Revelation chapter 11 questions

[William Barton]

IMO:
"Locusts" (Revelation chapter 9:1-11) indicates a locust swarm destroying crops, which is devastating to an agricultural society.

The further description, however, suggests that these "locusts" are in fact fallen angels, wreaking havoc on God's chosen people.

 

[Davidpt]

The further description, however, suggests that these "locusts" are in fact fallen angels, wreaking havoc on God's chosen people.

You must not be reading the same texts I am then. These locusts don't wreak havoc on God's chosen ppl, they wreak havoc on those that do not have the seal of God in their forehead. IOW, they wreak havoc on satan's camp, the lost. That alone tells us satan isn't the king over them and isn't commanding them to do this once they are let out of the pit.

In my view it is the 2Ws that are behind this. It's not like a swarm of locusts do not equal a plague of sorts. In the real world it would equal a plague,

Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

(Revelation 9:4)....And it was commanded them that they should hurt only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads

(Revelation 11:6)......These have power--to smite the earth with ALL plagues, as OFTEN as they will.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You must not be reading the same texts I am then. These locusts don't wreak havoc on God's chosen ppl, they wreak havoc on those that do not have the seal of God in their forehead. IOW, they wreak havoc on satan's camp, the lost. That alone tells us satan isn't the king over them and isn't commanding them to do this once they are let out of the pit.

I'm not understanding your logic here. Do you not think that Satan and his fallen angels would want to wreak havoc on unbelievers if God allows them to? Of course they would. Do you not think that the locusts represent fallen angels? It says the angel of the bottomless pit/abyss is their king, so that's a pretty strong clue that they are angels. Do you not think that Satan and fallen angels want to wreak havoc on the lost? Of course they do. Satan is described as prowling around like a lion seeking who he may devour (1 Peter 5:8) and that unbelievers are held captive by Satan to do his will (2 Timothy 2:26). And demons have always oppressed and possessed unbelievers any chance they get for a long time. So, I'm not understanding at all how you are concluding that Satan can't be the king of the demonic locusts.

 

[PinSeeker]

David, I agree with you that Satan is not the king over the "locusts"... <smile> Consider what these "locusts" are "like" ~ "horses prepared for battle: on their heads were what looked like crowns of gold; their faces were like human faces, their hair like women’s hair, and their teeth like lions’ teeth; they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the noise of their wings was like the noise of many chariots with horses rushing into battle..." (Revelation 9:7-11).

So yes, the fifth trumpet blast sets in motion a horrific army of locusts, energized by demonic sources (Revelation 9:1-2). The imagery derives from Exodus 10:13-15 and from Joel 2:1-11, where a literal locust plague foreshadows even more devastating judgment coming from a divinely commissioned army ("The Lord utters His voice before His army, for His camp is exceedingly great; He Who executes His Word is powerful. For the day of the Lord is great and very awesome; who can endure it?" [Joel 2:11]). Their terrorizing powers compare only to those of the Beast (Revelation 13:1-10). Yes, they "attack" only the wicked, not the saints (Revelation 9:4).

What is in view here is a spiritual battle. The wicked sometimes suffer even in this life in a way that presages their final punishment (Revelation 20:11-15). The vision depicts the self-defeating and tormenting nature of wickedness in the human soul. This general principle has multiple fulfillments. Within the Roman Empire, it represents how people giving themselves to the worship of idols and the worship of the emperor suffer torments of soul. In addition, as God brings the structures of the Empire under judgment, people may experience suffering through social, political, and military failures as well. In the future, just before the Second Coming, judgments of God against the wicked will intensify. The general principle applies to the entire period of the church age. Wickedness brings suffering rather than the hoped-for success (cf. Proverbs 10:6, 7, 9, 11, etc.). Like Proverbs, Revelation delineates a general pattern. But it is also honest about the fact that the saints may for a time suffer grievously (Revelation 6:9-10). Within this world order, justice does not always triumph quickly.

The locusts operate for five months (Revelation 9:5). A normal locust swarm would move on after a few days. This demonic swarm stays for the whole period during which locusts might be seen, emphasizing the severity of this judgment. The leader is Apollyon. Both Apollyon and Abaddon mean 'destroyer.' There may be an ironic allusion to Nero or Domitian, both of whom saw themselves as imitators of the Greek god Apollo.

So... Who (capital 'W') is ~ is <smile> ~ this King in Revelation 9? <chuckles>

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Davy]

I don't know where some here get the craziness that Satan is not behind the locust army working, and is not the king over the bottomless pit.

The below verse emphatically says Satan is over the locusts using one of Satan's many titles...

Rev 9:11
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
KJV

Those titles mean The Destroyer. That is one of Satan's many titles. The name Apollyon is even from the Greek word for 'perdition'! That applies especially to Satan, because he has already been judged and sentenced to perdition in the future "lake of fire" per Rev.20 (and per Matthew 25:34 and Isaiah 30:33).

 

[Marty fox]

I don't know where some here get the craziness that Satan is not behind the locust army working, and is not the king over the bottomless pit.

The below verse emphatically says Satan is over the locusts using one of Satan's many titles...

Rev 9:11
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
KJV

Those titles mean The Destroyer. That is one of Satan's many titles. The name Apollyon is even from the Greek word for 'perdition'! That applies especially to Satan, because he has already been judged and sentenced to perdition in the future "lake of fire" per Rev.20 (and per Matthew 25:34 and Isaiah 30:33).

Your right and the destroyer is named as the one who killed the eldest male in Egypt in the book of Exodus

 

[Ziggy]

If you go back to Exodus chapter 10, God uses locusts to go against Egypt.

Exo 10:14
And the locusts went up over all the land of Egypt, and rested in all the coasts of Egypt: very grievous were they; before them there were no such locusts as they, neither after them shall be such.
Exo 10:19
And the LORD turned a mighty strong west wind, which took away the locusts, and cast them into the Red sea; there remained not one locust in all the coasts of Egypt.

In proverbs:
Pro 30:27
The locusts have no king, yet go they forth all of them by bands;

Nah 3:17
Thy crowned are as the locusts, and thy captains as the great grasshoppers, which camp in the hedges in the cold day, but when the sun ariseth they flee away, and their place is not known where they are.

Mat 3:4
And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.

Rev 9:3
And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

Rev 9:7
And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.

It's definitely an army of some not so pleasant disposition minions sent to wreak havoc on those who oppose God.

In Egypt there was a new Pharoah who didn't know Joseph or the Lord, and he was concerned about the Hebrews growing in numbers and taking sides with the enemies in the land.

Exo 1:8
Now there arose up a new king over Egypt, which knew not Joseph.
Exo 1:9
And he said unto his people, Behold, the people of the children of Israel are more and mightier than we:
Exo 1:10
Come on, let us deal wisely with them; lest they multiply, and it come to pass, that, when there falleth out any war, they join also unto our enemies, and fight against us, and so get them up out of the land.

These locusts that God brought up over the land to eat all of the substance of Egypt, kind of like INVADERS.
Then God turned them and they entered back to the red sea. Could be they was pirates coming to plunder Egypt.
Then in Proverbs we find that these marauders or locusts, they have no King, Could be they don't know the Lord or they just rove in bands.

John's meat was locust and wild honey.

Jesus said,
Jhn 4:34
Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Who were the locusts in Jerusalem at the time of John?
The Romans, the Gentiles. The place was swarming with all manner of "beasts" or enemies of Israel.
John's meat was to lead them to repentance before the temple would be destroyed.
REPENT! for the Kingdom of God is at hand!

And Rome overcame Jerusalem.

In Revelation what comes out of the smoke is an army not unlike the Romans that had the power to kill and crucify and bring death.
And their sting was in their tails.
1Co 15:55
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

However the Roman's did have a King, and his name was Ceasar.

And all those who did not believe and follow Christ and run for the hills like they were told, those that were not sealed with the hope of redemption, perished in the overthrow of Jerusalem.

Is Revelation also for today?
I believe it is.
And if we don't learn from the past we are doomed to repeat it in the future.

And here we are.

That's how I understand it.
Hugs

 

[Ziggy]

 

[PinSeeker]

IMO that is the Millennial Kingdom. The Eternal Kingdom is described in Revelation chapters 21, 22.

Zechariah 14 depicts the end-times siege of Jerusalem, the Messiah’s victorious return, and the establishment of God’s holy kingdom. It should be viewed as the same event depicted in both Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20:7-10. So the setting is after the millennium of Revelation 20:1-6 has ended. Yes, the eternal Kingdom, the New Heaven and New Earth ~ the full manifestation of it ~ is described in Revelation 21:1-8. Revelation 21:9 through Revelation 22 is a wrap-up of sorts, summing up John's visions, and filled with final exhortations and anticipation of eternity to come, and bringing the narrative of Revelation to a close.​

Grace and peace to all.

 

[William Barton]

God's chosen people are the Jews, and unfortunately many of them reject Christianity.

Locust swarms destroy crops, which is very damaging to agrarian societies. Of course these are not true locusts, rather IMO they are Satan's angels ("demons") attacking people, as in Job 2:7-10. See also Revelation 12:9.

 

[William Barton]

Davidpt noted:
<These locusts do not wreak havoc on God's chosen people>

IMO:
These "locusts" (IMO actually fallen angels) descend upon Israel, where Christianity arose. The first Christians were Jewish.

The Jews are God's chosen people. Gentiles were admitted to the faith only after careful consideration (Acts 10:44-48).

<Satan isn't king over them>
Satan (a.k.a. Lucifer) is a cherub, the highest level of created being, and he is a leader. He once served in the temple of God, and his fall from grace is tragic. See Isaiah 14:12-17.

Satan and his angels were thrown down to earth many years ago (Revelation 12:9).

 

[William Barton]

You must not be reading the same texts.

Davidpt noted:
<you must not be reading the same texts.>

Same texts, different understanding. This is apocalyptic literature, and IMO it must be interpreted as such.

 

[Jay Ross]

Satan and his angels were thrown down to earth many years ago (Revelation 12:9).

William, Satan and his angels, i.e. the beasts and the Little Horn are still able to enter heaven at this present time.

Around the year 2045 AD is when Satan and the wicked rebelling heavenly hosts and the kings of the earth will be judged and those who fall short will be gathered together and imprisoned for many days to await the time of their punishment. (Isaiah 24:21-22)

Armageddon will occur when Israel repents and turns back to God and then God will remove the beasts from the face of the earth to give Israel and His Saints peace for 1,000 years.

Shalom

 

[William Barton]

William, Satan and his angels, i.e. the beasts and the Little Horn are still able to enter heaven at this present time.

Around the year 2045 AD is when Satan and the wicked rebelling heavenly hosts and the kings of the earth will be judged and those who fall short will be gathered together and imprisoned for many days to await the time of their punishment. (Isaiah 24:21-22)

Armageddon will occur when Israel repents and turns back to God and then God will remove the beasts from the face of the earth to give Israel and His Saints peace for 1,000 years.

Shalom

Jay Ross said:
<Satan is still able to enter heaven>
<around the year 2045 Satan is judged>

IMO:
Satan is permitted occasional visits to heaven, as noted in Job 1:6-7, Revelation 12:7-9).

 

[Jay Ross]

IMO:
Satan is permitted occasional visits to heaven (Job 1:6-7, Revelation 12:7-9).

Satan is permitted *occasional* visits to heaven (Job 1:6-7, Revelation. 12:7-9). Previously he lived there.

The scripture passages below provide a timeline for when Satan is thrown out of heaven with his angels: -



The other scripture we need to consider is this: -



Please note that the Second commandment of the Ten Commandments tells us that the iniquities of the fathers will be visited upon their children and the children's children during the third and the fourth age of the existence of the nation of Israel. Now the nation of Israel started with the birth of Isaac at the beginning of the Third Age of mankind which means that the completion of the visitation of the fathers' iniquity will last up to and until the completion of the sixth generation/age of mankind.

Now since the sixth generation/age of mankind is not yet complete, and will, from my searching the searching of the scripture, not occur until around the end of the year 2044 AD.

May I boldly suggest to you that you go back and re-evaluate your understanding of when God will begin gathering Israel to Himself and when Satan is kicked out of heaven down to the earth to be imprisoned with the other judged heavenly hosts and the judged kings of the earth to be imprisoned for a period of 1,000 years in the Bottomless Pit.

Shalom

 

[Biblica]

The Two Witnesses

Rev 11:1 Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.

First question, which Temple is God talking about, the temple of Salomon which was destroyed in AD70, or is it a future temple yet to be build. And if the latter is true how can God call that temple the temple of God because God does not longer live in a temple but in the hearts of His children. So I think chapter 11 is talking about a situation before AD70.

Verse 3-6 is about the Two Witnesses, messengers of God, it is still about Jerusalem.

Rev 11:7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them, and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified. [ESV]

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. [KJV]

So in Jerusalem the beast that rises from the bottomless pit murders the messengers of God in Jerusalem and God calls Jerusalem Sodom and Egypt.

Second question, who (or what) is the beast that murdered the 2 messengers of God, a number of possibilities :

. The religious leaders of that time, the Pharisees, the Sadducees once again.
. Rome
. The Zealots who denied Christ and waged war on Rome (66–73 AD).

Is the beast Israel itself in that time period (33-70AD) ?

And if Revelation 11 is future, the same question is valid.

I did an expository study of Revelation and what I found was that the word for the literal temple building is never used in Revelation. The word that is used is naos which designates the holy place. This can mean the inner court of the heart.

The two witnesses are called candlesticks in that chapter (verse 4) and candlesticks represent churches in Revelation (1:20). They are also olive trees and there are two in scripture, the wild Gentile olive tree and the Hebrew Olive tree that believers in Messiah Jesus are grafted into. So we can see that these two individuals represent Gentile and Hebrew Messianic believers, symbolic of the remnant church, who are testifying in Jerusalem before a great earthquake. They are overcome by the beast system and silenced. Persecution against Christians in Israel has been steadily increasing. For the past thirty years they have been trying to pass a law outlawing Christianity in that country. The symbolism here could represent the eventual passing of that law. Then the witnesses are called up, (raptured), then the earthquake.

Israel is called Sodom because of her acceptance of homosexuality. There have been gay pride parades in Israel for the past twelve years. She is called Egypt because of her own prejudice against Gentiles, so here God is calling them Gentiles which would be a great insult. Their racism comes from following the Babylonian Talmud above the Old Testament, which encourages them in their supposed superiority over other races. They have failed to recognize that God called them to be the lineage that would bring in the Messiah who in turn would gather the Gentiles to make them all one fold under one shepherd, Jesus. We are shown in Ezekiel 38:16, that God brings the nations against Israel to correct her sins, Ezekiel 39:23. Her greatest sin is rejecting their Messiah Jesus. We can begin to see the stirring of the nations against Israel today, so this chapter is very significant for these times. Watch the persecution in Israel closely.

 

[rwb]

First question, which Temple is God talking about, the temple of Salomon which was destroyed in AD70, or is it a future temple yet to be build. And if the latter is true how can God call that temple the temple of God because God does not longer live in a temple but in the hearts of His children. So I think chapter 11 is talking about a situation before AD70.

Perhaps the temple is the one that represents the Kingdom of God on earth, i.e. the church, of which all who have been born again are.

2 Corinthians 6:16 (KJV) And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Verse 3-6 is about the Two Witnesses, messengers of God, it is still about Jerusalem.

Interestingly the two witnesses would prophesy during the same amount of time the woman would flee into the wilderness to a place prepared by God, Who would feed her throughout this time referenced a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Revelation 11:3 (KJV) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Revelation 11:4 (KJV) These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Revelation 11:5 (KJV) And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

When considering these two passages together it appears the measuring of the temple of God is connected with the birth of Christ, who came to earth with the Kingdom of God and established the church, sending the church out unto all the earth to proclaim the gospel that the Kingdom would be complete as the gospel is preached unto mankind.

Re 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Re 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

At the beginning measuring the temple (church) as it began, the measuring of those who worship therein would be small, like a mustard seed. But through the protection of God Christ will build His church and not even the gates of hell would be able to prevent it. This period of time referenced a thousand two hundred and threescore days of persecutions against the woman and her seed is also referenced in Rev 12:14 as a time, and times, and half a time when the church is being protected from the face of the serpent.

Matthew 13:31 (KJV) Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
Matthew 13:32 (KJV) Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

Revelation 12:12 (KJV) Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Revelation 12:13 (KJV) And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Revelation 12:14 (KJV) And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Revelation 12:17 (KJV) And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[William Barton]

You must not be reading the same texts I am then. These locusts don't wreak havoc on God's chosen ppl, they wreak havoc on those that do not have the seal of God in their forehead.

The Jews are God's chosen people, and I honor them as such (Exodus 19:5). Some of them are regenerate, some are not.

I am a gentile, but Jesus's sacrifice paid the penalty for me as well ("fellow heirs," Ephesians 3:6). I know my place.

The "locusts" (fallen angles) are not allowed to persecute those with the seal on their heads (Christian Jews and Gentiles, see Ephesians 3:5-6).

BTW, Abraham is the father of the faith, and Abraham is a Gentile.

 

[William Barton]

William, Satan and his angels, i.e. the beasts and the Little Horn are still able to enter heaven at this present time.

Around the year 2045 AD is when Satan and the wicked rebelling heavenly hosts and the kings of the earth will be judged and those who fall short will be gathered together and imprisoned for many days to await the time of their punishment. (Isaiah 24:21-22)

Armageddon will occur when Israel repents and turns back to God and then God will remove the beasts from the face of the earth to give Israel and His Saints peace for 1,000 years.

Shalom

Satan is apparently allowed occasional visits to the temple in heaven (Job 1:6-12). I doubt whether his angels are allowed, rather he is the spokesman.

 

[Jay Ross]

Satan is apparently allowed occasional visits to the temple in heaven (Job 1:6-12). I doubt whether his angels are allowed, rather he is the spokesman.

This is what John has written: -

Revelation 12:7-9: - Satan Thrown Down to Earth​

​

7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.​

The Apostle John apparently saw in his recorded vision that Satan and his angels have access to Heaven up and until the time of the war in Heaven is over. Isaiah 24:21-22 also suggests that the battle in heaven ends at the same time as the kings on the earth are judged at Armageddon, for their part in trampling God's Temple and His earthly hosts, for the Little Horn. In this prophecy, we are told that the heavenly Hosts are gathered together with the judged kings of the earth and they are all imprisoned in the Bottomless pit for many days, nominally for 1,000 years, to await the time of their punishment.

Daniel 9:26b also tells us that the "And the people of the prince, who is to come, shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed."

I do not believe that the scriptures supports your understanding.

Shalom