Revelation Chapter 12, the Real Revelation

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DPMartin

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first, thanks for the response, second, Revelation 12 have nothing to do with the Lord death. so your assessment there is rejected. the Romans crucified a man, not a child.

king Herod was in power when the child was born. the rest of your expression is conjure, not having anything to do with chapter 12.
peace in Christ


then there is the error in your proposal, not child but man child and all are children of men and women. and Jesus was caught up unto God after He was resurrected, wasn't He? "right of power", correct?

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.


a child of is a child of no matter the age of the child. it seems you are forcing a round peg into a square hole. Herod is not your guy on this one, simple. recalculate
 

Truth

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101G, of course Revelation 12 has to do with the birth of Christ and I'm glad you see that, considering that almost the entire Christian world has been duped into believing the Jesuit idea that only the first 3 chapters of Revelation have been fulfilled. The chapter covers:
  • the appearance of the woman (God's people)
  • clothed with the Sun (Glory of the Gospel of Christ)
  • the moon under her feet (the reflected Glory of the Gospel of Christ as foreshadowed by the OT sanctuary services and rituals)
  • crown of 12 stars (representing the 12 tribes of OT and 12 apostles of NT)
  • the great red dragon (Satan)
  • having seven heads and ten horns and ten crowns (his earthly agents though which he persecutes the woman)
  • which drew the third part of the stars of heaven (the rebellious third of heavenly inhabitants which followed Satan)
  • the man child which came forth from the woman (Jesus which came forth the OT holy lineage)
  • dragon stood before the woman to devour (Satan working through his human agent Herod in an attempt to destroy Jesus)
  • caught up to God and to His throne (Jesus ascension after His resurrection)
  • woman flees into wilderness for 1,260 days (God's people flee into the obscure places of the valleys, mountains, hills, caves, where God preserves them for 1,260 years from 538 AD to 1798 AD to escape the most severe persecution the devil has ever heaped upon His people through his Antichrist system in Rome - the Papacy, which began to reign in 538 AD and was overthrown in 1798 AD. Today, this "deadly wound" has been healed and "all the world wondered after the beast" is seen through more and more people paying homage, respect, and even defending the most demonic system to ever appear on the stage of history.
  • dragon angry with woman - makes war with the remnant of her seed which keep the commandments of God/have the testimony of Jesus Christ (after 1798 AD, God's people emerged once again in prominence as His "remnant church" to announce the soon return of Jesus and to carry the last warning message to the world found in Revelation 14:6-12 KJV and at her heels, the devil making war with it. This church is identified as having a peculiar resemblance to the first century church, in purity of its Biblical teachings, purity of Christian character and dress, in steadfast obedience to His Ten Commandments, and in possession of the "testimony of Jesus" which "is the Spirit of Prophecy".
If only people would give up Jesuit ideas about only the first 3 chapters of Revelation having been fulfilled and if only people would seek to find God's end time remnant church which resembles as exactly Christ's first century church as does a remnant piece of cloth resembles a piece of cloth which first came off the bolt of cloth.

Excellent Post, Excellent Presentation! God has always had a Remnant, and your piece of cloth, resembling the Garment it came from is rely Good. Be Blessed Brother!
 

101G

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Jesus was caught up unto God after He was resurrected, wasn't He? "right of power", correct?
Error on both, "caught up" is not any rapture.... not here, or any going to heaven. you must have missed this in post #16. second, he was never rapture, or Caught up. he ascended, meaning he went on his OWN POWER.
 

DPMartin

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Error on both, "caught up" is not any rapture.... not here, or any going to heaven. you must have missed this in post #16. second, he was never rapture, or Caught up. he ascended, meaning he went on his OWN POWER.

you're splitting hairs you know, just by who's power did He ascend? and He went to the Father before that, see what He said to Mary as to not touching Him. your post #16 is irrelevant if you're off base in the first place. again you are trying to make something to be what it is not. good luck with that.
 

Helen

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Is not the Man Child...Jesus the Head and the overcoming sons of God?
I don't believe for one moment that the man-child is singular. Any more than the woman is singular, or the beast singular...
Chapters 1-12 are one snap shot of The Revelation of Jesus Christ in all His glory..plus His Body. And 13-22 the second snap shot from a different position of the same thing..with a different 'picture story'. It is all typology and shadows slowly being revealed.
 
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101G

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you're splitting hairs you know, just by who's power did He ascend? and He went to the Father before that, see what He said to Mary as to not touching Him. your post #16 is irrelevant if you're off base in the first place. again you are trying to make something to be what it is not. good luck with that.
#1. "splitting hairs?"....... answer for that, Alberta V05, (smile).
#2. "He went to the Father before that". error, I don't believe so. but, give your scripture for it.
#3. "touching Him not?". what about "Stop clinging on him". he will ascend, and return. but he did not ascend into heaven, let me make this clear. he did not ascend into heaven then, or right after that. so, I'll be waiting for those scriptures.
#4. "you are trying to make something to be what it is not". well explain what I'm trying to make?.

peace in Christ.
 

Richard_oti

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#1. "splitting hairs?"....... answer for that, Alberta V05, (smile).
#2. "He went to the Father before that". error, I don't believe so. but, give your scripture for it.
#3. "touching Him not?". what about "Stop clinging on him". he will ascend, and return. but he did not ascend into heaven, let me make this clear. he did not ascend into heaven then, or right after that. so, I'll be waiting for those scriptures.
#4. "you are trying to make something to be what it is not". well explain what I'm trying to make?.

peace in Christ.
I am going to be lazy here and not look anything up:

2. Who was Jesus? Our "High Priest". What are the duties of the High Priest?
3. She was "unclean" on account of a dead body. Specifically, Jesus' body. The High Priest is not allowed to become "unclean" on account of a dead body, not even that of his own parents.

The earthly tabernacle, was a copy of that shown to Moses. Were there duties in a heavenly tabernacle that the High Priest needed to perform?

And again, what does become of the blood of a sacrifice?
 

101G

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I am going to be lazy here and not look anything up:

2. Who was Jesus? Our "High Priest". What are the duties of the High Priest?
3. She was "unclean" on account of a dead body. Specifically, Jesus' body. The High Priest is not allowed to become "unclean" on account of a dead body, not even that of his own parents.

The earthly tabernacle, was a copy of that shown to Moses. Were there duties in a heavenly tabernacle that the High Priest needed to perform?

And again, what does become of the blood of a sacrifice?
GINOLJC, sorry you're lazy, but...... oh well.
#1. The Lord Jesus is our High Priest. and second he have finished everything for us, that's why he sits. a sitting High priest is finished from his duties, and now is mediator, read Hebrews 8.
#2. another error on your part. she was clean, as well as his disciples. he had already die for the sins of the world.
#3. again Read Hebrews 8, but the entire book is good for reading. but start at chapter 2, and verse 17 for his earthly ministry and on through for his heavenly ministry.

peace in Christ
 

Richard_oti

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GINOLJC, sorry you're lazy, but...... oh well.
#1. The Lord Jesus is our High Priest. and second he have finished everything for us, that's why he sits. a sitting High priest is finished from his duties, and now is mediator, read Hebrews 8.
#2. another error on your part. she was clean, as well as his disciples. he had already die for the sins of the world.
#3. again Read Hebrews 8, but the entire book is good for reading. but start at chapter 2, and verse 17 for his earthly ministry and on through for his heavenly ministry.

peace in Christ
So you are stating, that after living a "sinless" life, a life without one transgression of haTorah, after all Jesus went through and suffered, that just before he ascended to the heavenly tabernacle, that he would allow himself to become unclean on account of a dead body, which is forbidden for ha-Kohen ha-Gadol (The High Priest), one who may not become unclean even for his own father and mother (cf VaYiqra' 21).

As for his disciples, not all of them were "unclean". Ever notice as you read the Gospels, that not once did Jesus enter a place in which there was a dead body?

Thank you for mentioning Hebrews 8, for it proves my point. Until he ascended to the heavenly sanctuary, he was not yet haKohen haGadol while still here on earth.

Ever notice that of all of the set times of YHVH that only Passover had a second chance observance. In case you couldn't observe it because you happened to be "unclean" on account of a dead body or on a journey (cf BeMidbar 9). On wonder Joseph and Nicodemus had no qualms about becoming unclean on account of removing the dead body of our Lord and Saviour. They knew such was permissable under haTorah.

BTW: Did Jesus eat the Passover, or was he the Passover? It can not have been both.
 

n2thelight

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As for his disciples, not all of them were "unclean". Ever notice as you read the Gospels, that not once did Jesus enter a place in which there was a dead body?

Matthew 9:24 "He said unto them, "Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth." And they laughed Him to scorn."

Matthew 9:25 "But when the people were put forth, He went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose."
 

Richard_oti

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Matthew 9:24 "He said unto them, "Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth." And they laughed Him to scorn."

Matthew 9:25 "But when the people were put forth, He went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose."
Touché.
 

101G

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again it looks like the Lord Yeshua is revealing himself is in GRAND style. no rebuttals, no reproof, no corrections. Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John".

if anyone is still waiting for the two witness, or another sign in the sky, which just flop in some false prediction of the sign Virgo. people are really not reading their bibles. traditions are not a worth of a nickle if your soul is in the balance of going to hell. granted you have have a chance. but one need to wake up and smell the true coffee. the reading of Revelation is not hard, (some of the times). it only appears to be, but get the Holy Spirit to open your HEARTS, and minds.

Peace in Christ Yeshua.
 

Jay Ross

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Hello

Focusing for a moment on Satan, there is still a two thousand or so war going on in heaven between Satan and God and in our near future this war will end when Satan is overcome and thrown out of heaven and is then locked up for a one thousand years period in the bottomless pit where upon it being unlocked, Satan realises that his time will be very short for him, so he immediately goes out to make war against Israel and the Saints who have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Chapter 12 spans three ages with the first two ages drawing to an end in our near future. Then there is a 1,000 year time gap in the unfolding telling of the events in the chapter with verses 13-17 referring to the events that will unfold in our distant future after the 1,000 years of Satan's imprisonment in the bottomless pit.

Shalom
 

101G

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GINOLJC, to all. not saying that you're right or wrong. but I don't believe that there is a WAR between God and Satan. Satan is evil, but not sin. and two, the devil/Satan have work to do. when reading the book of Job, I found out that God is in control of the Devil. so this thing that God and the Devil is at war is just a missed truth. God is in control of everything. Satan is only an accuser. and guess who he go to, to accuse us... God. he only can deceive, if we let him, and that's only accomplish if we have no knowledge. that's why it is "WRITTEN" so that we want be deceived..

Peace in Christ Yeshua.
 

Jay Ross

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GINOLJC, to all. not saying that you're right or wrong. but I don't believe that there is a WAR between God and Satan. Satan is evil, but not sin. and two, the devil/Satan have work to do. when reading the book of Job, I found out that God is in control of the Devil. so this thing that God and the Devil is at war is just a missed truth. God is in control of everything. Satan is only an accuser. and guess who he go to, to accuse us... God. he only can deceive, if we let him, and that's only accomplish if we have no knowledge. that's why it is "WRITTEN" so that we want be deceived..

Peace in Christ Yeshua.

Revelation 12:7-9: - And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
 

101G

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Revelation 12:7-9: - And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
J thanks for the response. the term PLACE, like in heaven do not mean that the Devil and his angels was actually in heaven. only mean that they have a voice unto God. example, Ephesians 2:5 "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus".
we are not seated physically in any place in heaven, but spiritually have a voice there in Christ. just like Jude, "estate" is not a physical place, but a state of mind. other word have our mind and thoughts on thing ABOVE, (heavenly).

in Rev 12, the war was in the preaching of the Gospel, and the repenting of Sins. Michael here is symbolic for our Lord Jesus. for the name Michael means like God. the casting out is no more authority. Luke 10:1 "After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come". and the report upon returning. Luke 10:17 & 18 "And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven". the war started after our Lord Baptism. and finished on the cross. Revelation 12:9-11 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death".

well if the devil was cast out after his victory on the cross, the statement "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God". because the devil and his demons was already in the earth. because the devil tempted the Lord in the wilderness, right after his baptism. so the statement "NOW" is come salvation, and the Kingdom, had to come after his victory, which puts the devil and his demon on earth already. the war is over. now Grace time, to win souls by the preaching of the Gospel to those who will believe.

Peace in Christ Yeshua.
 

epostle1

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Revelation 11:19, Rev. 12:1-6

The first level of "proof" would be the literal interpretation of the text itself, in which we see that this Woman gives birth to a Son, Whom the Dragon wishes to destroy. All commentators agree that the Son is Jesus Christ--and the Dragon is explicitly identified as Satan--therefore it is absolutely reasonable to assume that the Woman who gave birth to Jesus Christ MUST BE Mary, the Mother of our Lord.

There is a long-standing tradition of interpretation in the Church which views this woman from two perspectives: as representative of God’s People and as the Mother of our Lord. We note that it is common to find a feminine image for the People of God, in the OT and the NT. In this case, we see that the Savior (male child) is born of the Jewish People with the pains of birth (symbolically often used to represent a new age dawning, certainly the case with the coming of the Messiah) and Satan attempts to destroy our Lord, not just as an infant but he continually attempted to thwart his saving mission. But having failed to do this and now that our Lord has ascended to heaven, Satan continues to wage war upon the Church (the Woman). She is given protection by our Lord, as the Church is protected, through a period of persecution. The reference to a period of three and a half years, in various fractions, seems to represent a period of persecution, no matter how long it may be, in fact. This three and a half period may find a past reference in the persecution of Antiochus IV of Syria upon the Jewish people in the 2nd century BC and may find an initial fulfillment in the siege of Jerusalem from 66-70 AD, more specifically, for precisely a three and a half year period.
The early Church fathers held to similar views 1500 years before the Jesuits even existed.

At the primary level of symbolism, we can see this woman as representative of our Blessed Mother, who gave birth to our Lord. But in making this association, we do not apply every aspect or detail to her directly without qualification. For the suffering need not be a matter of physically giving birth, but of the sufferings the Mother of our Lord endured which reach a height as she stood beneath the cross upon which her Son died. Remember, the prophet Simeon had foretold that a sword of sorrow would pierce her heart. This allusion was not a matter of a physical sword but of spiritual and emotional suffering of a Mother, which is also physical. But many non Catholics will not accept deeper levels of symbols, which is often at the spiritual level of interpretation and in light of Tradition and sometimes special revelations, such as Marian apparitions, some of which have been officially approved.

And while maintaining both the symbol of Mary and of the People of God for this Woman, I now regard the primary meaning as Mary, as the other figures of this chapter refer first of all to single referents and secondarily to other realities: the Dragon is Satan, St. Michael is the Archangel, and the Male Child is, of course, Jesus Christ. The apparent connection between the appearance of the ark of the covenant in chapter eleven and the appearance of this woman in chapter twelve further confirm the association of the Woman with Mary, for she is regarded by the Church as the new Ark of the Covenant, as the first dwelling place of the Incarnate Lord.

We should also note that the Church has chosen the text of the Woman Clothed with the Sun as the first reading for the vigil Mass of the feast of the Assumption. The implication is obvious: this text is to be associated with the Blessed Mother, now in her heavenly splendor.

Finally, we have the words of two popes who comment upon this Woman as an image of the Blessed Mother.

In his encyclical letter “Ad Diem Illum Laetissimum” Pope Pius X wrote:

“A great sign,” thus the Apostle St. John describes a vision divinely sent him, appears in the heavens: “A woman clothed with the sun, and with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars upon her head.” Everyone knows that this woman signified the Virgin Mary, the stainless one who brought forth our head…John therefore saw the Most Holy Mother of God already in eternal happiness, yet travailing in a mysterious childbirth. What birth was it? Surely it was the birth of us who, still in exile, are yet to be generated to the perfect charity of God, and to eternal happiness. And the birth pains show the love and desire with which the Virgin from heaven above watches over us, and strives with unwearying prayer to bring about the fulfillment of the number of the elect.

In his encyclical letter, "The Great Sign," Pope Paul VI wrote:

The great sign which the Apostle John saw in heaven, "a woman clothed with the sun,"(1) is interpreted by the sacred Liturgy,(2) not without foundation, as referring to the most blessed Mary, the mother of all men by the grace of Christ the Redeemer.

In his encyclical letter “Redemptoris Mater” Pope John Paul II wrote:

47. Thanks to this special bond linking the Mother of Christ with the Church, there is further clarified the mystery of that "woman" who, from the first chapters of the Book of Genesis until the Book of Revelation, accompanies the revelation of God's salvific plan for humanity. For Mary, present in the Church as the Mother of the Redeemer, takes part, as a mother, in that monumental struggle; against the powers of darkness"(138) which continues throughout human history. And by her ecclesial identification as the "woman clothed with the sun" (Rev. 12:1),(139) it can be said that "in the Most Holy Virgin the Church has already reached that perfection whereby she exists without spot or wrinkle." Hence, as Christians raise their eyes with faith to Mary in the course of their earthly pilgrimage, they "strive to increase in holiness."(140) Mary, the exalted Daughter of Sion, helps all her children, wherever they may be and whatever their condition, to find in Christ the path to the Father's house.
http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=385115
 

epostle1

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  • escape the most severe persecution the devil has ever heaped upon His people through his Antichrist system in Rome - the Papacy, which began to reign in 538 AD and was overthrown in 1798 AD. Today, this "deadly wound" has been healed and "all the world wondered after the beast" is seen through more and more people paying homage, respect, and even defending the most demonic system to ever appear on the stage of history.
The persecution from insane Protestants was worse than anything Catholics were guilty of, you just can't bear to face the truth of the matter.
Protestant Inquisitions: "Reformation" Intolerance & Persecution
All citation are from Protestant and secular scholars (which you never provide)
The Papacy began with Peter, he wasn't alive in 538 AD. The list of Popes can be found in any encyclopedia. Many dictators and kings have tried to destroy the papacy, it can't be done. 1798 saw the Irish Rebellion that had nothing to do with the papacy.
  1. Clement XII (1730-40)
  2. Benedict XIV (1740-58)
  3. Clement XIII (1758-69)
  4. Clement XIV (1769-74)
  5. Pius VI (1775-99)
  6. Pius VII (1800-23)
  7. Leo XII (1823-29)
  8. Pius VIII (1829-30)
Clement XIV was the pope in 1798, so your claim is false. "defending the most demonic system to ever appear on the stage of history" is nothing more than hate speech and false histories. You should tell your doctor; he may have medications to treat your hate psychosis.
 
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Jay Ross

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J thanks for the response. the term PLACE, like in heaven do not mean that the Devil and his angels was actually in heaven. only mean that they have a voice unto God. example, Ephesians 2:5 "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus".
we are not seated physically in any place in heaven, but spiritually have a voice there in Christ. just like Jude, "estate" is not a physical place, but a state of mind. other word have our mind and thoughts on thing ABOVE, (heavenly).

in Rev 12, the war was in the preaching of the Gospel, and the repenting of Sins. Michael here is symbolic for our Lord Jesus. for the name Michael means like God. the casting out is no more authority. Luke 10:1 "After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come". and the report upon returning. Luke 10:17 & 18 "And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven". the war started after our Lord Baptism. and finished on the cross. Revelation 12:9-11 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death".

well if the devil was cast out after his victory on the cross, the statement "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God". because the devil and his demons was already in the earth. because the devil tempted the Lord in the wilderness, right after his baptism. so the statement "NOW" is come salvation, and the Kingdom, had to come after his victory, which puts the devil and his demon on earth already. the war is over. now Grace time, to win souls by the preaching of the Gospel to those who will believe.

Peace in Christ Yeshua.

A second witness from scripture is Isaiah 24:21-22. In the Old Testament Judgement was accompanied/processed through battle.
 

101G

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A second witness from scripture is Isaiah 24:21-22. In the Old Testament Judgement was accompanied/processed through battle.
you loss me on this one. care to explain?.

Peace in Christ Yeshua.