Revelation 11 and Revelation 12

[Spiritual Israelite]

What bible verse(s) in Revelation states that the false prophet and the beast are....

1. imprisoned in the bottomless pit.
2. rise up out of the bottomless pit.

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Why does Revelation 19:20 not include Satan ?

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Why does it have to include Satan? There are parallel passages in the book of Revelation that speak of the same events and they don't all give the same details regarding those events. Premils like you miss that.

Do you believe the following passages are referring to the same battle?

Revelation 16:12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty. 15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.” 16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

Revelation 19:19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

If you believe these are referring to the same battle, then notice how the dragon, which we know is Satan, is mentioned in the Revelation 16 passage, but not in the Revelation 19 passage. The Revelation 16 passage clearly shows that he is involved in the battle, so does him not being specifically mentioned in the Revelation 19 passage mean he's not involved in the battle described there? No, because it's the same battle. There is nothing to demand that Satan be specifically referenced in the Revelation 19 passage in order for him to be involved in what is described there at that time.

 

[Davidpt]

Why does it have to include Satan? There are parallel passages in the book of Revelation that speak of the same events and they don't all give the same details regarding those events. Premils like you miss that.

Do you believe the following passages are referring to the same battle?

Revelation 16:12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty. 15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.” 16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

Revelation 19:19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

If you believe these are referring to the same battle, then notice how the dragon, which we know is Satan, is mentioned in the Revelation 16 passage, but not in the Revelation 19 passage. The Revelation 16 passage clearly shows that he is involved in the battle, so does him not being specifically mentioned in the Revelation 19 passage mean he's not involved in the battle described there? No, because it's the same battle. There is nothing to demand that Satan be specifically referenced in the Revelation 19 passage in order for him to be involved in what is described there at that time.

Eric, this is a good point you make in regards to satan. Now if you can only do something similar with Revelation 20:7-10, and show, though verse 10 already has the beast and fp in the LOF before satan gets cast in, how they can then be present among those surrounding the camp of the saints?

In Revelation 19 there is no saint even on the earth being surrounded if they instead are descending with Christ out of heaven. In Revelation 20:7-10 it's a different scene altogether. To show what I mean, let's look at the following.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Vs...

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

In Revelation 20:8-9 where are you seeing this taking place---And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses?

In Revelation 19:11-21 where are you seeing this taking place---on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about?

Clearly, in Revelation 19:11-21 there are no saints being surrounded on the earth if they are seen descending from heaven with Christ(Revelation 19:14)

Clearly, in Revelation 20:8-9 there are no saints descending from heaven with Christ if they are being surrounded on the earth instead.

How then can Amils, such as yourself, insist Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20:8-9, these are involving the same events, in this case, the bodily return of Christ in the end of this age? Not to mention, Revelation 19:20 records that the beast and fp are taken and cast alive into the LOF.

Revelation 20:9 records---and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. Who could possibly still be alive if that happens to them? If the beast and fp are among them at the time, maybe it could be argued that the beast is a spirit entity of some kind, thus can't be devoured and killed via fire. What about the fp then? he might even be human unless you can show otherwise. Therefore, if he is among those devoured by fire how can he then be taken and cast into the LOF alive?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Eric, this is a good point you make in regards to satan.

Thanks, I appreciate that.

Now if you can only do something similar with Revelation 20:7-10, and show, though verse 10 already has the beast and fp in the LOF before satan gets cast in, how they can then be present among those surrounding the camp of the saints?

There is no indication in verse 10 as to exactly when the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire in relation to what is described in the previous verses. So, they very easily could be cast there after the event described in verse 9 is over with Satan being cast there shortly after that. The text isn't specific about that, so we can't draw any conclusions one way or another about that just from that text alone.

In Revelation 19 there is no saint even on the earth being surrounded if they instead are descending with Christ out of heaven.

Do you remember what I said about not every passage related to an event containing all the same details about that event? I thought you understood that based on your response to what I pointed out regarding Revelation 16:12-16 and Revelation 19:19-21? It's no different here. For some reason, you are assuming that there can't be any saints on the earth in Revelation 19 just because it doesn't specifically mention that. Is that the way we should interpret scripture? We should only go by what is specifically mentioned and make assumptions about what isn't specifically mentioned? No way. There is nothing there saying that there aren't any saints on the earth being surrounded, so there's no basis for making that assumption.

This is like what pre-tribs do when they don't see a direct relation between passages like 1 Thess 4:14-17 and Matthew 24:29-31. They think since the 1 Thess 4 passage doesn't mention anyone being gathered by angels then it can't be talking about the same event as Matthew 24:29-31. You and I both know that is ridiculous and that those two passages are talking about the same event. Just because they don't each contain the same details doesn't mean they can't each be about the same event. Right? I'm sure you agree. Yet, for some reason, you decide that since Revelation 19:19-21 and Revelation 20:7-10 don't contain the same details then they can't be describing the same event. Why? For no good reason that I can see.

In Revelation 20:7-10 it's a different scene altogether.

No, it is not. The two passages are simply describing different aspects of the same scene. Similar to how 1 Thess 4:14-17 and Matthew 24:29-31 describe different aspects (and also similar aspects) of the second coming of Christ.

To show what I mean, let's look at the following.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Vs...

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

In Revelation 20:8-9 where are you seeing this taking place---And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses?

In Revelation 19:11-21 where are you seeing this taking place---on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about?

Clearly, in Revelation 19:11-21 there are no saints being surrounded on the earth if they are seen descending from heaven with Christ(Revelation 19:14)

Clearly, in Revelation 20:8-9 there are no saints descending from heaven with Christ if they are being surrounded on the earth instead.

David, do you not believe that the dead in Christ will be coming with Christ from heaven when He returns and that those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them to meet Christ in the air, as 1 Thess 4:14-17 talks about? Why are you acting as if all saints have to be either in heaven or on earth at the point where Christ starts to descend from heaven? That doesn't make any sense, especially in light of what Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17.

How then can Amils, such as yourself, insist Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20:8-9, these are involving the same events, in this case, the bodily return of Christ in the end of this age?

Very easily. For some reason, that I hope you explain, you have decided that all saints have to be in the same location when the events described are occurring. Despite the fact that scripture indicates that the dead in Christ will be coming with Him FROM heaven when He returns and those who are alive and remain will be caught up to Him when He returns. So, initially, you have saints both in heaven and on earth when Christ returns. And they will all be gathered together to meet Him "in the air" at that point.

Not to mention, Revelation 19:20 records that the beast and fp are taken and cast alive into the LOF.

So?

Revelation 20:9 records---and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. Who could possibly still be alive if that happens to them?

The beast and false prophet are not human beings, they are symbolic representations of this evil world and Satan's kingdom. It's figurative language. The beast existed even before the book of Revelation was written (see Rev 17:8), so it can't be a human being. Remember, even death and hell are said to be cast into the lake of fire. Should that be taken literally as if death and hell can literally be cast into a lake of fire?

If the beast and fp are among them at the time, maybe it could be argued that the beast is a spirit entity of some kind, thus can't be devoured and killed via fire.

Bingo!

What about the fp then?

Same. Are you aware that the false prophet is another name for the second beast referenced in Revelation 13? If the first beast is a spirit entity of some kind, then it only follows that the second beast/false prophet is a spirit entity of some kind, also.

he might even be human unless you can show otherwise.

I think you are the one who would need to show how a human could possibly be cast alive into the lake of fire. If they are human would they not be included among those whose names are not written in the book of life? Revelation 20:11-15 indicates describes those humans as being "dead", not alive.

Therefore, if he is among those devoured by fire how can he then be taken and cast into the LOF alive?

How can they be cast into the LOF alive at all if they are human? That makes no sense. Again, scripture describes the humans that will be cast into the lake of fire as being "dead".

 

[Douggg]

Do you believe the following passages are referring to the same battle?

Revelation 16:12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty. 15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.” 16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

No, verse 12 is about a prelude to Armageddon. It represents the battles in Daniel 11:40-44 against the beast-king (king of the west). Drawing the armies of the world into the middle east before the Armageddon event.

Then Daniel 11:45, between the seas in the text, is the final stand of the beast king when the sign of the Son of Man appears in heaven.

Here are three graphics I made...

1. the prelude to Armageddon. (Daniel 11:40-44)
2. between the seas (Daniel 11:45)
3. Revelation 19, Zechariah 14, Jesus's return to stand on the Mt. of Olives.







Then after the kings of the eart preparing to make war on Jesus for 45 days, Jesus descends to earth and the Revelation 19 event takes place. Here is a graphic I made of that event.

 

[Douggg]

If you believe these are referring to the same battle, then notice how the dragon, which we know is Satan, is mentioned in the Revelation 16 passage, but not in the Revelation 19 passage. The Revelation 16 passage clearly shows that he is involved in the battle, so does him not being specifically mentioned in the Revelation 19 passage mean he's not involved in the battle described there? No, because it's the same battle. There is nothing to demand that Satan be specifically referenced in the Revelation 19 passage in order for him to be involved in what is described there at that time.

Satan will definitely be present on the temple mount before Revelation 19. Satan's presence will be that he will be indwelling the statue image of the beast, which people are going to worship, and is what makes the image appear to be alive and speak. That statue image is going to go up in flames.

In Ezekiel 28:16-19, is about the exposure of Satan in plain sight that day.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

My graphic shows what is going to happen....

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, verse 12 is about a prelude to Armageddon. It represents the battles in Daniel 11:40-44 against the beast-king (king of the west). Drawing the armies of the world into the middle east before the Armageddon event.

LOL. It figures that you can't even see the parallels in those 2 passages. Do you believe there are any two passages in the book of Revelation that refer to the same event or do you think every passage in the book refers to a different event? Revelation can't be properly understood without recognizing the parallel sections of scripture within it. Without recognizing that you end up having the world being destroyed several times and Satan being allowed to wreak havoc on the earth multiple times and so on. It turns the book of Revelation into a complete mess.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Satam will definitely be present on the temple mount before Revelation 19. Satan's presence will be that he will be indwelling the statue image of the beast, which people are going to worship, and is what makes the image appear to be alive and speak. That statue image is going to go up in flames.

I'm not going to waste time debating the details of what you said here. You know I disagree with what you're saying here. But, in the context of what was being discussed, it seems that you acknowledge that Satan will be involved in the events described in Revelation 19 despite not being specifically mentioned there. Our friend David seems to think that since Satan is not specifically mentioned in Revelation 19, then he can't possibly be involved in any way in anything that is described in Revelation 19. But, just because someone or something is not specifically mentioned in a certain passage doesn't mean that individual can't be involved or that thing can't happen at the same time as what is described in that passage.

 

[Jay Ross]

Such a convincing argument that you made here. Great job, Jay.

Your presented timeline as to when Christ will be given dominion over the peoples of the earth does not match up with what is recorded in Daniel 7. That was why I stated that you were just as confused as Douggg.

Goodbye

 

[Douggg]

I'm not going to waste time debating the details of what you said here. You know I disagree with what you're saying here. But, in the context of what was being discussed, it seems that you acknowledge that Satan will be involved in the events described in Revelation 19 despite not being specifically mentioned there. Our friend David seems to think that since Satan is not specifically mentioned in Revelation 19, then he can't possibly be involved in any way in anything that is described in Revelation 19. But, just because someone or something is not specifically mentioned in a certain passage doesn't mean that individual can't be involved or that thing can't happen at the same time as what is described in that passage.

I made a graphic of what will take place the day that Jesus returns to stand on the Mt. Olives.

Why don't you make a graphic of what you think will take place that day ?

 

[Douggg]

Your presented timeline as to when Christ will be given dominion over the peoples of the earth does not match up with what is recorded in Daniel 7.

I missed it. None of you have presented a timeline chart, nor any graphics you have made depicting what is going to happen.

Maybe God has not programmed you for such things. Neither happened overnight for me. I thank God for blessing me.

 

[Douggg]

It figures that you can't even see the parallels in those 2 passages.

What are you talking about ?

Can you not connect these two passages?

Revelation 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your presented timeline as to when Christ will be given dominion over the peoples of the earth does not match up with what is recorded in Daniel 7. That was why I stated that you were just as confused as Douggg.

Goodbye

Daniel 7:13-14 records His ascension as well, so that matches up with the passages I presented (Rev 12:5 and Ephesians 1:19-22. Do you deny what Paul wrote here:

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

When does this say that Jesus was put in a position "Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named" with the Father having "put all things under his feet" while making Him "the head over all things to the church"? Do you deny that this occurred upon His resurrection and ascension to heaven?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I missed it. None of you have presented a timeline chart, nor any graphics you have made depicting what is going to happen.

Doug, are you aware that scripture doesn't contain any charts? I presented a timeline using text from scripture. Do you have something against scripture text, Doug? Using scripture, I showed a timeline of Christ's reign as having begun upon His resurrection and ascension as indicated in the passages I quoted (Rev 12:5 and Ephesians 1:19-22). I also used scripture to show when Satan was cast out of heaven. No chart is required.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I made a graphic of what will take place the day that Jesus returns to stand on the Mt. Olives.

Why don't you make a graphic of what you think will take place that day ?

Because that is unnecessary. I'm able to communicate using words, Doug. Just like everyone else here. There's no need for graphics or charts in order to get a point across and explain scripture.

Also, I can't make a graphic to show something that I don't even believe will happen. Scripture teaches that we will meet Jesus "in the air" when He comes, not on the Mount of Olives. And scripture indicates that He will be destroying the earth at that time, not standing on it. Imagine me asking you a question that doesn't even pertain to how you view things, Doug. What would you think of that? It would be like me asking you what you think will happen on the day we are caught up to Christ in the air, immediately after which He destroys the earth. I wouldn't ask you a question like that since I know you don't even believe that will happen. I like to use common sense like that, Doug. Maybe you should try it.

 

[Douggg]

Daniel 7:13-14 records His ascension as well, so that matches up with the passages I presented (Rev 12:5 and Ephesians 1:19-22. Do you deny what Paul wrote here:

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

When does this say that Jesus was put in a position "Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named" with the Father having "put all things under his feet" while making Him "the head over all things to the church"? Do you deny that this occurred upon His resurrection and ascension to heaven?

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

So Jesus has that power right now.

But it is not until the seventh angel sounds that God the Father takes up His great power and begins to dismantle Satan and his angel's kingdom's impact on the earth so that His Son Jesus will return and reign here on earth, as the kingdom of heaven is brought to earth as the kingdom of God over the nations of the earth.

Revelation 11:
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

 

[Douggg]

Doug, are you aware that scripture doesn't contain any charts? I presented a timeline using text from scripture. Do you have something against scripture text, Doug? Using scripture, I showed a timeline of Christ's reign as having begun upon His resurrection and ascension as indicated in the passages I quoted (Rev 12:5 and Ephesians 1:19-22). I also used scripture to show when Satan was cast out of heaven. No chart is required.

Are you aware that the scriptures don't contain typed words either, but were written in hand.

You did not show a time "line". You used words, but no line. A timeline is a graphical representation.

You wrote, perhaps, about what you think is the order of events. But you did not present a timeline. A time line has elements of time on it - i.e. days, years, months, etc.

This is a type of timeline...

 

[Douggg]

Also, I can't make a graphic to show something that I don't even believe will happen. Scripture teaches that we will meet Jesus "in the air" when He comes, not on the Mount of Olives.

Zechariah 14:
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

So Jesus has that power right now.

I'm glad that you can at least acknowledge that. Many premils don't.

But it is not until the seventh angel sounds that God the Father takes up His great power and begins to dismantle Satan and his angel's kingdom's impact on the earth so that His Son Jesus will return and reign here on earth, as the kingdom of heaven is brought to earth as the kingdom of God over the nation of the earth.

Revelation 11:
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

You lost me here. I don't understand what you're trying to say here. According to Paul, the Father doesn't reign until Jesus returns. You somehow having Him starting to reign even before Jesus returns. Please read this:

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

Notice that Paul talks about all being made alive (resurrected from the dead) when Christ returns. And he said "Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power". So, Paul indicated that Jesus will come and then He will hand over the kingdom to God the Father. It is not until then, after Jesus has returned, that the Father begins to reign. You have Him reigning already even before Jesus returns. You are interpreting Revelation 11 in such a way that contradicts Paul in 1 Corinthians 15. You can't do that. You need to interpret every verse in such a way that doesn't contradict any other verse. If your interpretation of any given verse or passage contradicts any other verse or passage, then you need to try again until you're not doing that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Zechariah 14:
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

He already stood on the mount of Olives long ago. Zechariah 14 is not about the return of Christ. Believing that results in serious problems because later in the chapter it talks about animal sacrifices being performed and such, which is not something that will happen after Christ's return. But, discussing Zechariah 14 in detail probably requires a thread of its own. We would almost certainly derail this thread if we started talking about Zechariah 14 in detail. I don't know if we should do that. But, you created this thread, so you tell me if you want to do that or not.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Are you aware that the scriptures don't contain typed words either, but were written in hand.

LOL. So? Scripture is words and not charts. Give me a break, Doug. Please get serious.

You did not show a time "line". You used words, but no line.

I used scripture. Do you have a problem with that? I'm not going to use graphics or charts, Doug. And you know it. So, don't ask me to do that again. I'm not interesting in wasting time with nonsense like this even though you probably enjoy it since you like to try to stir things up. No thanks.