus the same yesterday, today and forever? Were their not Priests in the OT? So yes, priesthood was already instituted. If anything, he ended it.if you read Hebdews 10, you will understand. The High Priest of our profession made the last sacrifice that was needed.

Jesus eliminated the Priesthood. He never instituted a new priesthood unless you want to talk about the fact that we are called to be kings and priests... And if you want to do that, where are your kings in your hierachy? Is everyone in the hierarchy a king? A priest? There are several thoughts on your statement. I don't believe you can answer them convincinly.uw
The "call no man father" has been turned into a stupid canard with no basis in reality. Perhaps the real problem is you don't view your preachers and pastors as spiritual fathers contrary to scripture. See post #81
Well Jesus said it... I have one person saying context doesn't matter and that everything in the Bible is a generalization, and now I have someone calling the words of Jesus, "stupid canard".

Pretty scary.
 

Illuminator

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Many Protestants claim that when Catholics address priests as “father,” they are engaging in an unbiblical practice that Jesus forbade: “Call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven” (Matt. 23:9).

How should Catholics respond?

The Answer
To understand why the charge does not work, one must first understand the use of the word “father” in reference to our earthly fathers. No one would deny a little girl the opportunity to tell someone that she loves her father. Common sense tells us that Jesus wasn’t forbidding this type of use of the word “father.”

In fact, to forbid it would rob the address “Father” of its meaning when applied to God, for there would no longer be any earthly counterpart for the analogy of divine Fatherhood. The concept of God’s role as Father would be meaningless if we obliterated the concept of earthly fatherhood.

But in the Bible the concept of fatherhood is not restricted to just our earthly fathers and God. It is used to refer to people other than biological or legal fathers, and is used as a sign of respect to those with whom we have a special relationship.

For example, Joseph tells his brothers of a special fatherly relationship God had given him with the king of Egypt: “So it was not you who sent me here, but God; and he has made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house and ruler over all the land of Egypt” (Gen. 45:8).

Job indicates he played a fatherly role with the less fortunate: “I was a father to the poor, and I searched out the cause of him whom I did not know” (Job 29:16). And God himself declares that he will give a fatherly role to Eliakim, the steward of the house of David: “In that day I will call my servant Eliakim, the son of Hilkiah . . . and I will clothe him with [a] robe, and will bind [a] girdle on him, and will commit . . . authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah” (Isa. 22:20–21).

This type of fatherhood applies not only to those who are wise counselors (like Joseph) or benefactors (like Job) or both (like Eliakim); it also applies to those who have a fatherly spiritual relationship with one. For example, Elisha cries, “My father, my father!” to Elijah as the latter is carried up to heaven in a whirlwind (2 Kgs. 2:12). Later, Elisha himself is called a father by the king of Israel (2 Kgs. 6:21).

A Change with the New Testament?
Some Protestants argue that this usage changed with the New Testament—that while it may have been permissible to call certain men “father” in the Old Testament, since the time of Christ, it’s no longer allowed. This argument fails for several reasons.

First, as we’ve seen, the imperative “call no man father” does not apply to one’s biological father. It also doesn’t exclude calling one’s ancestors “father,” as is shown in Acts 7:2, where Stephen refers to “our father Abraham,” or in Romans 9:10, where Paul speaks of “our father Isaac.”

Second, there are numerous examples in the New Testament of the term “father” being used as a form of address and reference, even for men who are not biologically related to the speaker. There are, in fact, so many uses of “father” in the New Testament, that the objection to Catholics calling priests “father” must be wrong, as we shall see.

Third, a careful examination of the context of Matthew 23 shows that Jesus didn’t intend for his words here to be understood literally. The whole passage reads, “But you are not to be called ‘rabbi,’ for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called ‘masters,’ for you have one master, the Christ” (Matt. 23:8–10).

The first problem is that although Jesus seems to prohibit the use of the term “teacher,” in Matthew 28:19–20, Christ himself appointed certain men to be teachers in his Church: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations . . . teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.” Paul speaks of his commission as a teacher: “For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle . . . a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth” (1 Tim. 2:7); “For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher” (2 Tim. 1:11). He also reminds us that the Church has an office of teacher: “God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers” (1 Cor. 12:28); and “his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers” (Eph. 4:11). There is no doubt that Paul was not violating Christ’s teaching in Matthew 23 by referring so often to others as “teachers.”

Fundamentalists themselves slip up on this point by calling all sorts of people “doctor”; for example, professors and scientists who have Ph.D. degrees (i.e., doctorates). What they fail to realize is that “doctor” is simply the Latin word for “teacher.” Even “Mister” and “Mistress” (“Mrs.”) are forms of the word “master,” also mentioned by Jesus. So if his words in Matthew 23 were meant to be taken literally, Fundamentalists would be just as guilty for using the word “teacher” and “doctor” and “mister” as Catholics for saying “father.” But clearly, that would be a misunderstanding of Christ’s words.

So What Did Jesus Mean?
Jesus criticized Jewish leaders who love “the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues, and salutations in the market places, and being called ‘rabbi’ by men” (Matt. 23:6–7). He was using hyperbole (exaggeration) to show the scribes and Pharisees how sinful and proud they were for not looking humbly to God as the source of all authority and fatherhood and teaching, and instead setting themselves up as the ultimate authorities, father figures, and teachers.
 

Illuminator

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Christ used hyperbole often, for example when he declared, “If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell” (Matt. 5:29, cf. 18:9; Mark 9:47). Christ certainly did not intend this to be applied literally, for otherwise all Christians would be blind amputees! (cf. 1 John 1:8; 1 Tim. 1:15).

Jesus is not forbidding us to call men “fathers” who actually are such—either literally or spiritually. He is warning people against inaccurately attributing fatherhood—or a particular kind or degree of fatherhood—to those who do not have it.

As the apostolic example shows, some individuals genuinely do have a spiritual fatherhood, meaning that they can be referred to as spiritual fathers. What must not be done is to confuse their form of spiritual paternity with that of God. Ultimately, God is our supreme protector, provider, and instructor. Correspondingly, it is wrong to view any individual other than God as having these roles.

Throughout the world, some people have been tempted to look upon religious leaders who are mere mortals as if they were an individual’s supreme source of spiritual instruction, nourishment, and protection. The tendency to turn mere men into “gurus” is worldwide.

This was also a temptation in the Jewish world of Jesus’ day, when famous rabbinical leaders, especially those who founded important schools, such as Hillel and Shammai, were highly exalted by their disciples. It is this elevation of an individual man—the formation of a “cult of personality” around him—of which Jesus is speaking when he warns against attributing to someone an undue role as master, father, or teacher.

He is not forbidding the perfunctory use of honorifics nor forbidding us to recognize that the person does have a role as a spiritual father and teacher. The example of his own apostles shows us that.
 

Illuminator

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The Apostles Show the Way
The New Testament is filled with examples of and references to spiritual father-son and father-child relationships. It is worth quoting some of them here.

Paul regularly referred to Timothy as his child: “Therefore I sent to you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ” (1 Cor. 4:17); “To Timothy, my true child in the faith: grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord” (1 Tim. 1:2); “To Timothy, my beloved child: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord” (2 Tim. 1:2).

He also referred to Timothy as his son: “This charge I commit to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophetic utterances which pointed to you, that inspired by them you may wage the good warfare” (1 Tim 1:18); “You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus” (2 Tim. 2:1); “But Timothy’s worth you know, how as a son with a father he has served with me in the gospel” (Phil. 2:22).

Paul also referred to other of his converts in this way: “To Titus, my true child in a common faith: grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior” (Titus 1:4); “I appeal to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I have become in my imprisonment” (Philem. 10). None of these men were Paul’s literal sons. Rather, Paul is emphasizing his spiritual fatherhood with them.

Spiritual Fatherhood
Perhaps the most pointed New Testament reference to the theology of the spiritual fatherhood of priests is Paul’s statement, “I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel” (1 Cor. 4:14–15).

Peter followed the same custom, referring to Mark as his son: “She who is at Babylon, who is likewise chosen, sends you greetings; and so does my son Mark” (1 Pet. 5:13). The apostles sometimes referred to entire churches under their care as their children. Paul writes, “Here for the third time I am ready to come to you. And I will not be a burden, for I seek not what is yours but you; for children ought not to lay up for their parents, but parents for their children” (2 Cor. 12:14); and, “My little children, with whom I am again in travail until Christ be formed in you!” (Gal. 4:19).

John said, “My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous” (1 John 2:1); “No greater joy can I have than this, to hear that my children follow the truth” (3 John 4). In fact, John also addresses men in his congregations as “fathers” (1 John 2:13–14).

By referring to these people as their spiritual sons and spiritual children, Peter, Paul, and John imply their own roles as spiritual fathers. Since the Bible frequently speaks of this spiritual fatherhood, we Catholics acknowledge it and follow the custom of the apostles by calling priests “father.” Failure to acknowledge this is a failure to recognize and honor a great gift God has bestowed on the Church: the spiritual fatherhood of the priesthood.

Call No Man "Father"? | Catholic Answers
 

BreadOfLife

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Jesus didn’t say to call NO man a father.
Jesus clearly and unequivocally said to call no priest master, rabbi, OR FATHER as a religious title.
Paul used an analogy of being a father, but never said to call him father Paul as a title.
Nuthin' like a nice juicy rationalization to end your day.
Unfortunately for YOU, this is absolute nonsense. - and here's why . . .

For this to be true - BOTH Paul and Jesus would have to rescind their words for calling Abraham and Isaac, "Father" (John 8:56, Rom. 9:10).
You would ALSO have to forbid calling anybody "Teacher" because that's what Jesus said in the verse that precedes Matt. 23:9.

Ummmm, aren't we told in 1 Cor. 12:28 -
And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third TEACHERS, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.

Yikes!! There's that "forbidden" word - or IS it?
AGAIN, just as in Matt. 23:8-9, where He is talking about the word "Father" - Jesus tells the crowd not to consider anybody a Teacher or Father ABOVE our Teacher and Father in Heaven.

NOTHING you can say and NO Scriptural acrobatic you can perform can strip these verses from their original context - no matter HOW much you hate the Catholic Church . . .
 
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goodserverity

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The Roman Catholic perspective of giving FATHER " TITLE " to a man

this is no different than giving MOTHER " TITLE " to Mary Mother of Jesus

You notice, Roman Catholics also do the same with the Nuns A MOTHER " TITLE " to the mother superior
a higher order ranking within the Nuns.

This is nothing by blasphemy - truly - too nonsensical and foolish to even be considered blasphemy - it has no meaning and no application.

Paul and his ministry was specifically to bring salvation to new believers to bring SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF God.

NOT TO BRING MOTHERS AND FATHERS OF GOD.

GOD DOES NOT NOT HAVE A MOTHER or a FATHER
NEW BELIEVERS - are called Sons and Daughters.


THIS WAS THE REASON THAT PAUL WOULD SAY - that new believers were HIS SON IN THE LORD.

Because he had been a part of the birthing and begetting of the new SONS of God who were now believers and now - sons of God.

In the Bible, NEVER did any of the Apostles, Disciples or Servants of God address one another as SPIRITUAL FATHER and SPIRITUAL MOTHER based upon a spiritual relationship in CONNECTION WITH THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD.

THERE WERE NO FATHERS, and MOTHERS SPIRITUALLY - between the believer and God - to the point that a " TITLE " was given to men and women of God that were indicating that their official title to all beneath them = was giving them a title, to be addressed as father and mother.

There were PERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS where Paul had made a personal connection with new believers and built a personal relationship with them in the Lord.

In his emotional bond Paul became emotionally attached to feel that he was literally a Father to these new beievers, Paul had an emotional feeling

We can step out of the perverted Roman Catholic perspective and see that SONS OF GOD are being born to God and Paul is referring to these believers as SONS OF GOD.

THE TRINITARIANS ADD AND PERVERT SOME OF THESE PASSAGES - such as in Phm 1: 10

: 10 I beseech Thee concerning me a son that I bore in my bonds onesimon

HERE - in the manuscripts - it simply says - a son that I bore in my bond

THE TRINITARIAN TRANSLATORS ADD IN - the word " MY " son - there is no word " MY " in the manuscripts....... The Catholic Church added this into their Translation.

Again - in 1Ti 1: 2


1Ti 1: 2 Timothy a genuine child in faith grace of mercy peace from God our father and Jesus Christ Our Lord.

AGAIN - THE TRINITARIAN TRANSLATORS ADD IN - the word " MY " son - there is no word " MY " in the manuscripts....... The Catholic Church added this into their Translation in 1Ti 1: 2

Most of these passages that Catholics will present have been changed and have added the word '" MY " into the Translation.

If you look at the context - Paul is only referring to these new believers mainly as SONS IN THE LORD
NEW BORN BEGOTTEN SONS OF GOD WHO HAVE RECEIVED THE GOSPEL AND HAVE BEEN BORN AGAIN.

genuine child in faith grace of mercy peace from God our father and Jesus Christ Our Lord.

There were instances where Paul admits that he feels as though he is a Father and has a son with him in the proclaiming of the gospel - and that these new believers are close to him and he feels that they are his literal sons.

But - There are no TITLES Fathers and Mothers that are born again.

A literal father with sons and daughters - and a literal mother with sons and daughters - these literal fathers and mothers would be new born sons and daughters in the Lord,

The Bible does not make Fathers and Mothers OF GOD.

Roman Catholics attempt to add to the Bible and literally add THE SPIRITUAL ROLE OF ADDITIONAL FATHERS WHO ARE SIMILAR TO GOD's ROLE AS A FATHER in taking confessions and seeking atonements and graces forgiveness from men - they give the spiritual title - as fathers.

The Bible makes this very clear.

1Co_4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Paul is saying that - the new believers are sons of God in the Lord and that he emotionally feels that they are his sons too.

But he does not instruct them to give him a title as Father.

Roman Catholics simply have no manuscripts for their faith.
 

Waiting on him

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Right. Context isn't important. Sure.

So sad you don't apply that to Matthew 23:9. All of a sudden, comtext (even when it doesn't exist) is important.

What do you do with that verse, by the way?
Luke 20:46 KJV
[46] Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts;
 

theefaith

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The Roman Catholic perspective of giving FATHER " TITLE " to a man

this is no different than giving MOTHER " TITLE " to Mary Mother of Jesus

You notice, Roman Catholics also do the same with the Nuns A MOTHER " TITLE " to the mother superior
a higher order ranking within the Nuns.

This is nothing by blasphemy - truly - too nonsensical and foolish to even be considered blasphemy - it has no meaning and no application.

Paul and his ministry was specifically to bring salvation to new believers to bring SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF God.

NOT TO BRING MOTHERS AND FATHERS OF GOD.

GOD DOES NOT NOT HAVE A MOTHER or a FATHER
NEW BELIEVERS - are called Sons and Daughters.


THIS WAS THE REASON THAT PAUL WOULD SAY - that new believers were HIS SON IN THE LORD.

Because he had been a part of the birthing and begetting of the new SONS of God who were now believers and now - sons of God.

In the Bible, NEVER did any of the Apostles, Disciples or Servants of God address one another as SPIRITUAL FATHER and SPIRITUAL MOTHER based upon a spiritual relationship in CONNECTION WITH THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD.

THERE WERE NO FATHERS, and MOTHERS SPIRITUALLY - between the believer and God - to the point that a " TITLE " was given to men and women of God that were indicating that their official title to all beneath them = was giving them a title, to be addressed as father and mother.

There were PERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS where Paul had made a personal connection with new believers and built a personal relationship with them in the Lord.

In his emotional bond Paul became emotionally attached to feel that he was literally a Father to these new beievers, Paul had an emotional feeling

We can step out of the perverted Roman Catholic perspective and see that SONS OF GOD are being born to God and Paul is referring to these believers as SONS OF GOD.

THE TRINITARIANS ADD AND PERVERT SOME OF THESE PASSAGES - such as in Phm 1: 10

: 10 I beseech Thee concerning me a son that I bore in my bonds onesimon

HERE - in the manuscripts - it simply says - a son that I bore in my bond

THE TRINITARIAN TRANSLATORS ADD IN - the word " MY " son - there is no word " MY " in the manuscripts....... The Catholic Church added this into their Translation.

Again - in 1Ti 1: 2


1Ti 1: 2 Timothy a genuine child in faith grace of mercy peace from God our father and Jesus Christ Our Lord.

AGAIN - THE TRINITARIAN TRANSLATORS ADD IN - the word " MY " son - there is no word " MY " in the manuscripts....... The Catholic Church added this into their Translation in 1Ti 1: 2

Most of these passages that Catholics will present have been changed and have added the word '" MY " into the Translation.

If you look at the context - Paul is only referring to these new believers mainly as SONS IN THE LORD
NEW BORN BEGOTTEN SONS OF GOD WHO HAVE RECEIVED THE GOSPEL AND HAVE BEEN BORN AGAIN.

genuine child in faith grace of mercy peace from God our father and Jesus Christ Our Lord.

There were instances where Paul admits that he feels as though he is a Father and has a son with him in the proclaiming of the gospel - and that these new believers are close to him and he feels that they are his literal sons.

But - There are no TITLES Fathers and Mothers that are born again.

A literal father with sons and daughters - and a literal mother with sons and daughters - these literal fathers and mothers would be new born sons and daughters in the Lord,

The Bible does not make Fathers and Mothers OF GOD.

Roman Catholics attempt to add to the Bible and literally add THE SPIRITUAL ROLE OF ADDITIONAL FATHERS WHO ARE SIMILAR TO GOD's ROLE AS A FATHER in taking confessions and seeking atonements and graces forgiveness from men - they give the spiritual title - as fathers.

The Bible makes this very clear.

1Co_4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Paul is saying that - the new believers are sons of God in the Lord and that he emotionally feels that they are his sons too.

But he does not instruct them to give him a title as Father.

Roman Catholics simply have no manuscripts for their faith.

Isa 22/21-22 Peter is the prime minister holding the keys of the kingdom Matt 16:18 and is called father

Lk 1:43 mother of God
Not mother of divinity or source of God
But mother of Jesus Christ who is God

Isa 7:14 perpetual Virgin

Lk 1:49 immaculate conception of Mary and the miraculous conception of Jesus

A good tree!

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

The fruit of the tree of Mary is our salvation! Lk 2:30 Jesus is our salvation!
Lk 1:30 Mary found our salvation!

Mother of Divine Grace!

Hebrews 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

The throne of Grace is the throne of Mary the ever Virgin mother of God!

We come boldly to this throne cause Mary is our mother and advocate!

Mary is the storehouse of divine graces!

Lk 1:28
And the angel entered to her, and said, Hail Mary, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed be thou among women.


Salvation is to be found with Mary!
Jesus Christ is our salvation! Lk 2:30
He is Lord, and He is with Mary! Lk 1:28
Mary found our salvation! Lk 1:30
Consented to our salvation! Lk 1:38
 

goodserverity

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just because that Jesus is the King of the Earth, this does not automatically transform “ MARY “ his earthly mother into the Queen of heaven.


This is true - but - In fact, the Bible never labels Jesus as the King Of Heaven

IN FACT There is NO SUCH AN IDEA anywhere in the Bible - as a King Of Heaven.

Heaven has no king. there is no King in heaven.

Jesus is the one God of the heavens - existing as the earth as the word by which God spoke that created the heavens and earth, that was manifested in flesh,
conceived by the Holy Spirit.

The Bible describes Jesus as “ KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS “ but this is only referring to the Kings and Lords upon the earth. Jesus is King of the Jews and King over all Kings upon the earth.

There is no mentioning in the Bible concerning a King of heaven. There are no plural KINGS and plural LORDS in heaven.

This ideology, that pretends and falsifies that Mother Mary is king of heaven - this is set up in the Catholic mind as a parallel conjunction - to the Trinity Doctrine that falsifies the scripture, inserting a trinity doctrine.

In the mind of the Catholic, there is a hierarchy in heaven that invents God as a Trinity as three separate Co Equal - separate Co Eternal persons - and Mother Mary is added as a byproduct of the Trinity, or as consequence of the Trinity doctrine with a heavenly hierarchy.

If the Bible does not consider importance to describing God or Jesus as KING OF HEAVEN in the entire Bible - why should we make reference to Mother Mary as Queen Of Heaven ?

This has no consequence nor importance to God - to label himself or anyone as KING, PRINCE or QUEEN Of Heaven.

We find that Roman Catholic teaching and ideology are not based upon what the Bible narrative tells us.

the Bible says, concerning Mary - that Her virginity was not what she was planning -

Mary was planning sex, planning a marriage, planning to have sex and planning to marry a man.

How can one hold to a tradition where Catholics and Muslims only focus in on - tiny phrases and partial sentences and selected words to attempt to change, ignore the true message and meanings, in order to re- write and over - ride and downplay the rest of the actual message storyline throughout the entire Bible.

Mary was planning, plotting wanting sex and Joseph was planning marriage and sex too. And Joseph was instructed to not be afraid to get married and

in other words, Joseph was planning on putting away his fiance and putting off the marriage - Joseph was worried and hurt because in his mind - mary had already had sex with someone and in the mind of Joseph, Mary had cheated and had sex behind his back, Mary had cheated on him and committed adultery and fornicated and now was suddenly pregnant.

Joseph was hurt, worried and even in fear and anxiety - His new wife was adulterous and had committed adultery against him and against God.

But the Angel of God knew exactly what Joseph was feeling and planning and the Angel told him DO NOT FEAR getting married and having SEXUAL RELATIONS because there was no sexual act between Mary and another man beside him, the child conceived in His new { to be } wife was from the Holy Spirit.

The Bible explains that Joseph did not know Mary sexually UNTIL after - that Mary had borne Her firstborn son.

How is it that Roman Catholics completely ignore so many facts in the Bible?

The Bible makes it clear - Joseph and Mary were plotting, planning and preparing to get married and
 

goodserverity

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Remember - Joseph was fearful /afraid to take Mary as a wife because she was already pregnant.

Joseph and Mary were not planning to abstain from sex . Mary was not GUARDING HER VIRGINITY.

are we supposed to believe that Joseph was marrying " Mary " SIMPLY FOR THE CHANCE TO HAVE SEX WITH HER. In other words having sex and being intimate - was not what Mary had purposed in her mind for her purpose in getting married. ? ? ? ?

IT WAS JOSEPH ALONE - who was planning to have sexual relations in the upcoming marriage. ? and he was going to marry a woman who was really secretly planning to GUARD AND PRESERVE her virginity and abstain from sex for her lifetime ?

They both were worried about their sexual relationship and marriage and sexual future because Mary's sexuality and pregnancy was a very important matter in the relationship because Joseph thought she was already pregnant with someone else’ s baby and had lied about the sexual activity.

Joseph was upset and afraid, - He was planning on putting her away and terminating the marriage. - THIS IS THE ENTIRE POINT of the message of The Angel telling Joseph DO NOT FEAR getting married and TAKING MARY - as a wife. FOR SEXUAL RELATIONS.

Why have the Roman Catholic and Islamic Mosques - simply added these false things and untruths directly upon the Biblical narrative and have they completely changed the focal and central message of God’ s word - as they focus in one a tiny fraction of the story and ELEVATE and EXAGGERATE and MAGNIFY only a tiny portion or phrase, while they totally ignore the real reason that Mary was Chosen. The Angel never mentioned Mary's virginity as important, to her being chosen........... Mary was planning sex. And the Angel Commanded Joseph to " not be afraid - to go ahead with the Marriage plan " Take Mary in sex as a wife. DONT BE AFRAID.

Why not tell the real - full story of the Bible as the Angel and Holy spirit told it ?

Can You understand why Non-Catholics and Non-Muslims wonder why that - everything that Catholics and Muslims believe - must be lifted, out of context, and exaggerated and twisted manipulated selected portions out of the Bible as a totally radically and the altered storyline is added - that is all tradition, imagination " made up, after the fact - stories " - ( NEW PROPHECY AND NEW REVELATIONS ) while they totally ignore and dismiss and literally - deny - or downplay - the original meaning and content and the entire rest of the Bible message ?

Does the real story have no part of the Catholislamic faith.

The Quran also says that Mary was Guarding Her Virginity - BUT WE FIND that Mary was not concerned with guarding anything concerning virginity. Nor was the Angel concerned about Joseph having sexual intimacy with his wife. The Angel told Joseph to not be afraid about the pregnancy - and to take mary as his wife. LITERALLY - CONCERNING SEX AND BEING PREGNANT AND THE FUTURE OF SEXUAL MATTERS.

In fact
There is nothing biblical nor realistic about the Catholic faith concerning the perpetual virginity of Mary.

for if not having sex will make an individual potentially closer to God - as Roman Catholics believe, this did not help Adam and Eve who were not even born from a sexual conception.

Both Adam and Eve were neither born from a sexual act. They were created and given life and there was no sex involved in their creation.

instead of - Immaculate Conception - Adam and Eve were Immaculately Created.

Yet even though Adam and Eve both had never had sex and they were not born or created from a sexual act _ this did not help them or prevent them from committing sin. this did nothing for them.

Don't you think that it is foolishness, to place such paganistic focus upon the idea of perpetual lifetime virginity ? This is what the Pagan World focused upon - this focusing upon the importance of lifetime celibacy. But this has no value in the Bible. Especially when the Bible explicitly describes that Mary did not have sexual relations with her husband until after her firstborn son was born.

And especially when the Bible explains that the Angel Of God commanded Joseph to not be fearful about Mary being pregnant and to go ahead and take Mary as a wife - and have her as a wife, because she had not been impregnated by a sexual act. This entire concept absolutely has no value or meaning in the Bible.

Yet, even though Adam and Eve both had never had sex and they were not born or created from a sexual act _ this did not help them or prevent them from committing sin. this did nothing for them.
 

theefaith

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[/QUOTE]

Really?

matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

you can sacrifice a lower good like sex for a higher good like bringing salvation to all men!
Lk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
She knew (betrothed) to Joseph I know (sex) not a man

The Bible never says anyone is a biological child of Mary accept for Jesus Christ!

And the Bible says Her child is holy! And Her child is God!

Is 7:14 God provides a sign, a Virgin shall conceive and bear a son! (Singular, one son)

Ezekiel 44:2 “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.”

Song of Solomon 4:12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.

(Mary had become the dwelling place of the Almighty, like the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Mary was a vessel consecrated to God alone?)

Matt 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
(The Bible says only the Holy Ghost conceived in Mary)

Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
(A son singular) (does James save his people?)

Lk 1:28 Hail Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with thee!

Blessed art thou amongst all women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
(The fruit of Her womb is blessed and holy)

Lk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
(A son, singular)

Lk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
(This verse imply’s a vow of perpetual virginity, She refuses even the exalted dignity of mother of God and mother of our savior if it means violating Her vow of perpetual virginity)

Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
(Her son is God)

Matt 1:25 He knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

2 Samuel 6:23 tells us: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child UNTIL the day of her death.

Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?

Until only states that they had no relation up to that point, the Bible does not say they had sex ever, before or after that point!

First born does not imply a second born. An only child is still first born!

The Bible says Joseph a just and therefore a chaste man, it does not say he has gone into Mary where the Holy Spirit has conceived, 2 Sam 12:24 And David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bare a son, and he called his name Solomon: and the Lord loved him. Never says this about a Joseph, for He was full of fear and reverence for Her immaculate purity and holiness!



Brothers and sisters of Jesus?

They are not the children of Mary!

Is 7:14 a virgin shall conceive and bear a son!
(One son, singular)

James is the son of zebedee, and the other James is the son of Alpheus not Joseph!
Matt 10:2-3

In Hebrew culture any close relative can be called brother or sister, lot was called Abraham’s brother but was his nephew.

Gen 12:5 and Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son..

Gen 13:8 And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdsmen and thy herdsmen; for we are Brothers.

The 12 sons of Jacob are brothers but all are not the children of Leah and all are not the children of Rachel! They had 4 mother’s, These may be brothers but they are simply not the children of One mother and the brothers of Jesus are not the children of Mary!

Jose’s, Simon Salome are children of another Mary!

Mk 15:40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;

Is Mary the mother of James?
If you mean the Blessed Virgin Mary then no. Her sister-in-law, Mary of Clopas, was the wife of Alphaeus (St. Joseph's brother), and mother of Simon, Joseph, and the apostles Judas Thaddeus, and James (the Less, brother of the Lord): Jesus' cousins.

The "sisters" of Jesus refer to women disciples.

Salome, or Mary Salome, was the wife of Zebedee, and mother of apostles John (the beloved), and James (the greater).


Regarding Mat. 13:55 and Mk. 6:3, two of the four "brethren" are James and Judas of Alphaeus (cf. Mat. 10:2-3, Lk. 6:15-16, Act. 1:13). The third, Joseph, is identified in Mk. 15:40 as the brother of James of Alphaeus. The fourth, Simon, is identified in Mat. 13:55 and Mk. 6:3 as the brother of Joseph, James, and Judas of Alphaeus. Therefore, all four are were the sons of Alphaeus, not St. Joseph and the Blessed Virgin Mary.

When Jesus was twelve they went up to Jerusalem, the holy family, Joseph, Mary, and Jesus. Where are the brothers and sisters?

Jesus on the cross gives His mother to John, why? Why not James or a brother? Perhaps the law of Moses requires a mother to be given to the next oldest son? Because he was an only Son!
Only begotten of the Father, only begotten of the Mother.
 

goodserverity

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Thanks very much for responding to my post, it was an honor to read what you had to say.

Do you not realize that it is not difficult to realize that - Joseph did not have marital relations with Mary until she gave birth to her first born son

This was the very point of the Angel’s message to Joseph - the Angel commanded him to do not be fearful about his concerns regarding Mary’s pregnancy - and to take Mary as his wife.

Proceed with sexual intimacy - and marriage, the Angel was removing Joseph's fears about the sexual problem that he faced with the marriage...... Commanding him to stop being fearful to take
Mary as his wife.

WHY WOULD AN ANGEL OF GOD COMMAND OR COMPELL A MAN WHO WAS PLANNING TO HAVE SEXUAL INTIMACY AND SEXUAL INTERCOURSE " marriage " WITH A WOMAN - TO NOT BE FEARFUL ABOUT THE WOMAN'S SEXUAL SITUATION AND PREGNANCY - IF GOD EXPECTED THE WOMAN TO REMAIN A PERPETUAL VIRGIN ?


This ideology is complete perversity. The Angel was encouraging a man to have sex with a woman in marriage - but God wanted the woman to remain a virgin ? ?

However, Joseph did not have marital relations with Mary until / up to the time, after the birth.


What Protestants are overlooking, When discussing Mary’s relationship with her children - brothers and sisters of Yahashua

The most important and overlooked fact that we must remember is that, never once, do we find Yahashua calling Mary as his mother. THE AUTHOR OF THE SCRIPTURES - The Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit does not recognize Mary as the real mother of the adult Yahashua, mainly regarding in his ministry and heavenly deity .

Yahashua repeatedly and continually always refers to Mary as “ WOMAN , “

Not only, does Yahashua refuse to call Mary as his mother - but he goes out of his way to make it known that he calls Mary - as simply “ woman “ making a clear distinction to let everyone around him understand, that he does not consider Mary to really be his mother.
To Yahashua - Mary is called - “ woman “ / lady.

The Question is - If Roman Catholics insist that Mary is the mother to all believers - then why would the believer be calling Mary as “ Their Mother “ when Yahashua denied and refused to call Mary as his mother ?

This fact - this very fact - concerning the reality and the Holy Spirit in Yahashua himself does not consider Mary to be the real Mother of Yahashua,
this is the very reason that when we find in the following verses - below
saying _

Mat_13:55 Yahashua's mother is Mary - and his brothers are James, Hoses, Simon, and Judah ?

:56 And the sisters, { of Yahashua } are they not all with us
Mat 27:56 Mary the mother of James and Hoses,
Mat_27:56 Mary the mother of James and Hoses
Mar_15:40 Mary the mother of James Hoses, and { His Sister } Shalloma ;
Mar_15:47 Mary the mother of Hoses
Mar_16:1 Mary the mother of James, and { His Sister } Shalloma
Luk_24:10 Mary the mother of James

We are seeing here, the Bible is making a distinction to separate Mary from being recognized as the Mother of Yahashua - just as Yahashua also does the same exact thing.

in all of these passages, this is the Mother and brothers and sister of Yahashua, however, as Yahashua did not recognized and Identify Mary as his real mother - the scriptures are making the same distinction.
When Yahashua was teaching to the multitudes during in his ministry, his Mother and Brothers and Sisters came and were calling upon him But Yahashua declared to the crowds - answering them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?
Where are my brothers and where is my mother ?

Mar 3:34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, saying LOOK - Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, they are my brother, and sister, and my mother.

All we need to do is follow the Holy Spirit, that authored the Bible - but to Roman Catholics, the Holy Spirit has not authored their Bible - their Holy Traditions are the inspiration and author of their Translation and author of their faith.
 
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