Retrobyter, concerning the gospel of Christ

[guysmith]

Shalom Retrobyter,

You stated: "Being justified by God" is the same as "being born again."
"Being saved" is the same as "being rescued" or "being delivered!"

My response: I contend that the gospel promoted by Paul is the Gospel of "Being justified by God". The Gospel promoted by Christ (Matthew 24:14) is about "being rescued" or "being delivered!"

Your thoughts?

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

 

[Floyd]

guysmith: I don't want to enter a long battle with you on this subject; just to state my view.

Jesus only ever addressed the Jews in His main teaching; "I come only to the lost sheep of Israel"!
The Acts period was a continuation of the OT and Gospel period in the sense of "the Jew first"!
That did not change until Acts 28:25-28 when the Gospel was sent to the Gentiles "and they will hear"!
Paul was "a chosen vessel", and as such was the mouthpiece of the Risen Christ!
That "Administration" change was simultaneous with Paul's new Commission of "the mystery church (Body)", after which he wrote 7 more letters applicable to that "Body".
The conclusion is that the "saving", rescue, etc all have similar meanings; except that Jesus only ever spoke of His Fathers Kingdom on earth, (The Lord's Prayer); whereas Paul spoke of other destinations; which relate to Jesus' comment "in my Fathers House are many mansions" (KJV); better understood as many divisions or domains.
This then shows that the Jews of Jesus day, and those of Acts up to 28:28, and those of 28:28 to the present day; all have different destinations in Eternity!
When this is seen and understood, (IMO) it defuses the argument!
Regards.
Floyd.

 

[Jun2u]

Jesus only ever addressed the Jews in His main teaching; "I come only to the lost sheep of Israel"!

If the statement above is true then Jesus can't be the Saviour of the world (IJo. 4:14), but the truth is, God has in mind; "the lost sheep of the "Israel of God" consisting of all believers scattered all over the world."

except that Jesus only ever spoke of His Fathers Kingdom on earth, (The Lord's Prayer);

"The Lord's Prayer" is a prayer for "salvation" taught to us by Jesus!

Go ahead, try to unravel this prayer and see how beautiful it really is.

This then shows that the Jews of Jesus day, and those of Acts up to 28:28, and those of 28:28 to the present day; all have different destinations in Eternity!

Only in the sense there is one area of destination (heaven). Just as the U.S.A. is one and divided into many states.

Likewise, some of us will rule five or ten cities in heaven (Lu. 4:43; 19:17-19). Although I don't pretend to know what these all means. Are these "rewards?" I don't believe so. Not according to:

Mr 10:29:

And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel’s,

Lu 18:30

Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting

To God Be The Glory

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, guysmith.

Shalom Retrobyter,

You stated: "Being justified by God" is the same as "being born again."
"Being saved" is the same as "being rescued" or "being delivered!"

My response: I contend that the gospel promoted by Paul is the Gospel of "Being justified by God". The Gospel promoted by Christ (Matthew 24:14) is about "being rescued" or "being delivered!"

Your thoughts?

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

Actually, while you are right about the Messiah's Good News being about the nation Isra'el "being rescued" or "being delivered," Sha'uwl Paulos did NOT teach anything different than the Messiah taught! To the contrary, we have a particular "twist" on the words of Paulos that has been propagated down through the last two millennia relentlessly!

Both taught about being justified by God, as well. For instance, remember the parable Yeshua` taught about the Publican and the Paruwsh (Pharisee) - the Separatist?
Luke 18:9-14
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
KJV

So, Yeshua` knew a thing or two about people being justified by God. (Go figure.)

Indeed, God's justification of an individual is not unique to the NT! It is also found in the Tanakh (OT)!

Psalm 130:3-4
3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O LORD, who shall stand?
4 But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared.
KJV

Psalm 57:1-2
1 Be merciful unto me, O God, be merciful unto me: for my soul trusteth in thee: yea, in the shadow of thy wings will I make my refuge, until these calamities be overpast.
2 I will cry unto God most high; unto God that performeth all things for me.
KJV

Isaiah 64:6-9
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.
8 But now, O Lord, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
9 Be not wroth very sore, O Lord, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, we are all thy people.
KJV

Daniel 9:18-19
18 O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies.
19 O LORD, hear; O LORD, forgive; O LORD, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.
KJV

Isaiah 45:23-25
23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
KJV

Indeed, Paul DREW UPON these verses in support of his teaching of God's justification, such as Psalm 32:1-2; Genesis 15:6; and Psalm 143:2:

Psalm 32:1-2
32 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
KJV

Genesis 15:6
6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.
NIV

Psalm 143:2
2 And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified.
KJV

Thus, this is NOT a unique-to-the-NT teaching. I believe it can be shown that Rav Sha'uwl Paulos well understood the Rescue that Yeshua` indicated was coming better than Christians today know!