Romans 11 (verse 22)

[Behold]

Jude is exhorting believers to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (vs. 3) because certain ungodly men who have crept in unnoticed. Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit.

The devil, 2000 yrs ago, created this false idea that if you teach the Grace of God, correctly, you are teaching "licence to sin".

Paul, himself, was accused of this very thing because He taught that the Grace of God, is an eternal mercy that deliveres you from judgment for sin, in eternity..= based on the "one time eternal sacrifice of Christ on the Cross for the sin of the World".
The Devil does not want this righteous truth preached and taught correctly, so, he subverted it, and twisted it, into the idea that this Grace of God, is "Licence to sin". And when a person gets that wrong idea in their head, as taught by a HERETIC, it become a spiritual and mental stronghold, that keeps them from being able to understand that God's Grace is not their self effort.
They become lost in trying to perform for God to TRY to be accepted, vs, resting in the Grace of God that is their eternal salvation provided as "the GIFT of Salvation".

 

[mailmandan]

It is very interesting that you left this out:

“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Jude 1:4)

It's interesting that's the only part you focused on and ignored the rest. This is 'descriptive' of pseudo Christians.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Paul is the "Gentile Apostle". And we are in the "time of the Gentiles".
So, Paul's Doctrine, is not directed at JEWS, or at The House of Israel, unless they are "Gentiles".
They are not.
So, Paul's theology, is for the Body of Christ, specifically.

I don't thing your conclusion follows from your premises. Yes, Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles. And yes, we are in the times of the Gentiles. But it does not follow, therefore, that Paul would not teach about the future state of Israel as a whole and the future state of the Gentiles as a whole.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It's interesting that's the only part you focused on and ignored the rest. The is descriptive of pseudo Christians.

Like I always says

the licentious call us legalistic because we hold them accountable for their sins

the legalist calls us licentious because we preach salvation by grace alone and eternal security.

Its like Satan has them so decieved they can't see the middle ground is the truth.

 

[Behold]

I don't thing your conclusion follows from your premises. Yes, Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles. And yes, we are in the times of the Gentiles. But it does not follow, therefore, that Paul would not teach about the future state of Israel as a whole and the future state of the Gentiles as a whole.

Paul was not sent, specifically, to reveal the end times.
He was chosen to reveal the Gospel of the Grace of God, which Jesus gave to HIM personally, and Paul defines as "My Gospel".
He was also responsible for delivering to the body of Christ, what we understand as "church doctrine".

 

[CadyandZoe]

Paul was not sent, specifically, to reveal the end times.
He was chosen to reveal the Gospel of the Grace of God, which Jesus gave to HIM personally, and Paul defines as "My Gospel".
He was also responsible for delivering to the body of Christ, what we understand as "church doctrine".

Not sure how you arrived at that conclusion. But Paul was sent to deliver the word of Jesus Christ, which includes prophecy, but more importantly, he is answering an objection to his gospel made by Jewish contemporaries of his readers, living in Rome at the time. His readers will hear that Paul's gospel can't be true because it causes God's promises to Israel to fail. He answers that his gospel maintains God's promises to Israel and that Israel's failure did not cause the ultimate destruction of Israel. That is, she did not stumble so as to fall.

Here Paul is not talking about individual Jews. Of course, any particular Jew is free to accept Jesus Christ as savior. Nonetheless, God make specific promises to them as a people, taken as a whole.

In that context, Paul says that a partial hardening has happened to Israel (taken as a whole) until the fulness of the Gentiles. He warns the Gentiles not to become arrogant because Gentiles (taken as a whole) were grafted in by faith. If the Gentiles (taken as a whole) ever abandon the faith, God will cut off the Gentiles. (From other passages of scripture, we understand that eventually, the Gentiles will no longer come to faith.)

I'm not saying that your view is wrong. We can find other passages that teach about the perseverance of the saints, just not this one.

 

[Behold]

Not sure how you arrived at that conclusion. But Paul was sent to deliver the word of Jesus Christ, which includes prophecy,.

All the apostles, excluding Judas were "sent to deliver the word of God" and make disciples, as Jesus told them to tell-share-deliver, all that He taught them.

However, Paul was not of that original 12.
Jesus did not tell him that, as Paul was not there to hear it.
He is a special case, as Christ was in Heaven when He called Paul to be a unique Apostle.
He called him APART from the others, because his mission is unique.
He is the ONLY apostle to the Gentiles, and His mission was to start Gentile Churches, and teach Doctrine that HE was given, as nearly 100% of the Doctrine of the body of Christ comes from Paul.

One of the things that dictates to us just how erroneous the Catholic Church's entire religion is exposed to be, is the fact that they chase Peter, and in fact its PAUL who wrote most of the NT, (excluding the Gospels and The REV.) and 99% of the Church Doctrine.
THe "cult of Mary" views Paul as mostly insignifacnt, while they herald around their man created idea of Peter being their 1st Pope.

Paul is the only apostle who told you explicity to follow Him= as He followed Christ... 1 Corinthians 11
Jesus is our Savior, but Paul is our Prime example regarding how to exist as a perfected Child of the Light, in God's service.

 

[CadyandZoe]

All the apostles, excluding Judas were "sent to deliver the word of God" and make disciples, as Jesus told them to tell-share-deliver, all that He taught them.

However, Paul was not of that original 12.
Jesus did not tell him that, as Paul was not there to hear it.
He is a special case, as Christ was in Heaven when He called Paul to be a unique Apostle.
He called him APART from the others, because his mission is unique.
He is the ONLY apostle to the Gentiles, and His mission was to start Gentile Churches, and teach Doctrine that HE was given, as nearly 100% of the Doctrine of the body of Christ comes from Paul.

One of the things that dictates to us just how erroneous the Catholic Church's entire religion is exposed to be, is the fact that they chase Peter, and in fact its PAUL who wrote most of the NT, (excluding the Gospels and The REV.) and 99% of the Church Doctrine.
THe "cult of Mary" views Paul as mostly insignifacnt, while they herald around their man created idea of Peter being their 1st Pope.

Paul is the only apostle who told you explicity to follow Him= as He followed Christ... 1 Corinthians 11
Jesus is our Savior, but Paul is our Prime example regarding how to exist as a perfected Child of the Light, in God's service.

None of what you say defeats my interpretation of the passage.

 

[Behold]

None of what you say defeats my interpretation of the passage.

First of all, if you believe you can lose your salvation, then you have no real faith in Christ.

Also,

Im not here to defeat you.
If you are in a debate then find another person who cares about that, as im not that person.

So, if yo have that type of ear, you'll never hear more then you know, and that will cause you to be in the same place 30 yrs from now, spiritually, that you are now.
See, the bible is a book of progressive revelation, and Christianity is a walk of faith that is never stagnant unless its dead.
We can have a conversation, but if you are looking to prove something, then run along.
Im not here to debate.
I just teach, and God reveals.

 

[Jim B]

All the apostles, excluding Judas were "sent to deliver the word of God" and make disciples, as Jesus told them to tell-share-deliver, all that He taught them.

However, Paul was not of that original 12.
Jesus did not tell him that, as Paul was not there to hear it.
He is a special case, as Christ was in Heaven when He called Paul to be a unique Apostle.
He called him APART from the others, because his mission is unique.
He is the ONLY apostle to the Gentiles, and His mission was to start Gentile Churches, and teach Doctrine that HE was given, as nearly 100% of the Doctrine of the body of Christ comes from Paul.

One of the things that dictates to us just how erroneous the Catholic Church's entire religion is exposed to be, is the fact that they chase Peter, and in fact its PAUL who wrote most of the NT, (excluding the Gospels and The REV.) and 99% of the Church Doctrine.
THe "cult of Mary" views Paul as mostly insignifacnt, while they herald around their man created idea of Peter being their 1st Pope.

Paul is the only apostle who told you explicity to follow Him= as He followed Christ... 1 Corinthians 11
Jesus is our Savior, but Paul is our Prime example regarding how to exist as a perfected Child of the Light, in God's service.

Great post! I have been trying to make this point for a long time. I was even thrown off a Catholic subforum elsewhere because of challenging (flawed) Peter's role.

 

[CadyandZoe]

First of all, if you believe you can lose your salvation, then you have no real faith in Christ.

Maybe, God is patient. One might change their mind under the direction of the Holy Spirit. But I never claimed that people can lose their salvation. My only claim in this thread is that we can't use Romans 11 to prove the case. That's all.

Im not here to debate.

Okay, you are here to prove your case from scripture. I get that. I'm simply here to make your case stronger by eliminating passages that don't help you.

 

[Behold]

Okay, you are here to prove your case from scripture. I get that. I'm simply here to make your case stronger by eliminating passages that don't help you.

And in your mind, im sure you believe you have.
I meet a lot like you on forums.
The good news, is that i meet a lot like the person who posted right after you posted to me that i didnt make my case, or that your's isn't defeated.
If you go and find that very next post, you'll discovered that what you didnt get, or understand, or realize yet, ... they did after reading what i taught.
They got it. You didnt.
So, that is how it is when i teach, or when any real teacher teaches.
The classroom is all watching, but not everyone is hearing.....not everyone is seeing.
And THAT part, is not my part.....as im just the relayer of the Pauline Theology.

 

[Behold]

And the teachings of Paul are the teachings of the Lord (1 Corinthians 14:37) and are for anyone, wether Jew or Greek (Colossians 3:11), with ears to hear and a heart to believe.

Paul's epistlse are certainly doctrinally designed for the body of Christ., and "Paul's Gospel" is designed for the unbelievers.
No doubt.
And something more... When Paul and Peter were alive, Peter said that Paul's letters, were equal to the Torah. they were/are "Scripture".
So, that is an Apostle apraising Paul's letters as equal to the OLD TESTAMENT.
And Peter was right, as Paul's epistles became most of the New Testament, excluding the Gospels and The Revelation.

 

[CadyandZoe]

And in your mind, im sure you believe you have.
I meet a lot like you on forums.
The good news, is that i meet a lot like the person who posted right after you posted to me that i didnt make my case, or that your's isn't defeated.
If you go and find that very next post, you'll discovered that what you didnt get, or understand, or realize yet, ... they did after reading what i taught.
They got it. You didnt.
So, that is how it is when i teach, or when any real teacher teaches.
The classroom is all watching, but not everyone is hearing.....not everyone is seeing.
And THAT part, is not my part.....as im just the relayer of the Pauline Theology.

The reason why a lot of people agree with you is that these folks also misunderstand Romans 11. You are wrong and so are they. Don't take agreement as proof.

Paul is not talking about individual people in Romans 11. If you weren't a teacher, you would ask me to prove it. But apparently you have fallen victim to a common occupational hazard among teachers: an exaggerated sense of one's own abilities. Take care with that.

 

[Behold]

The reason why a lot of people agree with you is that these folks also misunderstand Romans 11. You are wrong and so are they. .

You keep feeling the need to state that you have proven something.
But all you've proven is that you can say that a few more times, as if its true.

So....Your opinion, is again, noted.
And you are still trying to find a debate, as you are caught up in this mindset.
You can let that go now and relax, CadyandZoe.
See, the reality is, my THREAD is as clear as a BELL, to those who can hear the words of Paul.

I explained, as the verse teaches, that if you continue in "GOD's Goodness."
And the heretic, the cultist, the Legalist... all teach that this is your trying to be good, trying to be holy, and if you dont, then ..... ZAP...
=hell bound.
So, If a person who claims to be a student of the word, cannot read simple english and discern that GOD's GOODNESS, to continue in IT is not YOUR self effort, then as i said.... you are welcome to your theological opinion.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You keep feeling the need to state that you have proven something.
But all you've proven is that you can say that a few more times, as if its true.

So....Your opinion, is again, noted.
And you are still trying to find a debate, as you are caught up in this mindset.
You can let that go now and relax, CadyandZoe.
See, the reality is, my THREAD is as clear as a BELL, to those who can hear the words of Paul.

I explained, as the verse teaches, that if you continue in "GOD's Goodness."
And the heretic, the cultist, the Legalist... all teach that this is your trying to be good, trying to be holy, and if you dont, then ..... ZAP...
=hell bound.
So, If a person who claims to be a student of the word, cannot read simple english and discern that GOD's GOODNESS, to continue in IT is not YOUR self effort, then as i said.... you are welcome to your theological opinion.

I haven't read your thread. But your interpretation of Romans 11 is in error. If you don't care about error then what does that say about your approach? Why would I want to read the thread of someone who doesn't care about error?

 

[Behold]

Why would I want to read the thread of someone who doesn't care about error?

If you didnt read the Thread, then you dont know what i teach, regarding this Thread.
So, you offered your opinion, having not read my THread.
That's not very intellectionally honest.....but it is very opinionated and self deceived.

Here is the thing.
Ive read what you've written, and most of it, just says...>"no you are wrong there"
.

So...Let me give you the verse, that is the context of my Thread.

"The Goodness of God".

See that?

That is not you doing it.
THat is not me doing it.
That is not water baptism.
THat is not taking the sacraments.
THat is not trying to be like Christ.


"God's Goodness", is GOD's, and its His Goodness that is the Gift of Salvation, that is the Cross of Christ, delivered to us as a GIFT, that is "God's goodness".

 

[CadyandZoe]

If you didnt read the Thread, then you dont know what i teach, regarding this Thread.
So, you offered your opinion, having not read my THread.

Yes, I offered my opinion on your interpretation of Romans 11, which is woefully incorrect. My point regarding Romans 11 and my objection to your interpretation stands apart from the rest of the thread. Romans 11 doesn't support your contention, and as I said, the fact that Romans 11 doesn't support your contention doesn't mean that we can't find other passages of scripture that does.

 

[Behold]

Yes, I offered my opinion on your interpretation of Romans 11, which is woefully incorrect. .

"God's Goodness".
That's not your self effort.
Believe it.

 

[CadyandZoe]

"God's Goodness".
That's not your self effort.
Believe it.

Of course.
But we were talking about your interpretation of Romans 11, which doesn't speak about individuals; it speaks about Israel as a nation.